It's time to lay down that Bismarck nerf

[Braize]

We all know it, this ship is way over the top. There is a reason why everyone in ranked is playing this ship, and it's not because it under performs. There is a reason why constantly we see full Bismarck divisions in Random Battle, and more Bismarcks than any other ship in ranked play.

 

The secondaries plus long lasting Hydro are already enough, but lets take a look at the armor on this thing.

 

The Bismarck defender will love to tell you that "The Bismarck has the same armor as the Tirpitz." But we all know that this simply is not true. Let's take a look at patch 5.9 when the Tirpitz had it's armor reworked. Before this patch, the Tirpitz was just simply impossible to penetrate outside sheer luck. People just got to the point where they just simply used HE against a Tirpitz because it was realistically the only way to do reliable damage to it. Fast forward to patch 5.9, and now the Tirpitz takes the beating that it's supposed to. No longer can these Tirpitz players just sit in the middle of the map full broadside and bounce everything that gets thrown it's way, and the people rejoiced..... yahhhhhh...

 

But if you need more proof, check out the armor layout of the Tirpitz, and compare that to the Bismarck. More importantly, check out the value of the main armor belt and the armor of the turrets. You will clearly see the difference in armor values. The bottom armor belt and turret armor of the Bismarck is massive and clearly out of balance. This is probably why people are talking about the armor scheme of the Bismarck, but it seems that the values compared to the Tirpitz are just simply higher.

 

So lets also look at the other Bismarck features. The secondaries are rivaled by only the Yamato, and this is at tier 8. With captain skills and your mods, you will shoot over 10km with your secondaries. We have all seen this in action. Meanwhile , the Tirpitz has half the range and half the damage. This isn't even historically accurate let alone be allowed in our games. 

 

We can also take a look at the Bismarck's Hydro. The Hydro on a Bismarck lasts for 2 minutes. Let's also note, that the Bismarck's Hydro has 3.8km torpedo acquisition, and 5.6km ship acquisition. Not even the Des Moines has a better Hydro than this. Let me state this again..... The Bismarck has the best Hydroacustics in the game. Any battleship player will trade in their AA and their Tirpitz torpedoes for this Hydro.

 

This ship is clearly broken/overpowered/out of balance/whatever word you want to use.

[6Xero9]

This isn't even historically accurate let alone be allowed in our games. 

 

I coulda swore secondaries on BBs were equal to primaries on cruisers? Or am i mistaken?

[BlailBlerg]

 

I coulda swore secondaries on BBs were equal to primaries on cruisers? Or am i mistaken?

 

I think hes talking about it being twice the range of tirpitz.  

all real life ranges have been like halved in the game.  

 

did the real life bismarck also have torps though?  

 

Honestly, this ship seems a little too good. 

[Noshiro_]

How to beat a bismarck: Stay further than 10.7km

[Braize]

 

I coulda swore secondaries on BBs were equal to primaries on cruisers? Or am i mistaken?

 

Hello Xero. The secondaries on all BBs should shoot well below the range of a cruiser's primary guns, and in game they do for very good reason. These comments about secondaries are more geared towards the Bismarck at tier 8 play, and also how the Bismarck has by far the superior secondaries compared to the Tirpitz, which is not accurate at all let alone be considered for game balance.

[atPrick__]

After seeing my first one in random on the first day of its release I figured it would take about two months to get nerfed. iirc thats about how long OG Kiev lasted before WG caved to the screams of a certain portion of the player base.

 

Its hilariously out of balance and stats prove it. Be it lifetime stats, two week, dailys, ranked, random, Maple Syrup or WarToday... whatever, all of them.

 

[MrDeaf]

How to beat a bismarck: Stay further than 10.7km

 

not even 10.7km is necessary, if you are in a DD.

 

Benson can invisifire from 9.6km

Fubuki can invisifire from 9.4km ish

 

and, even if you are spotted at those ranges, a majority of fire from Bz secondaries can easily be WASD, just like any other ship.

[Compassghost]

You're talking about this armor right?

 

[atPrick__]

 

Then again....

 

Its a Battleship.

 

So its likely nothing will happen.

 

I foresee much claims of salt, popcorn, screams in agony about how the ship is just fine and working as intended.

 

Meanwhile, a line of Destroyers gets [edited]wrecked. Ships that I invested many, many hours to unlock and nobody bats an eye.

 

So who knows, WG has a long history of keeping the BB mains happy. How long did it take for the Tomato to get nerfed? a year? Iowa had that weird HE superstructure problem for months before WG did anything.

 

This could be exactly what WG wants...

 

[CaliburxZero]

Its funny, because there are many other BBs with an amazing secondary setup for manuals.  I bet you anything the people crying for this nerf are the same who are upset that I can use my secondaries to rush in with hydro and devastate their amazingly dynamic "sit in smoke and set things on fire advanced play".  

 

Calling it now.

 

Don't like it?  Well, other BBs can do this too.  The KM T9-10 BBs can, and Yamato is pretty good at this too.  Oh well, this just further motivates me to shut down DDs with the setup.

 

Re-reading the OP i find it cute how the OP also just convieniently forgets Kurfurst/Friedrich's Acoustic and Secondary setup.  Sorry, your agenda is showing.  Where did the bad bismarck touch you in ranked?

[Battlecruiser_Amagi]

No. It's a brawler. It's MEANT to push. It's got the things that enable it to do so, and so it's fine. It's a poor sniper. It will fare worse against, say, an NC at 15+ KM. It will demolish said NC if under 10 KM, however.

 

[Braize]

Then again....

 

Its a Battleship.

 

So its likely nothing will happen.

 

I foresee much claims of salt, popcorn, screams in agony about how the ship is just fine and working as intended.

 

Meanwhile, a line of Destroyers gets [edited]wrecked. Ships that I invested many, many hours to unlock and nobody bats an eye.

 

So who knows, WG has a long history of keeping the BB mains happy. How long did it take for the Tomato to get nerfed? a year? Iowa had that weird HE superstructure problem for months before WG did anything.

 

This could be exactly what WG wants...

 

As much as it would normally be easy to flame and put the tin foil hat on about this subject, it is very accurate. We all knew how stupid OP the Yamato was (and still is to be honest) and how long the broken Iowa was allowed to be in play.

 

Now, let's also look at the people who defended that Yamato and Iowa....... Pretty much the same thing now about the Bismarck.

[MrDeaf]

You're talking about this armor right?

 

yup, I did the same thing to a Tirpitz, using Nagato at >18km.

 

The armor is only troll when it's in your face, but even then, if it's showing broadside to shoot secondaries, then this can be exploited easily.

 

Using a Hindenburg, if you catch the thing broadside, the 203mm AP alpha can reach up to 20k from a single salvo.

Even hipper wouldn't do so badly, with 13,333dmg salvo to a broadside Tirp/Bz.

[HazeGrayUnderway]

You're talking about this armor right?

 

Ahh, North Carolina...

 

 

[atPrick__]

Its funny, because there are many other BBs with an amazing secondary setup for manuals.  I bet you anything the people crying for this nerf are the same who are upset that I can use my secondaries to rush in with hydro and devastate their amazingly dynamic "sit in smoke and set things on fire advanced play".  

 

Calling it now.

 

Don't like it?  Well, other BBs can do this too.  The KM T9-10 BBs can, and Yamato is pretty good at this too.  Oh well, this just further motivates me to shut down DDs with the setup.

 

Re-reading the OP i find it cute how the OP also just convieniently forgets Kurfurst/Friedrich's Acoustic and Secondary setup.  Sorry, your agenda is showing.  Where did the bad bismarck touch you in ranked?

 

You dont have to do anything.

 

WG does it for you already.

 

Radar, Sonar, every plane type, Manual secondaries, improved rudder shift modules etc. etc. etc.

 

Or WG just outright changes the detection on torpedoes, sometimes they just remove torpedo types completely, nerfs RoF, a DDs HP etc. etc. etc.

 

God forbid WG adjusts any Battleship, sometimes they talk about it and sometimes they plan it but it never happens. Or... Rarely, Yamy was but that was due to the death screams of Monty players....

[MikeLapTrap]

 

You dont have to do anything.

 

WG does it for you already.

 

Radar, Sonar, every plane type, Manual secondaries, improved rudder shift modules etc. etc. etc.

 

Or WG just outright changes the detection on torpedoes, sometimes they just remove torpedo types completely, nerfs RoF, a DDs HP etc. etc. etc.

 

God forbid WG adjusts any Battleship, sometimes they talk about it and sometimes they plan it but it never happens. Or... Rarely, Yamy was but that was due to the death screams of Monty players....

 

Dont forget that one time that they had limited ammunition for torpedo's

[SteelClaw]

I see we have some of the forum i whine about everything crew in here. 

[atPrick__]

I see we have some of the forum i whine about everything crew in here. 

 

yeah thats it.

 

Say something is over performing and immediately its whining, salt this, confirmation bias that...

 

yawn

 

Go play ranked, Biz aint that hard to kill. Was doing it all night long but... there is a reason why players that have Tirp, Amagi, NC and Biz in port are choosing one over the other right now.

[CaliburxZero]

 

You dont have to do anything.

 

WG does it for you already.

 

Radar, Sonar, every plane type, Manual secondaries, improved rudder shift modules etc. etc. etc.

 

Or WG just outright changes the detection on torpedoes, sometimes they just remove torpedo types completely, nerfs RoF, a DDs HP etc. etc. etc.

 

God forbid WG adjusts any Battleship, sometimes they talk about it and sometimes they plan it but it never happens. Or... Rarely, Yamy was but that was due to the death screams of Monty players....

 

Yamato isn't OP from itself.  Its OP from current penetration mechanics.  Honestly, i wouldn't mind seeing overmatch mechanics giving CAs more survivability and Yamato's ability to LOL pen things reduced.  But that's a different can of worms.

 

I have no issues when it comes to dealing with DDs, but I do like to push.  But hey, if you would like to ruin Bismarck's strengths so that your precious DDs won't have to think about just laughing in smoke dumping torps and HE fire without risk aside from other DDs or very good CVs you go  do that.  Few people are willing to push in BBs due to their lack of maneuverability as is and frankly, the main reason why people cry about Bismarck over the T9 and 10 equivalents is simply because mobility for T9-10 for battleships in general is horrid so kurfurst and friedrich can't reliably push without suffering heavy damage for it, and as a Bismarck player i'll do it anyway sometimes to give the team morale in order to be aggressive. 

 

What is the end result?  Well, hydro and the secondaries are clearly meant for brawling and dealing with DDs.  The hydro is so powerful to protect the bad mobility of BBs.  Why do BBs have bad mobility?  Well buddy, check back at CBT changes.  

 

Its due to CV and DD player whining.  Sirus_Patton made a thread about this a bit back.  So you don't like how Bismarck is able to shred things like this?  Well guess what, these are all bandaid balancing measures because BBs in the first place have issues pushing.  Why does nobody whine about Yamato's secondaries?  Because simply, everyone quietly is happy with the fact that at that range, the Yamato is in alot of trouble anyway and doesn't have the mobility.  

 

Face it.  You aren't happy you can't charge this battleship without heavy risk and it flips the easy give-me kills on running up on it.  And aside from people wanting secondaries to not suck, this all stems back from the whining of DD players crying incessantly that they couldn't hit BBs well with torpedoes.  Its a vicious cycle that was ironically started by no less, DD players.  

 

Welcome to the effects of selfish crying and what kind of tone it sets for all the subsequent balancing.  This forum's sad, pathetic sensational "blame it on the baBBies!" is funny really.  Its painfully ironic.  

 

 

[CaliburxZero]

 

yeah thats it.

 

Say something is over performing and immediately its whining, salt this, confirmation bias that...

 

yawn

 

Go play ranked, Biz aint that hard to kill. Was doing it all night long but... there is a reason why players that have Tirp, Amagi, NC and Biz in port are choosing one over the other right now.

 

Yeah, and that's the hilarious DD spam.  Oh noes, BB players don't want to eat torps?!  Sorry, we aren't your EXP pinatas for your amusement.  I eat the tears of people who cry like this because their DD can't just freely sit in stealth and torp things then spam HE from smoke.  

 

Loving every minute of people saying these things.

[Aussie_Aussie_Aussie]

UM so I would be gald to have the Bismarks sec reduced if the accuracy was buffed no problem... either way adapt or perish OP ..

[CaliburxZero]

So let me say this.  If you don't like these things, and the tools given to compensate for a very poor meta in brawling for BBs... well its due to those very bad, mobility nerfs due to DD and CV whining.  All of the BBs crying about OP torps stems from this.  Their ability to angle and dodge correctly was hindered.  Everything was slowly changed around that.  Bismarck is the product of creating a ship that can exist in the sad nerfed mobility state for brawling.

 

And the older DD/CV players for their whining is to blame.  Check back on CBT forums and dig it up or find Sirus' thread about this.  Irony at its finest.  

 

Enjoy the mess that the crying you fault BB players for for your very own predecessor's whining, perpetuating the entire situation before you.

 

*mic drop*

[atPrick__]

 

Yamato isn't OP from itself.  Its OP from current penetration mechanics.  Honestly, i wouldn't mind seeing overmatch mechanics giving CAs more survivability and Yamato's ability to LOL pen things reduced.  But that's a different can of worms.

 

I have no issues when it comes to dealing with DDs, but I do like to push.  But hey, if you would like to ruin Bismarck's strengths so that your precious DDs won't have to think about just laughing in smoke dumping torps and HE fire without risk aside from other DDs or very good CVs you go  do that.  Few people are willing to push in BBs due to their lack of maneuverability as is and frankly, the main reason why people cry about Bismarck over the T9 and 10 equivalents is simply because mobility for T9-10 for battleships in general is horrid so kurfurst and friedrich can't reliably push without suffering heavy damage for it, and as a Bismarck player i'll do it anyway sometimes to give the team morale in order to be aggressive. 

 

What is the end result?  Well, hydro and the secondaries are clearly meant for brawling and dealing with DDs.  The hydro is so powerful to protect the bad mobility of BBs.  Why do BBs have bad mobility?  Well buddy, check back at CBT changes.  

 

Its due to CV and DD player whining.  Sirus_Patton made a thread about this a bit back.  So you don't like how Bismarck is able to shred things like this?  Well guess what, these are all bandaid balancing measures because BBs in the first place have issues pushing.  Why does nobody whine about Yamato's secondaries?  Because simply, everyone quietly is happy with the fact that at that range, the Yamato is in alot of trouble anyway and doesn't have the mobility.  

 

Face it.  You aren't happy you can't charge this battleship without heavy risk and it flips the easy give-me kills on running up on it.  And aside from people wanting secondaries to not suck, this all stems back from the whining of DD players crying incessantly that they couldn't hit BBs well with torpedoes.  Its a vicious cycle that was ironically started by no less, DD players.  

 

Welcome to the effects of selfish crying and what kind of tone it sets for all the subsequent balancing.  This forum's sad, pathetic sensational "blame it on the baBBies!" is funny really.  Its painfully ironic.  

 

 

 

meh...

 

I could care less if you push, good BB players can play from range.

 

The tone set for balancing is and always has been based on Battleships, not the whines of the forums and reddit. Its been that way since CBT and hasnt changed.

 

Meanwhile every other ship class not a BB has to adjust to new rules and mechanics that are set in place. CV play, Destroyer and Cruiser play are completley different now in comparison to beta Battleship play is the same. Why is that?

 

You dont need to get all defensive and start trashing the forums, not needed. BB players whine about crapjust as much as anyone on here...

 

Im not a DD main, i play everything. What i am concerned about is the over all perfornance of the game and imo Biz is stupidly OP with T10 secondaries on a T8 boat. Hell... i have said on here many times that i think USN Battleship secondaries need a buff because... they seem out of balance with every other sBB counter part.

[CaliburxZero]

 

meh...

 

I could care less if you push, good BB players can play from range.

 

The tone set for balancing is and always has been based on Battleships, not the whines of the forums and reddit. Its been that way since CBT and hasnt changed.

 

Meanwhile every other ship class not a BB has to adjust to new rules and mechanics that are set in place. CV play, Destroyer and Cruiser play are completley different now in comparison to beta Battleship play is the same. Why is that?

 

You dont need to get all defensive and start trashing the forums, not needed. BB players whine about crapjust as much as anyone on here...

 

Im not a DD main, i play everything. What i am concerned about is the over all perfornance of the game and imo Biz is stupidly OP with T10 secondaries on a T8 boat. Hell... i have said on here many times that i think USN Battleship secondaries need a buff because... they seem out of balance with every other sBB counter part.

 

Play from range?  Gunnery is a small, small part.  If a BB isn't pushing guess what?  That means the DDs are out there up front, alone.  And CAs of course hang back due to fragility.  

 

The fact that you try to cite CBT changes and ignore what the CVs were like back then... shows me you're either ignorant or on an agenda.  CVs had to be nerfed.  HOWEVER... the CV nerfs were too extreme.  I was originally one of the largest CV nerfing advocates.  Now?  I want to see them buffed and/or changed.

 

With WG overnerfing CVs, that meant DDs were then able to stay stealthed easily and their mechanics bared fruit:  The invis-fire and torp setups.  That started to really ruin gameplay and once again, with mobility nerfed it only drove BBs to hang back even more.  Of course because DDs suddenly had little risk they had to be adjusted.

 

As for cruisers, don't look at me for this one.  I'm pro-cruiser for buffs.  A large recent thread about "bringing CAs back to usefulness" or something like that I had stated I feel cruisers should get a repair like atago got from Tier 5 and higher, with an additional charge for the T9-10 cruisers.  And don't get me started about penetration mechanics.  That's such a mess I don't even know what to say.

 

In any case, I have no qualms about calling out people always using the BB derogatory names.  Its so rampant on these forums its a practical cesspool of salt and childish trash talking.  You don't have to be a DD main for me to say this to you.  Its very, very obvious who exactly would get salty about Bismarck's strengths. 

[Infeedel]

How to beat a bismarck: Stay further than 10.7km

 

How to beat a Bismark #2: Shoot it with the Amagi mains