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tooboku

Proposed Yugumo vs. Current Kagero

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Just in the mood to compare the current Tier 9 IJN torpedo boat with the proposed one and decide if I need to change my strategy...

Overall, I think folks sailing Kagero with F3s might be in for a challenge if they want to continue playing that way. Not sure if Type 93 mod. 1 would be an option of Yugumo as far as I know but I think it's safe to say that WG would rather not have them in the game. Yugumo actually seems like a slightly less capable torpedo boat overall compared to Kagero just because of concealment alone but the gun specs seem to more than make up for it. The irony is that you think that splitting the tech tree to represent "gun boats" vs. "torpedo boats" was going to lead to further specialization in either path. Then again, I suppose that the two lines merge back together at Yugumo.
 

That said, I'll probably be retaining the same captain skills and mods on Yugumo as Kagero. (1-BFT, 2-LS, 3-SI, 4-AFT, 5-CE, 2-EM & 1-MA1, 2-AS1, 3-GFCS2, 4-P1, 5-P2, 6-CS1)

 

Also according to this crude calculation I have at the bottom, Fletcher is a better torpedo boat than either of them.

 

Specification

Kagero - Hull B

(5.11.1)

Yugumo - Hull B (?)

(SEP 13)

Fletcher - Hull B

(5.11.1)

Udaloi - Hull B

(5.11.1)

Shimakaze

(5.11.1)

Health 15,100 15,500 17,100 18,800 17,900
Length 118.5 m 119.3 m 114.7 m 139.7 m (?) 129.5 m
Beam 10.8 m 10.8 m 12.1 m 13.7 m (?) 11.2 m
Side Plating 19 mm 19 mm 19 mm 19 mm 19 mm
Engine 52,000 hp 52,000 hp 60,000 hp 84,500 hp 75,000 hp
Speed 35.0 kn 35.5 kn 36.5 kn 40.0 kn 40.0 kn
Rudder 640 m @ 2.7 s 640 m @ 3.5 s 560 m @ 3.0 s 610 m @ 5.3 s 690 m @ 3.0 s
Surface Concealment 6.8 km 7.0 km 7.4 km 9.2 km 7.6 km
Air Concealment 3.8 km 3.9 km 4.0 km 4.0 km 4.2 km
Camo & CS Mod 1 5.9 km 6.1 km 6.4 km 8.0 km 6.6 km

Concealment Expert +

CS Mod 1 + Camo

5.2 km 5.4 km 5.7 km 7.1 km 5.9 km
Main Gun 3x2 127 mm 3x2 127 mm 5x1 127 mm 3x2 130 mm 3x2 127 mm
180° Turn 30.0 s 25.7 s 5.3 s 9.0 s 25.7 s
Expert Marksman 21.2 s 18.9 s 4.9 s 8.0 s 18.9 s
Main Battery Mod 1 25.5 s 21.8 s 4.5 s 7.7 s 21.9 s
Reload Time 9.0 s 5.7 s 3.3 s 4.6 s 6.9 s
Basic Firing Training 8.1 s 5.1 s 3.0 s 4.1 s 6.2 s
Rate of Fire - Single 7.4 11.7 20.2 14.5 9.7
Rate of Fire - All Guns 44.4 70.2 101.0 87.0 58.0
Base Range 9.4 km 11.1 km 12.9 km 12.1 km 9.8 km
AFT Range 11.3 km 13.3 km 15.5 km 14.5 km 11.8 km
AFT + GFCS Mod 2 12.8 km 15.1 km 17.5 km 16.5 km 13.3 km
Max Dispersion 86 m 88 m (?) 112 m 98 m 88 m
AFT + GFCS Mod 2 Dispersion 117 m 120 m (?) 152 m 133 m 120 m
Noise Penalty 3.8 km 3.8 km (?) 3.8 km 5.9 km 3.8 km
Stealth Fire Distance 9.0 km 9.2 km 9.5 km 13.0 km 9.7 km
Stealth Fire Room 3.7 km 5.9 km 8.0 km 3.5 km 3.7 km
Muzzle Velocity 915 m/s 915 m/s (?) 792 m/s 900 m/s 915 m/s
AP Damage 2200 2200 2100 2600 2200
AP DPM 97,778 154,386 212,121 226,087 127,536
HE Damage 2100 2100 1800 1600 2100
HE DPM 93,333 147,368 181,818 139,130 121,739
HE Fire 9% 9% 5% 8% 9%
AA Mounts

10 x Single 25 mm,

3 x Triple 25 mm

10 x Single 25 mm,

3 x Triple 25 mm (?)

7 x 2 Single 20 mm,
5 x Twin 40 mm,
5 x 127 mm
7x2 25 mm,
2x4 37mm
14 x Single 25 mm,
1 x Dual 25 mm,
2 x Triple 25 mm,
3 x 2 127 mm
AA DPS 40 57 136 65 72
Torpedo Tubes 2x4 610 mm 2x4 610 mm 2x5 533 mm 3x3 533 mm 3x5 610 mm
180° Turn 7.2 s 7.2 s 7.2 s 7.2 s 7.2 s
Torpedo Options Type 93,
Type 93 mod. 2,
Type F3
Type 93 mod. 2,
Type F3
Mk15 mod 3.,
Mk16 mod. 1
15-36 mod. 2,
15-39 mod. 2
Type 93,
Type 93 mod. 3,
Type F3
Best Torpedo Type F3 Type 93 mod. 2 Mk16 mod. 1 15-39 mod. 2 Type 93 mod. 3
Reload Time 104.0 s 120.0 s 106.0 s 116.0 s 153.0 s
Range 8.0 km 10.0 km 10.5 km 10.0 km 12.0 km
Speed 76 kn 67 kn 66 kn 67 kn 67 kn
Detection 1.9 km 1.7 km 1.4 km 1.2 km 1.9 km
Damage 21,366 20,966 19,033 15,100 23,766
√((Ship Speed * Torp Range * Torp Speed * √((1 + Tubes) ^ Launchers) * (60/Reload time) * Damage) / (Torp Detection ^ 2 * Ship Concealment ^ 2))

3,256 (Type F3)

 

3,523 (Type 93 mod. 2)

3,447 (Type 93 mod. 2)

 

3,185 (Type F3)

4,627 3,880 5,206

 

 

For reference, specs on Yuugumo have been taken from the following video. Again, specs are not final.

Edited by tooboku
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Yeah.  USNs are better on torps too now.  

 

"now". They HAVE been for a while. USN DDs beat out IJN DDs in EVERY SINGLE ASPECT save for detection range- and since USN DDs have smoke they abuse to hell that doesn't even matter.

 

IJN dds are supposed to be the torp boats with better long range torpedoes. USN DDs get even BETTER torpedoes with slightly shorter range- that doesn't matter because longer range shots past 15km are COMPLETE hail marys.

 

IJN dds already have worse guns to compensate for the "better torps" that they DO NOT EVEN HAVE anymore.

 

IJN dds maneuverability for survival means NOTHING when USN dds have a minigun with massive range strapped onto them- and can sit in smoke and fire with impunity without the ability to fight back outside of blind firing a "wall" of torps that they can EASILY dodge.

 

 

USN DDs... need... nerfs.

 

WG is insistent on destroying the IJN DD line. It's obvious at this point.

 

EDIT: Not to mention these new ships are taking away the IJN DD line's "national flavor". They're supposed to be torp boats and they're turning them into carbon copies of USN DDs- just with worse stats because IJN DDs being able to compete and being fairly balanced is a nono up in the st petersburg offices.

Edited by Stratego89
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"now". They HAVE been for a while. USN DDs beat out IJN DDs in EVERY SINGLE ASPECT save for detection range- and since USN DDs have smoke they abuse to hell that doesn't even matter.

 

IJN dds are supposed to be the torp boats with better long range torpedoes. USN DDs get even BETTER torpedoes with slightly shorter range- that doesn't matter because longer range shots past 15km are COMPLETE hail marys.

 

IJN dds already have worse guns to compensate for the "better torps" that they DO NOT EVEN HAVE anymore.

 

IJN dds maneuverability for survival means NOTHING when USN dds have a minigun with massive range strapped onto them- and can sit in smoke and fire with impunity without the ability to fight back outside of blind firing a "wall" of torps that they can EASILY dodge.

 

 

USN DDs... need... nerfs.

 

WG is insistent on destroying the IJN DD line. It's obvious at this point.

 

EDIT: Not to mention these new ships are taking away the IJN DD line's "national flavor". They're supposed to be torp boats and they're turning them into carbon copies of USN DDs- just with worse stats because IJN DDs being able to compete and being fairly balanced is a nono up in the st petersburg offices.

I think that IJN DDs just need buffs. Also, either High tier BBs need nerfs or cruisers need buffs.

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To be fair, I think game balance is a higher priority than historical accuracy. (While both take a back seat to Russian sentimentality)

The challenge is balancing the Type 93 into the game. It seems to be more difficult than anyone anticipated.

 

Some of the challenges are that

- Limiting the amount of times torpedoes could be reloaded doesn't seem like a path anyone wants to take.

- Longer torpedo reloads doesn't seem like an option either.

- Accurate torpedo speeds and concealment specs are bound to frustrate people on all sides as one side misses a lot and the other seems to randomly blow up for no reason.

- 20 km of range might not be reliable but it also takes no skill and it clutters the map

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Was ready to unlock Fubuki think We'll hang tight for a bit...

 

Why hang tight for a bit? Precedence highly suggests that unlocking Fubuki and buying it now will just mean that you have the T6 Fubuki in port after the change as well as the new T8. I dont get why people wait on unlocking ships that are getting re-tiered, all you're ensuring is that you're missing out on a free T6, captain and slot.

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Why hang tight for a bit? Precedence highly suggests that unlocking Fubuki and buying it now will just mean that you have the T6 Fubuki in port after the change as well as the new T8. I dont get why people wait on unlocking ships that are getting re-tiered, all you're ensuring is that you're missing out on a free T6, captain and slot.

 

It's even better how some people are selling their IJN destroyers in fear of the tree change.

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Honestly, I would feel better if the IJN just had a gigantic range buff.  We have high velocity cannon with great fire chance, if they provided a good invisifire zone that would be great.  Think small scale Zao.  You can't make the argument that with the rate of fire and turret traverse this makes any sort of knife fighting DD.  IJN needs to stay at range to be effective, an unseen.

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"now". They HAVE been for a while. USN DDs beat out IJN DDs in EVERY SINGLE ASPECT save for detection range- and since USN DDs have smoke they abuse to hell that doesn't even matter.

 

IJN dds are supposed to be the torp boats with better long range torpedoes. USN DDs get even BETTER torpedoes with slightly shorter range- that doesn't matter because longer range shots past 15km are COMPLETE hail marys.

 

IJN dds already have worse guns to compensate for the "better torps" that they DO NOT EVEN HAVE anymore.

 

IJN dds maneuverability for survival means NOTHING when USN dds have a minigun with massive range strapped onto them- and can sit in smoke and fire with impunity without the ability to fight back outside of blind firing a "wall" of torps that they can EASILY dodge.

 

 

USN DDs... need... nerfs.

 

WG is insistent on destroying the IJN DD line. It's obvious at this point.

 

EDIT: Not to mention these new ships are taking away the IJN DD line's "national flavor". They're supposed to be torp boats and they're turning them into carbon copies of USN DDs- just with worse stats because IJN DDs being able to compete and being fairly balanced is a nono up in the st petersburg offices.

 

USN DDs don't need a nerf, it takes a good Captain to play em' that's for sure.

 

If IJN had faster gun reload and more gun range they'd be OP.

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USN DDs don't need a nerf, it takes a good Captain to play em' that's for sure.

 

If IJN had faster gun reload and more gun range they'd be OP.

 

No. It really doesn't

 

I don't WANT them to have faster gun reload and range. I WANT their torpedoes to be not-crapagain, better than USN's like they're supposed to be.

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No. It really doesn't

 

I don't WANT them to have faster gun reload and range. I WANT their torpedoes to be not-crapagain, better than USN's like they're supposed to be.

 

Pretty sure the torpedoes aren't as good since IJN DDs are torp boats, WG wanting to prevent deletion of a ship just because the torp boat spammed and got lucky. Makes sense to me.

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Pretty sure the torpedoes aren't as good since IJN DDs are torp boats, WG wanting to prevent deletion of a ship just because the torp boat spammed and got lucky. Makes sense to me.

 

On the other hand, every BB detonation I've ever been party to was a lucky torpedo hitting me near a front turret barbette. Very fun and engaging... would much rather have just taken dmg from an appropriately fat IJN torp. Luck is... a suspect reason for justification. 

 

But, that's all irrelevant. It'll be interesting to see how this all shakes out. All of my IJN DD play has been focused on using torp acceleration and launching as close as I dare  (i cannot wrap my head around *regularly* launching 15km torps as an attack strategy). So, I suspect I'm personally only in line for buffs to my style of play.

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First you might get your concealment values right because besides Shimakaze they are all wrong.

Kagero has 5.4, Yugumo 5.5, Fletcher 5.8 and Udaloi 7.2 if they are all equipped with Camo and Concealment Module + CE.

Second what makes you think that Yugumos top torpedo is the 10km version and the Kagero on is the F3? Both ships have both torpedos avaiable with the exact same stats and reload so why would the best one be different? Is that because of that obscure formula you created? And for the torpedo itself the F3 is im far better and way more fun than the Fletcher torps. The Fletcher only has 2 torpedos more what could make her superior in someone's eyes.

Edited by tmGrunty

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Why hang tight for a bit? Precedence highly suggests that unlocking Fubuki and buying it now will just mean that you have the T6 Fubuki in port after the change as well as the new T8. I dont get why people wait on unlocking ships that are getting re-tiered, all you're ensuring is that you're missing out on a free T6, captain and slot.

 

Precedence suggests that people will have the same tier not the same ship. So if someone has a Mutsuki now they will end up with a Fubuki. 

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Precedence suggests that people will have the same tier not the same ship. So if someone has a Mutsuki now they will end up with a Fubuki. 

 

That and the fact WG would not dare take about 200k XP from you..

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One pleasant surprise about Yugumo after trying to do a similar spreadsheet for Akizuki.
Yugomo is way better at starting fires. Udloi of course beats her but we at least get that.

My calculation is crude and may not actually represent it but it is... Time to Fire = 60 / ( Rounds per Minute * Fire Chance)
Considering all hits are perfect and the target has no other bonuses.

 

Specification Kagero Hull B (5.11.1) Yuugumo [Hull B?] (SEP 13) Fletcher Hull B (5.11.1) Udaloi Hull B (5.11.1) Shimakaze (5.11.1)
(Expected) Time To Fire 15.0 s 9.5 s 11.9 s 8.6 s 11.5 s

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Why hang tight for a bit? Precedence highly suggests that unlocking Fubuki and buying it now will just mean that you have the T6 Fubuki in port after the change as well as the new T8. I dont get why people wait on unlocking ships that are getting re-tiered, all you're ensuring is that you're missing out on a free T6, captain and slot.

 

Does that mean I should buy the Hats back now?

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They're not as good. They're better.

 

Doesn't matter, statistically speaking USN DDs spam torps less than IJN.

 

If you look at the bigger picture, it makes sense.

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Doesn't matter, statistically speaking USN DDs spam torps less than IJN.

 

If you look at the bigger picture, it makes sense.

 

Yes. And they also spam 1000x more guns.

 

If you look at the ACTUAL picture- it doesn't.

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Doesn't matter, statistically speaking USN DDs spam torps less than IJN.

 

Where are these stats? I'm sure they can be tracked. Curious.

 

That said, I don't think that player behavior is a good reason to reward USN DDs with better torpedoes when they already have better guns.

 

The Type 93s are a problem, I get it, but I really don't understand what is wrong with simply extending reload times. I don't know but I think it might really be that simple.

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Yes. And they also spam 1000x more guns.

 

If you look at the ACTUAL picture- it doesn't.

 

I've enough of going back and forth now, there's no point since you refuse to accept anything.

 

 

Where are these stats? I'm sure they can be tracked. Curious.

 

That said, I don't think that player behavior is a good reason to reward USN DDs with better torpedoes when they already have better guns.

 

The Type 93s are a problem, I get it, but I really don't understand what is wrong with simply extending reload times. I don't know but I think it might really be that simple.

 

Statistics are gleaned from TPH/R some friends and thinking.

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Does that mean I should buy the Hats back now?

 

So far, every time WG has dropped something in tier, owning that vehicle resulted in owning its replacement with a fresh crew, and the downtiered vehicle in a new slot.
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So far, every time WG has dropped something in tier, owning that vehicle resulted in owning its replacement with a fresh crew, and the downtiered vehicle in a new slot.

 

Never lived through this yet. I was expecting to use the 1,000,000 XP I had on Fubuki and Kagero. At least it might not have had to be converted to free XP.

This is good though. I get Hats back, blaze away on Poi and run down all the Bensons at tier 8. Akizuki is a freaking beast.

 

I've enough of going back and forth now, there's no point since you refuse to accept anything.

 

Statistics are gleaned from TPH/R some friends and thinking.

 

Sorry, what is TPH? Does it list average number of torpedoes launched?

 

Honest... in my experience I see just as many Gearings nowadays doing the lane spam as the Shimakazes. It's just easier to notice 15 than it is 10. Heck, anyone sees 5 wide they assume it's the Shimakaze. It's purely a perception thing I bet.

Edited by tooboku

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