DD's seem out of control.

[Rommel_41]

I recently played two rounds (one in my Prinz and one in Scharn) of which I was faced of against a fair number of DD's.

 

  

 

After the first match, I started the second by announcing how I felt a hard-cap on DD's and BB's would be somewhat reasonable. I said that my reasons were both to prevent all the team's BB's from sniping out of fear from torpedo annihilation and to give cruisers a bit more flexibility to actively hunt DD's since they won't have to be dodging all the extra DD's and 5-6 BB's looking to cit any cruiser foolish enough to get close to the DD's.

 

I was promptly told "no", "what does it even matter?" and "DD's and BB's would get overwhelmed by the HE/fire-meta".

 

Well. We won this time. But as if to (generally) vindicate my argument, these were the results.

 

 

Baffling. I'm not afraid of DD's, but there seems to be something off when they can so easily crush whole teams, mostly by themselves.

 

I'm far from an expert or experienced to the degree that I consider my opinion the foundation of fact. Maybe someone with that from the DD and BB camp will chime in and help me understand what the best way to even-out battles, so that each vessel, and to a greater extent each class, will feel quite capable of impacting the battle without outright-overwhelming any other class?

[BossmanSlim]

Every match I have had recently is 5 BBs and 5 DDs with the remaining 2 slots being 1-2 cruisers 0-1 CVs.

[DokturProfesur]

If this was low tier I would agree, but at these tiers you'll find player skill is more a deciding factor. It seems to me that you just got blessed with a good team.

[RipNuN2]

More class caps will only cause more problems with the MM going all screwy and taking longer.

[MnemonScarlet]

Baffling. I'm not afraid of DD's, but there seems to be something off when they can so easily crush whole teams, mostly by themselves.

 

A common thing I see in games where some DDs are completely dominant is that my DDs were trash. They fed hard and then the other DDs had nothing to oppose them. The cruisers then mostly rely on the red DDs making mistakes that get them killed.

[Rommel_41]

If this was low tier I would agree, but at these tiers you'll find player skill is more a deciding factor. It seems to me that you just got blessed with a good team.

 

But in the first game it was basically reversed. However, in both matches, both team's DD's are well-represented near the top of the list! It may be skill, but that kinda (combined with these and other results) implies only amazing people are DD drivers. I don't touch them because I can't seem to make them last. It's not something I'm wanting to really improve right now either. But it's clear that you can (with the right skill-level) make a DD the most terrifying vessel on-map!

[DokturProfesur]

 

But in the first game it was basically reversed. However, in both matches, both team's DD's are well-represented near the top of the list! It may be skill, but that kinda (combined with these and other results) implies only amazing people are DD drivers. I don't touch them because I can't seem to make them last. It's not something I'm wanting to really improve right now either. But it's clear that you can (with the right skill-level) make a DD the most terrifying vessel on-map!

 

You should see the Khab right now.

 

That damn thing can kill any battleship it wants with main batteries alone and come out unscathed.

[GUNSTAR_THE_LEGEND]

Here is what I have learned.  Its not about the number of DD's its whos playing them.  You will find out in the first 5 minutes if you should be worried or not.  i used to get that feeling of oh lord while playing my BB's now I see it more as an opportunity to rack up close quarters flags.  Dont let them beat you before the match is played and think you must play defensive. 

[Grizley]

 

You should see the Khab right now.

 

That damn thing can kill any battleship it wants with main batteries alone and come out unscathed.

 

My name is rock, scissors is fine, nerf paper.

 

Yes, a Kebab or for that matter a Gearing will be able to do very well against a BB even just using guns.  On the other hand, a T10 BB can delete a CA relatively reliably at 20km.

 

Of the two I find the DD situation far less broken.

[DokturProfesur]

 

My name is rock, scissors is fine, nerf paper.

 

Yes, a Kebab or for that matter a Gearing will be able to do very well against a BB even just using guns.  On the other hand, a T10 BB can delete a CA relatively reliably at 20km.

 

Of the two I find the DD situation far less broken.

 

Oh please, everyone knows the Rock Paper Scissors is hardly working as WG intended. The problem with the Khab is the range of that thing. Even in my Moskva I cannot hit that thing for the life of me. It's too good.

[Morpheous]

I recently have been implimenting a new strategy for me when I am in a BB, specially a faster one.  I get sniped by DD, I hate it, you hate it.  What to do?  CHARGE!  Yep it seems to be working too.  I have killed the offending DD every time, and yes I have ate a torp or two, sometimes none, but the DD is DEAD.  If you think about it, they are about 11km or less when smoked up and firing, they are motionless for the most part or better yet, moving backwards.  They usually don't realize your on them till you've dropped a 3-4 Kms off the distance...then they run, but they run out of the smoke and then the die.  Problem with the strat is if there are a lot of other enemy ships around then your going to get pounded, my damage has increased, by kills increased.  I have killed TWO dds almost at the same time, one with main guns and the other almost with secondaries.  I have done this with CAs, but you gotta be more choosy as you can die to enemy BBs pretty quick.  I have found Sharny and Dunk to be very good DD killers for their tiers.  Charged into a DD with Warspite, had to eat an extra torp as its slower, but I got the DD.

[Dunk_Master_Flex]

It's the out of control BB spam that is the main problem here.

 

Usually five or six battleships per match, not fun as a cruiser.

[10T0nHammer]

 

Oh please, everyone knows the Rock Paper Scissors is hardly working as WG intended. The problem with the Khab is the range of that thing. Even in my Moskva I cannot hit that thing for the life of me. It's too good.

 

Range, speed and armor. It only has 1 downside, AA. And if the Khab player is good enough, he will simply outrun the CVs torps.

[capt_boradside]

I recently played two rounds (one in my Prinz and one in Scharn) of which I was faced of against a fair number of DD's.

 

  

 

After the first match, I started the second by announcing how I felt a hard-cap on DD's and BB's would be somewhat reasonable. I said that my reasons were both to prevent all the team's BB's from sniping out of fear from torpedo annihilation and to give cruisers a bit more flexibility to actively hunt DD's since they won't have to be dodging all the extra DD's and 5-6 BB's looking to cit any cruiser foolish enough to get close to the DD's.

 

I was promptly told "no", "what does it even matter?" and "DD's and BB's would get overwhelmed by the HE/fire-meta".

 

Well. We won this time. But as if to (generally) vindicate my argument, these were the results.

 

 

Baffling. I'm not afraid of DD's, but there seems to be something off when they can so easily crush whole teams, mostly by themselves.

 

I'm far from an expert or experienced to the degree that I consider my opinion the foundation of fact. Maybe someone with that from the DD and BB camp will chime in and help me understand what the best way to even-out battles, so that each vessel, and to a greater extent each class, will feel quite capable of impacting the battle without outright-overwhelming any other class?

 

that dpends on how good the player in that dd is,,, the bb has bigger guns, i play a dd and most of the time i last 8 minsor so.....i get killed by a bbmost of the time

[poeticmotion]

I have no problems with DDs when I am in a battleship. Why? Because I also play DDs, so I know how to fight against DDs. DD near me? I chase it down and kill it. A lot of DD drivers have no idea how to handle it when a BB turns bow-on to the DD and charges it. 

 

Also, religious use of WASD and minimap awareness means I very rarely eat torps from a DD I don't see.

 

Stop whining about DDs and learn how to handle them. 

[Naughtius_Maximus]

The problem here you are looking at is the vision. DDs control vision, and vision is incredibly important at high tiers.

 

But vision itself is not the problem, since ships retain the same general camo they have been getting throughout all tiers (~6km DD, ~11km CA.) The problem is that vision enables the guns. The guns get unwarranted buffs per tier until they are practically laser beams, from how you ship cannot maneuver in time to react to it, to the accuracy, to the fires, and finally to how it slices right through armor.

 

It's the 3 BBs and two CAs at 16km that get enabled, then forcing you to abandon any form of DD chase on pain of death. If you were to nerf to root cause of this problem, guns, you might be able to return to the mid tiers where you can very much chase say 13km or so into enemy gun ranges and still end up okay, since ships mid tier do not have great effective range past that.

 

Everyone engaging closer causes more encounters with DDs and less space to move in, as they often work in between fleets.

 

Also torpedoes are a huge boogeyman people keep throwing around when they are the best ship based anti-camping tool available. People who blame torpedoes for camping clearly have not realized that with the nerf to torpedoes people have started to camp more. From bow on reverse to camping islands, the former domain of torpedo equipped ships.

[Furysghost]

Is this a repeat of WOT?

In tanks they turned it into a heavy tank brawling meta with corridor maps. If your heavys camped your team most likely lost.

Heavy tanks, battle ships...camping, sniping BB's.

Seems like they are not learning the lesson here and repeating a big mistake!

[RedSeaBear]

Destroyers Master race, come to the dark side, embrace the stealth attack and let the torpedoes flow from you. 

Food is a lot better when seasoned with the salt from your victims. 

[4bRbyHSSzZ6pk]

DDs are fine, but they kinda aren't. DDs are fine when both teams have equally capable Destroyers which leads to balanced games. DDs are not really fine when your team has bad DD players who die early or fail miserably when facing the enemy team DDs, but that's not a problem with the game. That's a L2P issue with the DD players who are unable to handle other DDs properly. DDs keep running into each other every game out there, the team with the best DD captains will get an early ship advantage as well as spotting advantage and more often than not that's GG for them.

 

Having a capable carrier player often helps to reduce the impact of losing all the team's DDs can have in the game, since carriers can open up eyes anywhere on the map while they do their own thing... but those are rare and too difficult to play nowadays so no one counts on them showing up in the queue when lots of DDs are around. Hopefully future adjustments to CVs will fix this problem which we never had back when it was certain there'd be at least one every battle.

 

DDs are balanced by Carriers, they're the ones who do the torpedo spotting (which remain spotted for the rest of the trajectory when seen by an airplane), who keep the DD on the defensive through spotting (sometimes constantly), who sometimes bomb a DD into oblivion (depending on the number of offerings to RNG gods or absolute prowess with Torpedo Bombers). Until we have more carriers around, DDs are in a very comfortable zone and I don't expect their numbers to thin.

 

Also torpedoes are a huge boogeyman people keep throwing around when they are the best ship based anti-camping tool available. People who blame torpedoes for camping clearly have not realized that with the nerf to torpedoes people have started to camp more. From bow on reverse to camping islands, the former domain of torpedo equipped ships.

 

On this... First people said they camped because of torpedoes... once IJN torpedoes got weakened, the excuse became economy... now economy is tweaked and avoiding damage doesn't save credits... maybe we'll finally put an end to the myth that game mechanics are to blame for camping meta and realize no matter what happens the camping player will continue camping no matter what changes are made? This is the mindset a large number of players in NA have, scary numbers of players won't give up camping even if they go back to being punished for it.

 

[Naughtius_Maximus]

We should honestly be buffing torpedoes past Shima pre-nerf. Moot point considering they plan on castrating long range torpedoes with new IJN DD line.

 

They at least kept bow camping in check a tad. Whiners got it nerfed because it was a superb punishment tool vs bow on reverse (ie they were salty for being punished for camping.)

 

Nowadays people use islands as cover, no wait, bow on into islands. The kind of stuff we used to ridicule obvious WoT and FPS migrants for.

[DokturProfesur]

On this... First people said they camped because of torpedoes... once IJN torpedoes got weakened, the excuse became economy... now economy is tweaked and avoiding damage doesn't save credits... maybe we'll finally put an end to the myth that game mechanics are to blame for camping meta and realize no matter what happens the camping player will continue camping no matter what changes are made? This is the mindset a large number of players in NA have, scary numbers of players won't give up camping even if they go back to being punished for it.

 

It's always been ships like Yamato that caused camping, that and the likes of the Zao.

[Rommel_41]

I have no problems with DDs when I am in a battleship. Why? Because I also play DDs, so I know how to fight against DDs. DD near me? I chase it down and kill it. A lot of DD drivers have no idea how to handle it when a BB turns bow-on to the DD and charges it. 

 

Also, religious use of WASD and minimap awareness means I very rarely eat torps from a DD I don't see.

 

Stop whining about DDs and learn how to handle them. 

 

I'm glad that you are so perfect at the game. It's good that there are people who never fail what they want to accomplish in a match. 

 

I love to sink BB's that charge me bow-on with a wall of overlapping, narrow torpedo-spreads. And that's just what I do to them in a cruiser.

 

Clearly you didn't look at either screen-shot or you would see that I survived both matches while remaining in the top-5. I can handle myself, thank you.

 

If you would like to add something informative, other than a rehash of "WASD hack", I would most-welcome your insight to how you flawlessly defeat 4-5 DD's...attacking you at the same time. 'Cause that's what happened to the dead guys in these matches. I watched half our team in the first match melt away as the cruisers, destroyers and battleships failed to deliver the killing blow to the enemy destroyers before they swamped their attackers with dozens of waves of overlapping torpedo-walls. Straight-on, angled or running broadside to escape the range. Didn't matter. The torps eventually got all of them...except me.

 

I'm not really concerned, as I make do with whichever craft I man. The masses of threads devoted to cursing the sniping BB , the invisa-fire-makers and the fact that every island might as well just shoot torpedoes on their own, has me thinking that there is some source to these issues. My guess is balance. I consistently see DD's dominate matches. I thought to start there. That's it. Otherwise, I'll keep having fun.

[4bRbyHSSzZ6pk]

 

It's always been ships like Yamato that caused camping, that and the likes of the Zao.

 

It's hard to deny a firespewing Zao that can punish everyone so heavily from its very max range causes any push to be disheartening, but it remains a fact that sitting still or backing up only helps the Zao to fill your superstructure with massive HE alpha damage. Might as well remain moving in that case because Zao damage can hardly be mitigated no matter what you do... but that's another story, this thread is about DDs.

[Herr_Reitz]

Well the Khab (as in corn cob?) gets her nerf tomorrow.... range and reload. She''ll still be a terror I'm sure... but will it be the same amount of terror generated? 

[MnemonScarlet]

On this... First people said they camped because of torpedoes... once IJN torpedoes got weakened, the excuse became economy... now economy is tweaked and avoiding damage doesn't save credits... maybe we'll finally put an end to the myth that game mechanics are to blame for camping meta and realize no matter what happens the camping player will continue camping no matter what changes are made? This is the mindset a large number of players in NA have, scary numbers of players won't give up camping even if they go back to being punished for it.

 

Most of the bad campers will probably camp no matter what you do to them. Look at all the longtime tomatoes in WoT who just keep doing the same thing over and over again and complaining about it not working and how reds are cheating, etc. Some people have a tremendous ability to shift blame off of themselves no matter how at fault they actually are. The only counter to them in the WG random team format would be to have climbing up the tiers have requisite improvements in performance, but WG won't scare off that much potential money.