TheHunter2_EAD

Frist Italian Premium: BB Roma idea

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Actually, the high-velocity guns of the Littorio-class' 15 inch guns would have relatively poor dispersion.

At least, that's what I heard.

 

They did historically, but if the precedent of the Kirov and Molotov are anything to go off of, Littorio will be in a good place. 

 

Well, as I mentioned in that post, most of the dispersion issues related to the guns came from quality of ammunition. When the ammo was good, this gun was quite accurate. Was that the case all the time? Not at all, so the dispersion, especially coming from such a high velocity gun, tended to get quite wacky.

 

This quote that explains it be found on the navweaps page for the gun;

 The Model 1934 was extremely accurate and was able to deliver very consistent and predictable patterns with devastating hitting power - with the ammunition used for trials.  Unfortunately, the materials and supply process in Italy works differently than it does in most other countries.  In the U.S., for example, if one wished to test a sample of 16" shells, they might pull an example from stock, and inspect it directly.  In Italy, the firm producing the equipment would have the advantage of providing the item for test, thereby possibly delivering an example which would be of atypically good quality with respect to serialized units.  This was the problem with the Model 1934 - the firms producing the ammunition did not all produce projectiles of proper quality.  [Admiral Angelo] Iachino complained about this in post-war books.  Some actions showed a run of good projectiles, where others were plagued by terribly bad examples.  Possibly the greatest contrast was seen between the shooting of Littorio in the first battle of Sirte Gulf and that of Vittorio Veneto in the 28 March Guado encounter.  Despite the fact that Littorio was shooting at targets 32,000 yards away while Veneto was attacking at first Orion and afterwards Gloucester at only 24,000 yards, the Littorio's shot groups were significantly more consistent, despite the greater range, doubtlessly owing to a batch of properly fabricated 381-mm projectiles.

 

The precedent set by numerous ships, such as Kirov, Molotov, Pensacola, Omaha, all suggests that the biggest issue to plague Italy's dispersion on their cruiser and destroyer caliber guns won't actually have any affect in game. This is the feature where the guns are almost right up against the others in the turret, so effect of one gun firing would effect the ballistics of the other. This plagued all of the Italian twin 120mm, 6in, and 8in mounts, excluding the twin mounts on the Abruzzi class.


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Just use a nonlinear cone to show the dispersion past a certain point is RNGesus time or keep a low max range with tight groupings. It was understood that the guns where accurate to a point. Anything over this range there was only the expectation of possible effectiveness. One of the articles Even the US used dye bags to make up for the variance in weight of shells.

 

  For example, the 16 inch (40.64 cm) Mark 8 AP had a nominal 1.5 lbs. (0.68 kg) dye bag, but this was allowed to be as large as 3.0 lbs. (1.36 kg) in order to bring underweight projectiles up to the standard weight of 2,700 lbs. (1,225 kg). 

 http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/Gun_Data_p2.php

 

To poke the bear a wee bit. :hiding:

 

 

Here are a few extracts from the Admiralty document Progress in Naval Gunnery, 1942) with relevant paragraph numbers

 

326. The most satisfactory and profitable gun actions in the Mediterranean whether fought by battleships, light forces or submarines, have been fought as nearly as practicable at point blank range. The only satisfactory day action commenced at long range and fought to a finish was H.M.A.S. Sydney v. Colleoni.

About the Bismarck action it noted: 


377. Although satisfactory at times, spreads in general appear to have been large and in consequence there must have been many false straddles and wasted rounds. The excessive spreads of the capital ships' main armament salvos at the close of the final action (range 3-4,000 yards) was possibly due to fatigue of layers as the flatness of the trajectory could not have been wholly responsible; the need for more stringent pointer-following drills is indicated. Although the sea was rough, the motion on the capital ships was not unduly heavy.

 

This data is from the 1943 Progress in Naval Gunnery for test firings giving mean spread of five gun salvoes corresponding to the observed 50 percent zone. 

 

King George V at 11,700 yards 326 yards. This was in September 1941
Duke of York 18,200 yards--407 yards (June 1942)
Anson 21,400 yards--413 yards (September 1942)


1937 tests from the Queen Elizabeth class reanged from 324 to 274 yards with the longest range being 16,000 yards. 

 

In contrast, test firing of the 381/50 OTO guns made in 1939 at 21,000 meters (nearly 23,000 yards indicated a dispersion of 290 meters and 185 meters at 17,000 meters. The Ansaldo guns didn’t do as well with a dispersion of 416 meters at 22,500 meters. 

 

The Italian data comes from Il tiro navale italiano by Giuliano Colliva published in Storia Militare 199 (April 2010). He also wrote a longer study published by Bollettino d’archivio of the USSMM in 2003 I referred to eariler.

 

The point is that test firings indicated that the dispersion of the Italian guns was less at equal ranges than test firings made of similarly sized British guns. I’m not sure what evidence exists, other than antidotal, that the Italian problem with dispersion at long ranges was greater than anyone else's.

 

http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12145&page=2


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I don't have to give them ideas, I'm sure its already on a whiteboard somewhere in marketing. :look:

^ I agree.


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Don't give WarGaming any ideas!

 

Also, the Litorrio-class of battleships would be rather slow in their rate of fire and have relatively poor accuracy (if WarGaming cares about historical accuracy anymore:hiding:).

^ Why not.

Germany, Poland, USSR, UK, & French ships appear before the lines came out (not French line). Mostly BB in tier VI thought VIII (but not USSR & Poland there DD came out). Why not let Roma be the Frist into the Italian ship line.

Or u one of those WG player who hate Italian war machine.  


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Well, as I mentioned in that post, most of the dispersion issues related to the guns came from quality of ammunition. When the ammo was good, this gun was quite accurate. Was that the case all the time? Not at all, so the dispersion, especially coming from such a high velocity gun, tended to get quite wacky.

 

This quote that explains it be found on the navweaps page for the gun;

 

 

The precedent set by numerous ships, such as Kirov, Molotov, Pensacola, Omaha, all suggests that the biggest issue to plague Italy's dispersion on their cruiser and destroyer caliber guns won't actually have any affect in game. This is the feature where the guns are almost right up against the others in the turret, so effect of one gun firing would effect the ballistics of the other. This plagued all of the Italian twin 120mm, 6in, and 8in mounts, excluding the twin mounts on the Abruzzi class.

So, you're saying the guns will have the range of Yamato and relatively low dispersion?

Damn, that's amazing.


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Realistically I would hope for a high sigma value to 19km with the value getting worse past this point. 


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So, you're saying the guns will have the range of Yamato and relatively low dispersion?

Damn, that's amazing.

 

Depends... I've heard two narratives on how dispersion and sigma work.

1. Dispersion number affects horizontal dispersion, while sigma is related to the vertical dispersion

2. Dispersion is just the max dispersion of the guns in general, horizontal or vertical, while sigma is related to how likely/often the rounds actually go where you aim, as oppose to dispersing out somewhere in the dispersions circle.

I am still not quite certain as to which is correct.

 

Gun range in this game is not dependent on the range of the guns themselves, but is supposedly related more to fire control systems. Otherwise, the Italian 381mm/50 gun would just outrange every other gun in the game with relative impunity. The gun's don't elevate over 35º to 36º, and yet can still hit targets out at 42.8 or 46.6km (APC or HE, respectively).

To compare with what are commonly referred to as the most powerful naval guns ever built, the Japanese 18.1in gun(Yamato), and the American 16in/50 Mk.7(Iowa)...

18.1in:

35º Elevation(same as the 381mm/50's max):

With APC: number not given, but at 30º it's 35.8km, and at 40º it's 40.7km 

45º Elevation(Actual max elevation):

APC: 42km

HE: 32.5km(I don't know why it's lower than the APC number, the HE was fired at a higher velocity but the shell was about a 100kg lighter

16in/50 Mk.7:

35º Elevation:

AP(SHS): 36.1km

HE: 35.3km

45º Elevation:

AP(SHS): 38.7km

HE: 38km

 

Now, seeing as no gun shoots out past 26.6km in this game(Yammie's), and the Littorio class very likely to be tier 8, I doubt we'll see her ability to outrange the tier 10s actually realized in game. However, if she didn't at least have the ability to outrange all the tier 8s, I'd be disappointed...

As to the accuracy of the guns, brand new, with good ammo, they were quite accurate. It was only after barrel wear, or bad ammo, that their accuracy dropped off. If you couple that with the fact that Italian shooting and fire control was quite good thought the war(they usually began to straddle their targets quite quickly, however the dispersion issues, either due to bad ammo(battleships), or the guns being to close together(Heavy cruisers, most light cruisers, most destroyers), they had a hard time actually hitting their targets), then these guns should be quite accurate. Their high velocity should make them quite easy to aim, too, at all ranges.

 

It being WG, I'm worried if they might feel obliged to give bad accuracy because that's the common (mis)conception about the individual guns, and WG likes to assign national flavors, even if it means bending the facts, aka, German Cruisers getting +1000 damage on their AP, in exchange for weaker HE. Really, the only 8in guns that should be doing 5k damage or more with AP are the guns on the Zao, and I forget if it was ever built or fired, and the 8in guns on the Zara and Bolzano classes, if you use the original 950-960mps velocity. Any other 8in gun currently in game doing more AP damage than 5,000 has been given some help by WG...

 

All in all, unless WG says otherwise, they should be high-damage(compared to 15in guns), high-velocity, long-ranged, accurate guns...

 


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Italy can manage its own tree, thank you very much. 

 

What differences does Roma have to make it worth being a premium?

 

Eugen has proven that sadly, anything can be a premium.

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Eugen has proven that sadly, anything can be a premium.

Eugen did get to accompany Bismarck at Denmark Strait and survived the war operational which is a feat in itself.

 

Littorio as the nameship. Vittorio Veneto as the premium with her more distinguished combat career (like Eugen). Roma misses out on a premium slot like the 3rd Adm. Hipper, Blucher which had a similarly short active career and tragic end.


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Eugen has proven that sadly, anything can be a premium.

So Roma has a chance then?


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Eugen did get to accompany Bismarck at Denmark Strait and survived the war operational which is a feat in itself.

 

Littorio as the nameship. Vittorio Veneto as the premium with her more distinguished combat career (like Eugen). Roma misses out on a premium slot like the 3rd Adm. Hipper, Blucher which had a similarly short active career and tragic end.

 

​So ur saying 1 of Roma sister ships has a chance then?  In my option If Roma is going miss out being a premium at least a normal ship on tech tree would be nice. in the mean time I got this project:  https://plus.google.com/photos/photo/111617472013066569222/6338804652660618210?icm=false&sqid=102333463401067281147&ssid=53968c30-cbca-4e9e-9a67-0414e365c972

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​So ur saying 1 of Roma sister ships has a chance then?  In my option If Roma is going miss out being a premium at least a normal ship on tech tree would be nice. in the mean time I got this project:  https://plus.google.com/photos/photo/111617472013066569222/6338804652660618210?icm=false&sqid=102333463401067281147&ssid=53968c30-cbca-4e9e-9a67-0414e365c972

Yep, that's what I'm saying. Litorrio as the tech tree free one. Vittorio Veneto for the more colorful career. No Roma.


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Roma was taken out by a Fritx X smart bomb dropped from outside of AA range by a Heinkel bomber. A lovely ship that had a tragic ending. I vote for Vittorio Veneto as a Premium. Tier 8 would be a good fit. They are really sharp BBs. I have Ermingo Bagnasco's book The Littorio Class: Italy's Last and Largest Battleships as a Kindle ebook. Worth the read. Love these ships. Italians alway build good-looking ships, in style, like the Ferrari racing cars that I have loved all my life! Could never afford one, but I can dream...


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Roma was taken out by a Fritx X smart bomb dropped from outside of AA range by a Heinkel bomber. A lovely ship that had a tragic ending. I vote for Vittorio Veneto as a Premium. Tier 8 would be a good fit. They are really sharp BBs. I have Ermingo Bagnasco's book The Littorio Class: Italy's Last and Largest Battleships as a Kindle ebook. Worth the read. Love these ships. Italians alway build good-looking ships, in style, like the Ferrari racing cars that I have loved all my life! Could never afford one, but I can dream...

 

​Well I agree on Vittorio Veneto being a Tier 8 Premium ship being the First Italian for WG.   

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Roma would be lovely...

But personally, I third the vote for Vittorio Veneto.

 

She had quite the operational history... And the class will be glorious fun.

Good armor, good speed, beautiful lines, decent AA, and the most powerful 15in battery ever mounted, 3x3 15in guns in turrets that turn fast enough to make some cruisers jealous... And incredible range on this guns. They'll be quite accurate too, since WG doesn't take into account shell qualtiy.

 

Something has to be balanced against those guns being great in every other respect, so it seems like wider dispersion would be the obvious choice.

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Well, I think raw damage output would be the balance.

Both Amagi and North Carolina are lobbing 10 or 9 16in shells, which do 12600 or 13100 more damage than Littorio's 15in guns, respectively.

That's anything from 500 to 1000 damage over the 15in guns, and both have a 30 second reload.

The only other ship with 15in guns currently is Bismarck, who has only 8, but has a 26 second reload.

 

Just give the Italian 15in guns the same 30 second reload as the 16in gun armed ships, and that should do the trick.


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If Vittorio Veneto or Roma get into they will be the first Italian for WG. That IF they come.

I like to see one Italian ship on the game that's Italian Heavy cruiser: Pola:

Pola was a Zara-class heavy cruiser of the Italian Regia Marina (Royal Navy). She was built in the Odero-Terni-Orlando shipyard in Livorno in the early 1930s and entered service in 1932. She was the third of four ships in the class, which also included Zara, Fiume, and Gorizia. Pola was built as a flagship with a larger conning tower to accommodate an admiral's staff. Like her sisters, she was armed with a battery of eight 203-millimeter (8.0 in) guns and was capable of a top speed of 32 knots (59 km/h; 37 mph).

Pola initially served as the flagship of the 2nd Squadron, and in 1940 she led the squadron during the battles of Calabria and Cape Spartivento, in July and November, respectively. During the latter engagement she briefly battled the British cruiser HMS Berwick. Pola was thereafter reassigned to the 3rd Division, along with her three sister ships. The ship took part in the Battle of Cape Matapan in late March 1941. During the battle, she was disabled by a British airstrike. Later, in a fierce night engagement in the early hours of 29 March, Pola, Zara, Fiume, and two destroyers were sunk by the British Mediterranean Fleet with heavy loss of life.


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Pola would probably be the premium I would want as well. I'm kind of hopeful the last hull upgrade,  B or C hull(?), for the T8 cruiser will follow the looks of Bolzano. I fear the Italian cruisers will be the Pensacolas of tier 8 due to the secondary mast. :ohmy: It will be interesting to see if WG uses the horn style EC3 radar or planned mattress style radar system for theorized late war refits.

 

As it regards the 381/50 mod 34 I imagine a non-linear accuracy cone will be provided. We kind of see this on the Dunkerque now with it being quite good under 14km and ehhh after this range. The Italian model I hope to have good accuracy up to 19km as originally designed. Richelieu will be right with or just behind the lethality of the Italian rifles. The Russians I imagine might somehow sneak in the 406/50 B37 and make this all moot. :popcorn: 


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Personally, I'd rather see Gorizia (not surprising, given my signature lol). She had an interesting career, and saw pretty much every major battle fought in the theatre, except for the sone where her sisters were sunk. She's not as unique looking as Pola, but she had some unique features. Also, due to her surviving longer, she did have a bit, just a bit, better AA, and there were plans to swap out her 13.2mm mountings for 20mm mounts, which I'm fairly certain would've been single mounts. Also, for another uniqueness to her appearance (as these would likely have no in-game use), she had the 120mm/15 guns for launching starshells removed(her sisters went down with theirs still mounted). These were replaced by 37mm mounts.

 

So, while all the Zara's were sunk with this AA layout:

 

6x2 100mm/47

4x2 37mm/54

4x2 13.2mm/76

 

Gorizia had:

 

6x2 100mm/47

6x2 37mm/54

4x2 13.2mm/76 <-- Planned to be swapped out for 4x1 20mm/65. not realized because of the armistice.

 

I know it's not much of a difference, and seeing as Prinz Eugen has established that ships don't need to have any differences in stats to be sold as premiums, but still, it would be nice to get something extra for spending real money on the ship.

 

Career-wise, as I mentioned, she fought in pretty much every action except for the battle where her sisters were lost. She also proved to the only surviving Italian heavy cruiser that could consistently torpedobeat, avoiding many different torpedo attacks, something Bolzano and the Trento sisters couldn't boast. 

 


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Bolzano seems like an obvious choice for a premium Italian cruiser, since there's really not any place for her in the tech tree. She wouldn't be another Prinz Eugen situation because while very similar to Trento she wouldn't be an outright clone, and she's pretty enough to merit inclusion in some form.


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Bolzano seems like an obvious choice for a premium Italian cruiser, since there's really not any place for her in the tech tree. She wouldn't be another Prinz Eugen situation because while very similar to Trento she wouldn't be an outright clone, and she's pretty enough to merit inclusion in some form.

 

I agree, as a tier 7, imo.

I actually made a thread about it a while ago that I'm currently redoing, as the old one is heavily out-of-date


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Bolzano should be at least the intermediary hull for the T7 cruiser. As it had the more modern FCS and rifle upgrade. If there should be a third hull with theorized late war AA outfit I will be happy. I will gladly pick up Bolzano as a tier 7 premium. Eugen has been a good premium for me. *shrug*


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Bolzano seems like an obvious choice for a premium Italian cruiser, since there's really not any place for her in the tech tree. She wouldn't be another Prinz Eugen situation because while very similar to Trento she wouldn't be an outright clone, and she's pretty enough to merit inclusion in some form.

^

 

I agree, as a tier 7, imo.

I actually made a thread about it a while ago that I'm currently redoing, as the old one is heavily out-of-date

^ I agree on both

Bolzano should be at least the intermediary hull for the T7 cruiser. As it had the more modern FCS and rifle upgrade. If there should be a third hull with theorized late war AA outfit I will be happy. I will gladly pick up Bolzano as a tier 7 premium. Eugen has been a good premium for me. *shrug*

^ I'm the same. It will be nice to Bolzano, Pola, & Vittorio Veneto or Roma on the game.  :hmm:​ Let's see if they come out this year or next year.


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