Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section.
Lert

Proposed rework to how capital ships work with smoke

  

67 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you like shell-fire to disperse smoke, based on the caliber of shells fired?

    • Yes
    • No
    • I am undecided but still wish to partake in this poll like all the cool kids

45 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

39,263
[HINON]
Alpha Tester
27,725 posts
26,569 battles

Inspired by Mouse's thread which seeks to address the same issue, but goes about it in a slightly different way. Where Mouse suggests different ship classes have different benefits from smoke, I'm going to address how smoke works with guns, and gun calibers.

 

In real life smoke is nothing but a cloud of particles, that are influences by air pressure and wind conditions. Guns are tubes that propel a physical object (IE, the shell) by means of an explosion, which is nothing but a rapid increase of pressure behind the shell.

 

See where I'm going with this?

 

It's never made sense to me that smoke remains present for the same period of time, regardless of whether it's left alone, or there are four battleships inside it all throwing 16" shells, creating massive bursts of air pressure around their guns.

 

So what I'm proposing is, unlike a flat modifier to what ship class gets what concealment bonus from smoke, that smoke duration is affected by what's sitting in it and what's firing in it.

 

As such I propose the following changes:

 

- Smoke gets 'hitpoints', or 'duration points', DP.

- A smoke cloud's DP slowly drains while it's active.

- Ships inside the smoke firing their guns drain these DP.

- The larger the gun caliber, the more DP it drains.

 

That way:

 

- A destroyer can still set smoke to obscure any allied ship from being seen, and thus reliably shot at.

- A destroyer can still sit in the smoke and fire out of it, provided someone is spotting for him. This will affect the smoke cloud, causing it to disperse sooner than if left alone. Say, DP - 5% per salvo.

- CLs would disperse the smoke cloud even quicker. Say, DP - 15% per salvo.

- CAs quicker still. Say, DP - 25% per salvo.

- BBs would completely disperse the smoke cloud in one or two salvos, at most. Say, DP - 50% per salvo.

 

These DP penalties are all open to balancing ofcourse.

 

This makes it so that the smoke cloud loses much of its offensive capabilities, becoming vastly more defensive in nature. Ships in smoke would need to make a choice: Fire and disperse the smoke cloud, or use its concealment to turn around and vacate the area to live longer?

 

<Edit>

 

As per Kombat_WOMBAT's suggestion,

 

You could play with this modifer by ship tier, class, or nationality. Maybe USN smoke lasts longer, but it isn't as dense (aka: lower detection buff).

 

Different nationalies could have different characteristics in their smoke where the amount of DP could stand in for smoke density and the like.

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,605
[HINON]
Beta Testers
3,931 posts
8,150 battles

I voted yes, seems like a cool idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
819
[WOLFG]
Members
4,300 posts

It sounds good and complex enough to be considered interesting, but knowing WG, won't they pick a simplistic route to make mechanics easy to understand for the players with lower processing power? Also, this DP mechanic can kinda punish a DD that's trying to hide in smoke to survive a specific situation and a bigger ship comes inside it and drains it's duration by trying to smoke fire. Sure that'd be a rare scenario but it'd certainly be annoying if it happened.

 

I'd still prefer them to do something as simple as smoke just not concealing ships firing guns bigger than 179mm at all, making them detected in smoke as they shoot. That way it can't potentially hurt the DD that put the smokescreen there at least.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39,263
[HINON]
Alpha Tester
27,725 posts
26,569 battles

Also RIP Mikhail Kutuzov 

 

Ships like the Kutozov could still drop smoke to conceal themselves to get out of a sticky situation, they just can't park in smoke and fire out with impunity anymore.

 

I'd still prefer them to do something as simple as smoke just not concealing ships firing guns bigger than 179mm at all, making them detected in smoke as they shoot. That way it can't potentially hurt the DD that put the smokescreen there at least.

 

Thats as valid a suggestion as mine. However, yours won't promote active, dynamic play as much as mine would.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
4,191 posts
12,721 battles

I said yes but would like to see smaller %'s for the cruisers and battleships as I definitely think the BB one is a bit high .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
149
[SINK]
Members
712 posts
3,648 battles

Agree, i like the idea but dont touch dds, they already have a bad time with radar and if the spotting rewards finally come, cvs will be perma spotting them all game

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
5,202 posts

What if being in smoke simply modified your current detection range by a percentage. Maybe your detection range is reduced to 30%? The minimum detection of 2km would remain if your "smoked detection" dropped below that. 

 

Example:

A battleship with a 20km detection range has a 6km detection range in smoke

A cruiser with a 10km detection range has a 3km detection range in smoke

A destroyer with 5km detection range has 2km detection range since that is the minimum allowable. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
819
[WOLFG]
Members
4,300 posts

Thats as valid a suggestion as mine. However, yours won't promote active, dynamic play as much as mine would.

 

That's true, I won't deny I consider your idea interesting and despite that downside of it being misused by teammates and potentially punishing the destroyer or the ship setting smoke, it does promote more coordination between teammates to make the most of it. It'd not entirely prevent smoke abuse though, with the current smoke mechanics a ship can be behind the smoke screen rather than inside it and still be obscured by it, firing to the other side and not drain the smoke duration.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
166
[5IN]
Members
1,371 posts
33,735 battles

That is a decent idea. I don't mind abusing smoke at all but frankly invisifire is a stupid mechanic.

 

I could be a simple 1 second of smoke less per barrel under 140 mm, 2 seconds less over that and BBs 10 seconds per barrel.

 

I think the premise is sound. Use the smoke to hide and evade for full duration or use it for dealing dmg for less duration.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,455
[FOXEH]
Beta Testers
3,985 posts
2,373 battles

What if guns over a certain caliber introduced the same detection penalty when firing from smoke as they would in open water, but for a shorter duration?

 

As an example, if the usual detection penalty lasts for 20 seconds, when firing from smoke it would change to something along the lines of:

​>300mm:  15sec

200-299mm:  10sec

140-199mm:  5sec

<140mm:  no penalty

 

Anyway, just a thought.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39,263
[HINON]
Alpha Tester
27,725 posts
26,569 battles

I'd rather that when an enemy with guns over 203mm become vulnerable to spotting when they fire in smoke. Boom, simple.

 

That's not really going to affect the stagnant sit-and-shoot-HE flamethrowing-smoke-clouds meta though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
4,982 posts
6,249 battles

 

That's not really going to affect the stagnant sit-and-shoot-HE flamethrowing-smoke-clouds meta though.

 

Not entirely, but it gets rid of BBs sniping from smoke, which is something I'm very worried about happening again in ranked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
7,307 posts
3,304 battles

What if being in smoke simply modified your current detection range by a percentage. Maybe your detection range is reduced to 30%? The minimum detection of 2km would remain if your "smoked detection" dropped below that. 

 

Example:

A battleship with a 20km detection range has a 6km detection range in smoke

A cruiser with a 10km detection range has a 3km detection range in smoke

A destroyer with 5km detection range has 2km detection range since that is the minimum allowable. 

 

I would agree if the detection reduction was a little less lenient. Something like 45% so a 20km BB would be spotted at 9km. You have to remember that only key BBs even have spotting range over 18km.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
522
[IN3PT]
Beta Testers
1,703 posts
6,511 battles

How about this for approximating your proposal whilst being relatively easy to implement / understand for newbies :

 

Smoke works essentially as it does now , except when you fire your guns the visibility "bloom" effect increase to normal visibility becomes the range at which you're spotted. This would serve as a minor nerf to DDs smoking and shooting (though a little harsher on the better gunned RU DDs ) and make smoke progressively less useful as gun caliber increases.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39,263
[HINON]
Alpha Tester
27,725 posts
26,569 battles

The main reason I don't like the idea of differing flat concealment bonuses / penalties based on ship class is because smoke is - well, pretty thick. Damn near opaque.

 

2v3hrnk.jpg

USS Monaghan, a Farragut class destroyer, dropping a smoke screen.

 

I can't even see the rear half of that DD that's laying the smoke. They could be hiding Godzilla in there, and I wouldn't be able to see him. Dispersing the smoke cloud with the muzzle blast from a ship's guns seems much more intuitive to me.

 

Smoke works essentially as it does now , except when you fire your guns the visibility "bloom" effect increase to normal visibility becomes the range at which you're spotted. This would serve as a minor nerf to DDs smoking and shooting (though a little harsher on the better gunned RU DDs ) and make smoke progressively less useful as gun caliber increases.

 

If I read this right, you're proposing that a ship in smoke that fires its guns would get its concealment radius as if not firing. So a ship with 15km concealment and 25km when firing, could sit in smoke and get a 15km concealment when firing?

 

If so, that's a change I could get behind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
5,202 posts

 

I would agree if the detection reduction was a little less lenient. Something like 45% so a 20km BB would be spotted at 9km. You have to remember that only key BBs even have spotting range over 18km.

 

You could play with this modifer by ship tier, class, or nationality. Maybe USN smoke lasts longer, but it isn't as dense (aka: lower detection buff).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,870
[GUTS]
[GUTS]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,389 posts
29,459 battles

OMG, an idea based on physics that can actually be put into effect in the game that even a Noob like me can understand. 

LERT, I LOVE THE IDEA.

You should send link to a DEV.

Solves a lot of issues, while maintaining the true meaning of smoke.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
2,902 posts
6,252 battles

While I like it...  Can't help but think it would be a bit too complicated for the engine to handle.  Can't think of anything else in the game that works similar to this method so it would probably be a game mechanic re-work from the ground up.  But that's just speculation on my part, I don't know the intricacies of the engine or how the game can be modified, way outside my pay grade lol. 

 

However considering we have variable view ranges which depend on firing guns or base concealment, I could see that being implemented into the smoke mechanic.  Instead of 100% cover like it is now have caliber specific smoke variables.  Smoke remains the same, but when firing instead of 100% cover, it drops to say 40% detection range reduction for large caliber guns, smaller guns 70% of their values when firing.  Also, the acquisition duration should be shorter then if you were firing on open water.  Not sure the current duration but much, much shorter than that.

 

the ideal scenario I could see for it, is to give a chance for a closer range ship, who's trying to target the smoke based on tracers, give them a brief period where the enemy ship lights up and allows for an accurate volley or two if the enemy in the smoke screen fires his guns with a close in enemy.  Disable the target lock as well, this way you've got the basics on the ship but can't tell if they're moving in forward or reverse and can't use the torpedo indicator to bypass.  But again just my humble opinion and thoughts on the matter.  More seasoned captains will be along shortly to blow holes in my theory I'm sure :teethhappy:

Edited by vonKaiser

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
5,202 posts

The main reason I don't like the idea of differing flat concealment bonuses / penalties based on ship class is because smoke is - well, pretty thick. Damn near opqaue.

 

2v3hrnk.jpg

USS Monaghan, a Farragut class destroyer, dropping a smoke screen.

 

I can't even see the rear half of that DD that's laying the smoke. They could be hiding Godzilla in there, and I wouldn't be able to see him. Dispersing the smoke cloud with the muzzle blast from a ship's guns seems much more intuitive to me.

 

 

If I read this right, you're proposing that a ship in smoke that fires its guns would get its concealment radius as if not firing. So a ship with 15km concealment and 25km when firing, could sit in smoke and get a 15km concealment when firing?

 

If so, that's a change I could get behind.

 

Realism... bah! :hiding:

Edited by Kombat_W0MBAT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39,263
[HINON]
Alpha Tester
27,725 posts
26,569 battles

While I like it...  Can't help but think it would be a bit too complicated for the engine to handle.  Can't think of anything else in the game that works similar to this method so it would probably be a game mechanic re-work from the ground up.  But that's just speculation on my part, I don't know the intricacies of the engine or how the game can be modified, way outside my pay grade lol.

 

While I do not claim to be a programmer or know the intricacies of this game engine, let us look at the information we do have:

 

- The game supports entities having a number of hitpoints. DP are just a form of hitpoints.

- The game supports something having a timed lifetime. Smoke clouds, flooding, fire.

- The game supports something triggering when the hitpoints run out. IE, a ship that loses its hitpoints sinks.

- The game can detect when something is inside a smoke screen and when not. Re: smoke boundary circles, spotting mechanics.

- The game can detect when a ship is firing.

- The game can tell the difference between gun calibers and ship classes.

 

That is all the game needs to implement my idea. Firing a gun from inside the smoke screen affecting the timer on a timed entity like said smoke screen depending on the gun caliber seem to be to all be things the game can do, they've just not been put together in this combination before.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×