Tier VIII+ Cruisers and SGM3

[HazeGrayUnderway]

So, I haven't really played with my Tier VIII+ Cruisers since the update hit with Steering Gears Mod 3 came out.  For those not familiar it goes in the same Tier VIII+ upgrade slot as Target Acquisition System Mod 1 and Concealment System Mod 1.  Tier VIII+ Cruisers can access this.  Tier VIII+ BBs do not access this.  What does SGM3 do?

 

-80% steering gears repair time (meh)

-40% rudder shift time (hmm)

 

FYI, Steering Gears Mod 2 (-20% rudder shift time) goes into a different upgrade slot so you can have both SGM2 and SGM3 slotted.  Just to list some Rudder Shift times with both SGM2 & 3 slotted for upgrades:

 

Tier V Konigsberg which can't slot any rudder mods is 6.9s.

Tier VIII Prinz Eugen 5.2s

Tier VIII Mogami 3.4s (you forsake CSM1 though...)

Tier IX Roon 5.5s

Tier X Hindenberg 5.8s. (With SGM2 only it's 9.7s)

Tier VIII Mikhail Kutuzov 3.1s (I s--t you not)

Tier X Moskva 5.2s (HUGE deal considering with SGM2 and no SGM3, her time is 10.6s, which traditionally has been a weakness for her)

 

It seems like an interesting route for High Tier Cruisers but I'm not going to say a "Full Rudder Upgrade" build is the End-All-Be-All route for high tier cruisers.  You may be hard pressed to pry a Full Concealment Build away from Zao, for example.  Then again, a full Concealment Build doesn't really shine unless you have the Tier 5 CE Trait.  There's also some Cruisers inherently have sh-t Concealment ranges to begin with, and some have their detection ranges bloom so wide when they fire their main battery.

 

Of interest is that this applies to Tier VIII Cruisers.  Which can end up seal clubbing Tier VI ships.  In contrast are some Tier VI & VII Cruisers with SGM2 upgrade.

Tier VI Budyonny 6.9s

Tier VI Cleveland 5.8s

Tier VII Indianapolis 7.3s

Tier VII Myoko 5.7s

Tier VIII Schors 7.1s

 

Edit again:  It seems high tier DDs can access this also.  Tier VIII Benson has the option but I haven't tried it.

[4bRbyHSSzZ6pk]

Using it on the Roon, I noticed a massive difference in how fast I can respond to threat and how easily I dodge shots since. I was honestly skeptical about how effective it would be, but am pleased to see at least on the german ships the improvement was very significant. Those are ships that would typically not run concealment anyway since they're detected by anything anywhere anytime.

[HazeGrayUnderway]

Using it on the Roon, I noticed a massive difference in how fast I can respond to threat and how easily I dodge shots since. I was honestly skeptical about how effective it would be, but am pleased to see at least on the german ships the improvement was very significant. Those are ships that would typically not run concealment anyway since they're detected by anything anywhere anytime.

 

My first high tier cruiser match today was with PE.  I had SGM2 and CSM1 slotted so the rudder shift was more standard fare.  Tried it with SGM2 & 3 on Roon, it was a big difference.  As you said, it was fast to respond to threats and cover your a--.  Want to see how this goes with different Cruisers.  IJN Cruisers I think will be a harder sell for it.  They inherently have pretty good concealment ranges.

 

Edit:  Mogami with SGM2 & 3 goes down to 3.4s, but you forsake the CSM1 upgrade.

[4bRbyHSSzZ6pk]

 

My first high tier cruiser match today was with PE.  I had SGM2 and CSM1 slotted so the rudder shift was more standard fare.  Tried it with SGM2 & 3 on Roon, it was a big difference.  As you said, it was fast to respond to threats and cover your a--.  Want to see how this goes with different Cruisers.  IJN Cruisers I think will be a harder sell for it.  They inherently have pretty good concealment ranges.

 

The biggest issue of all in my opinion for IJN CA is that their turrets traverse too slowly so if you maneuver better, it'll be even harder to keep guns on target. I don't think this rudder upgrade was made with them in mind to begin with.

[MrDeaf]

Using it on the Roon, I noticed a massive difference in how fast I can respond to threat and how easily I dodge shots since. I was honestly skeptical about how effective it would be, but am pleased to see at least on the german ships the improvement was very significant. Those are ships that would typically not run concealment anyway since they're detected by anything anywhere anytime.

 

Roon and Hindenburg go down to 11.1km concealment.

That's not too terrible.

 

Atago at 9.3km

Mogami, Ibuki, Baltimore and Zao at 9.8km

DM, chappy at 10.7km

[HazeGrayUnderway]

 

The biggest issue of all in my opinion for IJN CA is that their turrets traverse too slowly so if you maneuver better, it'll be even harder to keep guns on target. I don't think this rudder upgrade was made with them in mind to begin with.

 

Quite right.  Mogami can go down to "Dance Master" levels of rudder shift but 155mm build, well, the guns can't keep up.

[4bRbyHSSzZ6pk]

 

Roon and Hindenburg go down to 11.1km concealment.

That's not too terrible.

 

Atago at 9.3km

Mogami, Ibuki, Baltimore and Zao at 9.8km

DM, chappy at 10.7km

 

Yeah, it can have 0,4km invisifire range even I think, but since that would require you to sit at max range all the time to actually notice and with such a good RoF you're very likely to be spotted all the time as you shoot constantly, I just fail to see the point of going with concealment for them. My captain has Concealment Expert for lack of a better 5-cost skill on a Cruiser still though...

[kerensky914]

Just keep in mind that making a cruiser dance needs two things - rudder shift and turning circle.  The mods can reduce rudder shift tremendously, and yes it makes a difference.  But if your turn circle is 980m, even a rudder shift of 0 isn't going to make you unhittable.

[HazeGrayUnderway]

Just keep in mind that making a cruiser dance needs two things - rudder shift and turning circle.  The mods can reduce rudder shift tremendously, and yes it makes a difference.  But if your turn circle is 980m, even a rudder shift of 0 isn't going to make you unhittable.

 

It makes a difference in the world to be able to turn quickly enough to avoid that torpedo or battleship salvo, or to better shift to unforeseen circumstances.

[GhostSwordsman]

Just keep in mind that making a cruiser dance needs two things - rudder shift and turning circle.  The mods can reduce rudder shift tremendously, and yes it makes a difference.  But if your turn circle is 980m, even a rudder shift of 0 isn't going to make you unhittable.

 

This is exactly why I'm skeptical that the new mods will actually help anything. A lot of the high tier cruisers are long so they can achieve high speeds(a lot being able to run down DDs), and as you said, it doesn't make any difference if you can start your turn faster, you still have the same turning radii to deal with. IJN CA mains will probably realize this first if they were expecting to be able to turn out faster or something like that.

 

The new mod may help when bobbing and weaving back and fourth, but it still doesn't really seem help the fact that cruisers can't break off to retreat or re-position unless they're undetected because of their large turning circles at high tiers.

[HazeGrayUnderway]

 

This is exactly why I'm skeptical that the new mods will actually help anything. A lot of the high tier cruisers are long so they can achieve high speeds(a lot being able to run down DDs), and as you said, it doesn't make any difference if you can start your turn faster, you still have the same turning radii to deal with. IJN CA mains will probably realize this first if they were expecting to be able to turn out faster or something like that.

 

The new mod may help when bobbing and weaving back and fourth, but it still doesn't really seem help the fact that cruisers can't break off to retreat or re-position unless they're undetected because of their large turning circles at high tiers.

 

I already said earlier, this isn't going to be of use for some Cruisers.  Ask a Zao player to give up his CSM1 upgrade in favor of SGM3, he'll tell you to go pack sand.  There's also the fact that some high tier Cruisers have worthless Concealment ranges no matter what you do, but do have mediocre Rudder Shift times.

 

You're not being asked to run circles.  You're being asked if your ship can react to changes faster:  To deal with that incoming torpedo salvo, to change your Cruiser's profile faster, especially against a new threat.

[MrDeaf]

On Atago, SGM3 works better than I thought it would.

 

I haven't bothered to use it on other cruisers yet.

[Ivlerlin]

Does anyone know how SGM3 stacks with SGM1? 

Is the "-Rudder Repair Time" an additive effect or multiplicative or highest of. 

 

Depending how they stack makes the 'Last Stand' skill less required if you choose SGM3. -80% RRT on it's own is a high value, how the -20% RRT from SGM1 fits in is gravy. SGM1 still decreases incapacitation by 20% considering how invested your ship's rudder is. 

[saagri]

Gota love it when the Mikhail Kutuzov has better rudder shift than some DD's.

 

Does anyone know how SGM3 stacks with SGM1? 

Is the "-Rudder Repair Time" an additive effect or multiplicative or highest of. 

 

Depending how they stack makes the 'Last Stand' skill less required if you choose SGM3. -80% RRT on it's own is a high value, how the -20% RRT from SGM1 fits in is gravy. SGM1 still decreases incapacitation by 20% considering how invested your ship's rudder is. 

Most skills/upgrades stack multiplicatively in this game. So both upgrades is basically half off the rudder shift.

[centarina]

they do stack, and  my hipper basically has 5 sec rudder shift.  just wow.     it has decent turning circle, so it is very quick to turn.   totally feels like different ship.  and with its ap being so good, 5k per volley against BB is very easy.  and wrecks cruisers.

[inktomi19d]

The irony is that most ships which can afford to give up the concealment mod are already performing well, while some of the worst tier VIII+ cruisers have concealment as basically the only thing going for them.

 

 

[Ivlerlin]

Gota love it when the Mikhail Kutuzov has better rudder shift than some DD's.

 

Most skills/upgrades stack multiplicatively in this game. So both upgrades is basically half off the rudder shift.

 

So I had my Rudder taken out today while running SGM1 + SGM3 and with both it drops the RRT down to about 5s.

Around -83% RRT from 30s, which from what I remember is the normal time for repair, stacking both saves you about 1s RRT. But it also gives you -20% chance of incapacitation quite useful provided your captain is not running Last Stand.

 

And if you are running Last Stand, you're probably better off taking PropMod1 to spread out the Repair Time reductions to mitigate the penalties from LS.

 

 

 

[Aduial]

Has anybody tried it on the Mogami? Is it worth getting over the concealment modules, and does it put the turrets out of position too often when using the 155 mm guns? 

[HazeGrayUnderway]

Has anybody tried it on the Mogami? Is it worth getting over the concealment modules, and does it put the turrets out of position too often when using the 155 mm guns? 

 

That's the thing with Mogami, which we specifically mentioned earlier in the thread.  She's an IJN CA which tend to have great concealment ranges.  But her turret traverse is awful.  You CAN use the faster turning with SGM3, the same way Warspite users use turns to more quickly shift the aim of their slow turrets.  But using SGM3, you're not slotting CSM1 to improve concealment.

 

It's a matter of tradeoffs.  What are you willing to give up to improve your rudder shift?  For some it's a no brainer.  RU & German Cruisers have a number of ships with abysmal concealment, so the choice may be easier.  Moskva?  PE/Hipper?  Hindenberg?  Roon?  Why not?  But Zao, Des Moines, IJN Cruisers, that gets more complicated.  For these, they have a style that they may be ideal for, Concealment Builds.  You can give up a bit of that for faster turning and generalize the ship more.

 

Just realize, as some others have pointed out, while it does improve your rudder shift time, your turning circle radius doesn't change.

[InclinedToRun]

So, I haven't really played with my Tier VIII+ Cruisers since the update hit with Steering Gears Mod 3 came out.  For those not familiar it goes in the same Tier VIII+ upgrade slot as Target Acquisition System Mod 1 and Concealment System Mod 1.  Tier VIII+ Cruisers can access this.  Tier VIII+ BBs do not access this.  What does SGM3 do?

 

-80% steering gears repair time (meh)

-40% rudder shift time (hmm)

 

FYI, Steering Gears Mod 2 (-20% rudder shift time) goes into a different upgrade slot so you can have both SGM2 and SGM3 slotted.  Just to list some Rudder Shift times with both SGM2 & 3 slotted for upgrades:

 

Tier V Konigsberg which can't slot any rudder mods is 6.9s.

Tier VIII Prinz Eugen 5.2s

Tier VIII Mogami 3.4s (you forsake CSM1 though...)

Tier IX Roon 5.5s

Tier X Hindenberg 5.8s. (With SGM2 only it's 9.7s)

Tier VIII Mikhail Kutuzov 3.1s (I s--t you not)

Tier X Moskva 5.2s (HUGE deal considering with SGM2 and no SGM3, her time is 10.6s, which traditionally has been a weakness for her)

 

It seems like an interesting route for High Tier Cruisers but I'm not going to say a "Full Rudder Upgrade" build is the End-All-Be-All route for high tier cruisers.  You may be hard pressed to pry a Full Concealment Build away from Zao, for example.  Then again, a full Concealment Build doesn't really shine unless you have the Tier 5 CE Trait.  There's also some Cruisers inherently have sh-t Concealment ranges to begin with, and some have their detection ranges bloom so wide when they fire their main battery.

 

Of interest is that this applies to Tier VIII Cruisers.  Which can end up seal clubbing Tier VI ships.  In contrast are some Tier VI & VII Cruisers with SGM2 upgrade.

Tier VI Budyonny 6.9s

Tier VI Cleveland 5.8s

Tier VII Indianapolis 7.3s

Tier VII Myoko 5.7s

Tier VIII Schors 7.1s

 

Edit again:  It seems high tier DDs can access this also.  Tier VIII Benson has the option but I haven't tried it.

 

the schors is t7

[HazeGrayUnderway]

 

the schors is t7

 

I know that since I actually said, "Tier VII Schors 7.1s," but the point was contrasting the SGM2+SGM3 rudder shift of Tier VIII+ Cruisers compared to previous tiered ones.  It is pretty decent difference.