PSA: splitting the team in ranked is fine!

[vak_]

Where did the perverse mentality of "never splitting the team" come from? I don't recall this being around in previous ranked seasons, but now a few times when the team heads to a cap and I suggested that one of our DDs should contest the other cap someone will start complaining about "not splitting the team". Just had a game where I had to go to a cap by myself in an Atago, because having 3 DDs on cap A in Northern Lights is apparently the best strat evar (I capped just fine, we won, I was top by XP).

 

Here is a short advice for all the people like that: splitting the team by sending one DD away is fine. You know what's not fine, though? Giving up one cap completely -- which, if captured by the enemy and then left alone, will generate a point differential as much as a couple kills quite fast.

 

Let's review the possible scenarios of our DD arriving at the other cap:

(1) Nobody is there. Our DD caps, giving us a big over-time advantage

(2) One enemy DD is there. Great, we didn't give up a big over-time advantage to the enemy team for free! Now it's a 50/50 toss-up for cap control

(3) The entire enemy team is at that cap. Our DD spots the enemy team first (since it has a concealment advantage over big surface ships), and then flexes back to the team, or maybe kites the enemy fleet and spams torpedoes. If DD gets in trouble, he can always use smoke to disengage.

 

Again, sending one DD away to a separate cap is a net benefit to the team, unless you literally only have one destroyer, and need it for screening.

[Zhoyzu]

i try to suggest this but its always the guy with a 40% winrate and not even avg stats that flips out and then the team all goes one way. Shame really. I just have to carry harder

[klymar8]

I am in agreement with you . Now if the people that need to read this would look at the forums and be awake and online at this time of day .

[SgtBeltfed]

My usual plan if I'm in an IJN DD if I start near the cap we're not going for is "Gonna Ninja <insert cap here> or dump torps and run." Sometimes people follow me, for better or worse.

[IceSerpen7]

 

Let's review the possible scenarios of our DD arriving at the other cap:

(1) Nobody is there. Our DD caps, giving us a big over-time advantage

(2) One enemy DD is there. Great, we didn't give up a big over-time advantage to the enemy team for free! Now it's a 50/50 toss-up for cap control

(3) The entire enemy team is at that cap. Our DD spots the enemy team first (since it has a concealment advantage over big surface ships), and then flexes back to the team, or maybe kites the enemy fleet and spams torpedoes.

 

 

Those are possible scenarios from the Land of Rainbows and Unicorns ™...scenarios from reality unfortunately tend to go like this:

 

1. Nobody is there. That DD caps, the DDs on the other cap die in seconds because they are down a DD (and red team knows that they are one man short because cap process is visible to both teams).

2. One enemy DD is there and your DD that went there is a Fubuki that dies in seconds to enemy Benson (optional: your DD is Benson, enemy DD is Benson, but red team parked a CA in spot where it can shoot at both caps...bonus points for that CA having radar)

3. Entire red team is at that cap. Your DD dies not even in seconds, but in milliseconds. Each team caps their cap point an you're left trying to figure out how to pull a win while being one DD short.

[RedSeaBear]

I'm generally not a fan of splitting the team, because I see a lot of team splitting and just going everywhere but toward the caps or any cap. But it is handy when the destroyers can get eyes on both caps. Than if the main fleet is smart they will move to the cap that is empty or lightly defended. I've helped win many games by being the DD that secured the other cap the red team has ignored. Its a tough play to pull, taking one cap and denying the other. But when it comes to gather its beautiful. 

[Quarantine_CVs]

The issue is when a BB or a CA tries to solo a cap and gets annihilated within the first minute, because they are unable to escape. Sending a DD is fine though, because they're hard to hit, have smoke, and have the stealth to (probably) get away if they get into an unfavorable engagement.

[vak_]

Nobody is there. That DD caps, the DDs on the other cap die in seconds because they are down a DD

 

No, not at all. Firepower doesn't matter all that much, since everything in that cap will get covered in smoke so fast at the start of the match. Yes, DDs will often die when they catch a torpedo -- but having an extra friendly DD in that cap won't prevent this.

 

One enemy DD is there and your DD that went there is a Fubuki that dies in seconds to enemy Benson

 

As I said, a 50/50. Who says it won't be your Benson that kills their Fubuki? Which would have capped if there was no opposition.

 

Entire red team is at that cap. Your DD dies not even in seconds, but in milliseconds

 

A DD has to make a pretty big blunder to die like that.

(1) Enemy capital ships will be visible before the friendly DD is spotted by the enemy DD at that cap. Plenty of time to turn around.

(2) Even if spotted unexpectedly, friendly DD will immediately pop smoke and turn around. He's very unlikely to get killed in the short amount of time he's visible

 

 

PS I take it you're one of the people that I talk about in my first post? If so, STAHP IT

[vak_]

The issue is when a BB or a CA tries to solo a cap and gets annihilated within the first minute

 

I specifically talked about DDs in my post. It's very easy to disengage for them, due to low concealment and smoke.

 

Now, while it is a bit off-topic, I'll discuss your point. You can sometimes do solo caps in ships other than DDs, but you have to know what you're doing and be confident in your skills. I've done solo caps in Atago a couple times at the start of matches (once today, actually). You can get there in reasnable amount of time at 37kts (with flag), with 9.1km concealment it's still possible to disengage if need be, you'll blow any enemy DD (or even two DDs) out of the water with ease if they're there alone, and 2x4 10km torp spreads are pretty deadly when fired into smoke at caps. Cruisers are somewhat under-appreciated in the current ranked meta tbh.

[Grevester]

Highly situational. I've seen plenty of teams lose by sending one DD to the other cap to say it's not fine.

[vak_]

Highly situational. I've seen plenty of teams lose by sending one DD to the other cap to say it's not fine.

 

(1) As if those teams would definitely win if the DD was there

(2) I've seen plenty of teams lose by giving up a free cap at the start.

[MrDeaf]

The difference is, if you can pull off a cap in complete safety or have enough island cover to retreat before taking too much damage.

 

North spawn on North has a small advantage at B cap, because it can park a ship at the very inner edge of B and remain impossible to hit, due to how tall the island is.

etc.

[Compassghost]

Split the team like this, and you will forever scratch your head.

 

[Grevester]

 

(1) As if those teams would definitely win if the DD was there

(2) I've seen plenty of teams lose by giving up a free cap at the start.

 

thanks for agreeing that it's situational.

[Quarantine_CVs]

I specifically talked about DDs in my post. It's very easy to disengage for them, due to low concealment and smoke.

 

​Yes, and I was agreeing with your point.

Now, while it is a bit off-topic, I'll discuss your point. You can sometimes do solo caps in ships other than DDs, but you have to know what you're doing and be confident in your skills. I've done solo caps in Atago a couple times at the start of matches (once today, actually). You can get there in reasnable amount of time at 37kts (with flag), with 9.1km concealment it's still possible to disengage if need be, you'll blow any enemy DD (or even two DDs) out of the water with ease if they're there alone, and 2x4 10km torp spreads are pretty deadly when fired into smoke at caps.

 

If you're caught in open water and most of the enemy fleet can fire on you, it's really not easy to simply disengage in a cruiser if it's a DD spotting you. The DD can keep tailing you and have no issues keeping up, keeping you spotted as BBs start lolpenning you. Granted, if you turn away early enough, you'll probably be fine --- but if you overextend, it's very hard to correct your mistake.

 

You also mentioned being confident in your skills, which I completely agree with, but you also have to remember that in the r2-5 bracket (which we're both in --- played a few games with you) that a lot of the BB players are very good. If you get spotted and one decides to engage you, your tactics to avoid BB shells in random battles and in the other brackets might not work. I've seen a lot of players get a bit too cocky and overextend, overestimating their ability to kite and get away while underestimating the ability of their opponents. I've done it myself a few times --- my poor Chapayev didn't last too long

 

Cruisers are somewhat under-appreciated in the current ranked meta tbh.

 

I think the issue is that it's much harder to carry in a cruiser than in a BB or DD. Cruisers are very important for the success of a team, but they don't get rewarded as well for it. Almost every game, at least one BB will get high caliber and the DDs will get some nice capping XP. Cruisers usually don't deal as much damage, and they usually don't cap. We're support ships, and our success is largely dependent on our team. If BBs refuse to push, we can't really do anything --- if we try to lead the push, we'll usually get spotted and blown to bits by big guns. If DDs refuse to cap, we feel kind of useless for the same reason.

 

I'm speaking as a Chapayev player though (playing passively for the first leg of the match, radarring for my team every 2 minutes until most ships are dead --- then I can try to push in), so my experience was probably different than yours in your Atago (which can play more aggressively due to heal, concealment, torps, and guns that can shred other cruisers in duels).

[IceSerpen7]

 

No, not at all. Firepower doesn't matter all that much, since everything in that cap will get covered in smoke so fast at the start of the match. Yes, DDs will often die when they catch a torpedo -- but having an extra friendly DD in that cap won't prevent this.

 

On the contrary, it matters quite a bit - at least one DD has to be spotting. When those spotting DDs bump into each other the one that has less firepower backing him up usually dies. Not to mention that red team can simply decide to push into your smoke as soon as they realize that you're short one ship. Just pop hydro on a Bismark and rush the cap.

 

As I said, a 50/50. Who says it won't be your Benson that kills their Fubuki? Which would have capped if there was no opposition.

 

It may be...or it my be our Benson just dying there because red team had an Atago or MK trailing that Fubuki - you never know.

 

A DD has to make a pretty big blunder to die like that.

(1) Enemy capital ships will be visible before the friendly DD is spotted by the enemy DD at that cap. Plenty of time to turn around.

(2) Even if spotted unexpectedly, friendly DD will immediately pop smoke and turn around. He's very unlikely to get killed in the short amount of time he's visible

 

It's situational - caps in ranked are pretty close to each other, so you can't always tell which way those BBs are actually going. Also, if that BB is NC you probably won't spot it prior to bumping into enemy DDs. If you're spotted and the whole enemy team is in range you can easily die before completing that U-turn. All it takes is a couple good hits from a BB or CA.

PS I take it you're one of the people that I talk about in my first post? If so, STAHP IT

 

Nu-uh!

It's safer to go to a single cap first - your worst case scenario is an even fight (red team either goes to the same cap or to the other one), your best case scenario is red team doing what you've suggested and contests the cap in question with smaller numbers.

 

 

[vak_]

thanks for agreeing that it's situational.

 

It's not situational. It's the best strategy at the start of the match, i.e. one that will lead to favorable outcomes most often.

 

The only time when it isn't applicable is when you have just one destroyer on the team (somebody has to screen).

[Grevester]

 

It's not situational. It's the best strategy at the start of the match, i.e. one that will lead to favorable outcomes most often.

 

The only time when it isn't applicable is when you have just one destroyer on the team (somebody has to screen).

 

more often for who? If both teams do it, then it only works half the time. Might even lose the dd. 

In my ~30 games this season alone, I have encouraged my team to focus a cap at the start. Have only lost 3 stars this season, out of ~7 game losses. In previous seasons, it has always been more favourable to stick to one cap or the smaller force may be overwhelmed easily.

So, unless you got something other than anecdotal [edited], don't go declaring things.

 

[Killjoy1941]

 

It's not situational. It's the best strategy at the start of the match, i.e. one that will lead to favorable outcomes most often.

 

The only time when it isn't applicable is when you have just one destroyer on the team (somebody has to screen).

 

It is situational. The value of a detached element is entirely dependent upon its own skill. If a player who doesn't possess the necessary skills to contest/take a secondary objective advances on one, that player is very likely to put the enemy team up on points, ships, and caps.

 

That mandatory kind of skill self-assessment isn't generally going to show in a semi-random match, so keeping the team cohesive and mutually supporting is by far the safer play.

[vak_]

If you're caught in open water and most of the enemy fleet can fire on you, it's really not easy to simply disengage in a cruiser if it's a DD spotting you

 

Which is why I said that soloing a cap in CA is situational. You have to read the tactical situation well, use terrain to your advantage, be fairly confident in your ability to quickly kill a DD that pops from behind terrain, dodge enemy BB salvos or torpedoes. It's not a strat for the average player.

 

You also mentioned being confident in your skills, which I completely agree with, but you also have to remember that in the r2-5 bracket (which we're both in --- played a few games with you) that a lot of the BB players are very good

 

I'm still in 6-10 actually, so it's not that bad I've ran Atago three times, did separate solo cap push twice, both times successfully. I do agree, that at 1-5 soloing caps in a cruiser will get punished much heavier, but again, on some maps it will still remain a good strat (e.g. Neighbors and Atlantic, where there is plenty of terrain for cover leading up to one of the caps, so it's easy to get a drop on an un-suspecting DD, or to GTFO while being covered by terrain).

 

In a DD, on the other hand, even a mediocre player can disengage with ease, as long as smoke is up.

 

I think the issue is that it's much harder to carry in a cruiser than in a BB or DD

 

I agree -- they can't cap as well as DDs, or tank damage and output damage as well as a BB. But there is definitely room for Chappy and Atago in the current meta -- the former because it has radar and quick-firing guns with flat shell trajectories, the latter because it's fast, has great HE and decent concealment. Most BB players run Bismarck/Tirpitz, so their 15" guns are less of a threat to cruisers (as opposed to 16"), and IJN 8" HE salvos do a decent amount of damage to superstructures and light fires.

[vak_]

If both teams do it, then it only works half the time

 

If both teams are doing it, that becomes a 50/50 toss-up. If only one team does it and the other doesn't, then the former team will get a free cap. That's what optimal strategies do -- they provide the best probabilistic outcome. Do you want me to draw a decision matrix?

 

In my ~30 games this season... Have only lost 3 stars

 

n=30 is minuscule for deciding whether this or that strat leads to victory.

 

So, unless you got something other than anecdotal [edited], don't go declaring things.

 

You're the one with anecdotal evidence. I've got logic on my side.

[vak_]

The value of a detached element is entirely dependent upon its own skill. If a player who doesn't possess the necessary skills to contest/take a secondary objective advances on one, that player is very likely to put the enemy team up on points, ships, and caps.

 

(1) If the enemy team follows the strat you all favor, and doesn't send anybody to the other cap, that that player will get a free cap, even if he's a complete potato

(2) So you're claiming that the person to be send off sucks too much to be trusted alone, but somehow having him around with your team will provide a large enough edge to offset a probable cap loss? Mkay.

[Misniso]

 

(1) If the enemy team follows the strat you all favor, and doesn't send anybody to the other cap, that that player will get a free cap, even if he's a complete potato

(2) So you're claiming that the person to be send off sucks too much to be trusted alone, but somehow having him around with your team will provide a large enough edge to offset a probable cap loss? Mkay.

 

#1 is kind of rare.  Most likely the enemy team uses the same strategy (sending a destroyer to the other cap), or their entire fleet goes that way.  

 

In the first case, it comes down to which player is better at knife fighting with a destroyer.

 

In the second, some DD players continue trying to seize the cap even though they can visually see that every enemy ship went their way.  Then they get spotted by an enemy DD.

 

#2 means that the captain really needs to know what he's doing.  It sounds easy on paper but you need many games to make lots of mistakes before you learn the do's and don'ts of stealth capping.  Most DD captains are capable of fighting in a fleet situation and dropping torps.  It's when you get to the advanced stuff like running away, smoking strategies, and knowing when to retreat that you start losing possible players.

[vak_]

is kind of rare.  Most likely the enemy team uses the same strategy (sending a destroyer to the other cap), or their entire fleet goes that way.  

 

There is a contradiction there, since you seem to be trying to justify not sending a DD to the other cap with the fact that the other team will send their DD there. Okay, you just gave up a free cap, great. Now you are losing points, and have additional pressure of trying to re-capture that cap, which will (gasp) most likely split up the team.

 

Most DD captains are capable of fighting in a fleet situation and dropping torps.  It's when you get to the advanced stuff like running away, smoking strategies, and knowing when to retreat that you start losing possible players.

 

The "smoke strategy" you're referring to is literally just hitting T key, and then Q or E twice (and then twice more after a 180 turn) after you get in trouble. If a player doesn't know how to do this, then I sure as hell don't want him to be launching torpedoes around me

[Edgecase]

It's situational based on team composition and map IMO. If you only have one DD, don't send it to the far point. And yes, I've had a number of games with only one DD. I've also had games with 5 DDs per team, in which case it's stupid to try and jam them all into one point, because the chance of random torp hits goes up. Map matters, because splitting the team on Northern Lights is a big commitment, while splitting on Neighbors is less so.

 

My personal favorite detachment is a Benson and a fast cruiser like Chapayev or Kutuzov to B, while the rest of the team skirmishes at A. It beats the single or double destroyer "peek", keeps your CA away from the BBs, and on some maps, it puts both A and B in radar range simultaneously.