The spiral of nerfs: How we got to the BB armor nerf

[Sirus_Patton]

I'm going to keep this in a truncated version, because I really don't have the time to sit here and pull up game versions and dates for everything.

 

CBT 1:  All ships reworked in manuverability to be closer to their real life counterparts, cushion given to slim DDs and CAs to keep them from turning like bricks.

CBT 2:  CV and DD players cry bloody murder that BBs can easily turn inside their torpedoes.  BB turning radius from tier 5 up is nerfed anywhere from 30 to 150 meteres.

CBT 3:  A mild buff is given in rudder shift to compensate for the larger turn radius.

 

Live 1:  DDs cry that high-tier BBs are too hard to hit with torpedoes, BB maneuverability is further decreased.

Live 2:  Due to their now inability to maneuver, BBs begin to camp towards to rear for entire engagements, preferring the bow on position.

Live 3:  BB rudder shift at tier 8-10 decreased again, further reducing mobility and reinforcing the idea of bow camping.

Live 4:  BBs begin to take too much damage from long-range torpedoes as they can't effectively avoid them.  Queue torpedo nerf spree.

Live 5:  Players complain that BBs do nothing but bow camp, WG nerfs bow armor in order to prevent it from happening.

 

Back during CBT, it was actually viable to constantly be on the move and engage with the enemy team while not just bow camping in reverse.  However we've hit a cycle of nerfs that have left both DD and BB players in a bad position and limited the options for a BB player to actually survive at high tiers.  Now if I had to take a guess, I'd say the armor nerf might actually kill off the population of BBs at high tier.  That removes large amounts of potential damage (XP and credits) for DD and CA players, which then gets blamed on DDs who get further nerfed.

[10T0nHammer]

Wait if BBs are not surviving and CAs are being instantly deleted and DDs are detonating... whos doing all the killing at high tiers?

[_HerrscherOfTheVoid]

Wait if BBs are not surviving and CAs are being instantly deleted and DDs are detonating... whos doing all the killing at high tiers?

 

CVs!

[AspiringCodger]

Wait if BBs are not surviving and CAs are being instantly deleted and DDs are detonating... whos doing all the killing at high tiers?

 

Wait... this forum gave me the impression nobody did any killing in high tier matches as everyone cowers in the corner not wanting to pay a repair bill??

[6Xero9]

Bow armor nerf won't really fix much, considering that at long ranges it's the deck armor being hit.

[Bacl]

Well they want less sniping and more brawling and yet all the facts you stated re going against that lol

 

DD players complaining they cant hit BB with torpedoes? Seriously? Play sneaky and you will score hits, what about a DD shooting from smoke while staying invisible and setting fire every 3 hits? BB player cant do anything about that so yeah "i cant hit with torpedoes so i will simply burn you to death" WG please nerf BB cause obviously were too strong...

 

Torpedoes like sniping with main guns are skill shots, you get rewarded if you do it properly. Torpedoes have much longer CD then main guns but when they hit they have a tendency to really F*** the target with flooding has a nice bonus. If a slow lumbering whale is too agile for you seriously i dont know what to say.

[thegamefilmguruman]

So we'll be back to the cruiser meta like during OBT.

[AspiringCodger]

Well they want less sniping and more brawling and yet all the facts you stated re going against that lol

 

DD players complaining they cant hit BB with torpedoes? Seriously? Play sneaky and you will score hits, what about a DD shooting from smoke while staying invisible and setting fire every 3 hits? BB player cant do anything about that so yeah "i cant hit with torpedoes so i will simply burn you to death" WG please nerf BB cause obviously were too strong...

 

Torpedoes like sniping with main guns are skill shots, you get rewarded if you do it properly. Torpedoes have much longer CD then main guns but when they hit they have a tendency to really F*** the target with flooding has a nice bonus. If a slow lumbering whale is too agile for you seriously i dont know what to say.

 

Part of the problem is that they seem to cater to the potato and tomato players.  It doesn't matter how effective or ineffective a ship CAN be.  It only seems to matter how sub par players are doing in them and how much complaining they're doing.  The bow on armor thing seems a bit ridiculous to me.  JUST SWITCH TO HE!

[6Xero9]

 

Part of the problem is that they seem to cater to the potato and tomato players.  It doesn't matter how effective or ineffective a ship CAN be.  It only seems to matter how sub par players are doing in them and how much complaining they're doing.  The bow on armor thing seems a bit ridiculous to me.  JUST SWITCH TO HE!

 

Nope, mediocre CA players need to have that 1% chance their random firing will land a citadel.

[Samurai_TwoSeven]

Well they want less sniping and more brawling and yet all the facts you stated re going against that lol

 

DD players complaining they cant hit BB with torpedoes? Seriously? Play sneaky and you will score hits, what about a DD shooting from smoke while staying invisible and setting fire every 3 hits? BB player cant do anything about that so yeah "i cant hit with torpedoes so i will simply burn you to death" WG please nerf BB cause obviously were too strong...

 

Torpedoes like sniping with main guns are skill shots, you get rewarded if you do it properly. Torpedoes have much longer CD then main guns but when they hit they have a tendency to really F*** the target with flooding has a nice bonus. If a slow lumbering whale is too agile for you seriously i dont know what to say.

 

I don't know if you're aware of the current high tier (VII-X) meta, but you should know that for destroyers, it's near impossible/suicidal to sit still in a smoke screen and let loose with their guns. A cruiser will close range, ping you with hydro or radar, then you're screwed.

 

As for torpedoes, a competent BB captain can avoid most if not all torpedoes unless they were fired at point blank range.

[Kitsunelegend]

This.... is really fricking eye opening when put like this...holy balls...

 

[Francois424]

So we'll be back to the cruiser meta like during OBT.

 

Makes sense, I'm planning to play cruisers for a while after this patch until and if I read positives about it (you never know).

I am just glad I got to Yamato a couple weeks before the nerf and had the chance to enjoy her in all her glory.

 

 

[Kapitan_Wuff]

Back during CBT, it was actually viable to constantly be on the move and engage with the enemy team while not just bow camping in reverse.  However we've hit a cycle of nerfs that have left both DD and BB players in a bad position and limited the options for a BB player to actually survive at high tiers.  Now if I had to take a guess, I'd say the armor nerf might actually kill off the population of BBs at high tier.  That removes large amounts of potential damage (XP and credits) for DD and CA players, which then gets blamed on DDs who get further nerfed.

 

 

I've just started getting into BBs, really enjoy the aggressive play of the german bbs, like the Bismark.. something tells me I may stop enjoying them if the nerfs keep coming.

[6Xero9]

 

As for torpedoes, a competent BB captain can avoid most if not all torpedoes unless they were fired at point blank range.

 

Or the enemy DDs are able to use teamwork and make a cross firing so that no matter how the BB turns it will get hit.

[jagdoc]

I'm going to keep this in a truncated version, because I really don't have the time to sit here and pull up game versions and dates for everything.

 

CBT 1:  All ships reworked in manuverability to be closer to their real life counterparts, cushion given to slim DDs and CAs to keep them from turning like bricks.

CBT 2:  CV and DD players cry bloody murder that BBs can easily turn inside their torpedoes.  BB turning radius from tier 5 up is nerfed anywhere from 30 to 150 meteres.

CBT 3:  A mild buff is given in rudder shift to compensate for the larger turn radius.

 

Live 1:  DDs cry that high-tier BBs are too hard to hit with torpedoes, BB maneuverability is further decreased.

Live 2:  Due to their now inability to maneuver, BBs begin to camp towards to rear for entire engagements, preferring the bow on position.

Live 3:  BB rudder shift at tier 8-10 decreased again, further reducing mobility and reinforcing the idea of bow camping.

Live 4:  BBs begin to take too much damage from long-range torpedoes as they can't effectively avoid them.  Queue torpedo nerf spree.

Live 5:  Players complain that BBs do nothing but bow camp, WG nerfs bow armor in order to prevent it from happening.

 

Back during CBT, it was actually viable to constantly be on the move and engage with the enemy team while not just bow camping in reverse.  However we've hit a cycle of nerfs that have left both DD and BB players in a bad position and limited the options for a BB player to actually survive at high tiers.  Now if I had to take a guess, I'd say the armor nerf might actually kill off the population of BBs at high tier.  That removes large amounts of potential damage (XP and credits) for DD and CA players, which then gets blamed on DDs who get further nerfed.

 

Yup that about says it all.  Today my first battle I went with Tirpitz, promptly got sunk so lost a boat load of credits.  I closed the game.  The programmers are dogs chasing tails...seems the efforts "improve" the game only make things worse.  The dispersion factor was because of the turret placement on the hull of BB's  the forward turrets had very little dispersion but there was a large dispersion between the forward and rear turrets.  However there was a "sweet spot" where all the turrets had the tightest dispersion.  I went with BB's because I got tired of being sunk in the first 5 min of battle.  Now I get sunk in the first 5 min assuming of course I get to the battle in the first 5 min since BB's are so slow.

[BossmanSlim]

I think this has more to do with an experienced player base taking advantage of the game mechanics rather than nerfs over the course of the game to maneuverability of BBs.

 

Low tiers and early gamer life = charge in and mix it up as it makes hitting shots easier to hit.  Most ships at this level can't be deleted, so why not.

Mid tiers and mid gamer life = start to figure out that if you charge in by yourself, you die.  They also figure out how to aim and hit things at longer range.

High tiers and seasoned gamer life = figure out that you don't want to be first in no matter what and most people have good enough aim to mostly hit targets at long range.

 

Basically you end up with a bunch of people doing the "you go first, no you, no you, no you, fine we'll all just sit around and wait".  If everyone pushes together, then no big deal.  If everyone pushes and most of the rest of the push turns and runs at the first sign of the paint getting scratched, then that person gets hung out to dry and dies.  That person then learns to never be first in the push again.

[Cpt_RickSchwifty]

I sit still in smoke all the time in T6+  

 

I just don't pop my smoke around a bunch of CAs, it's not hard to find that group of 2 or 3 lone BBs out hiding behind some hill miles from the nearest cap point to go punish. It's pretty funny to watch them scatter and all try to hide behind the other. 

 

Especially satisfying to get to about 8km of 2-3 of them and alternate shots on each of them....they don't know who to hide behind or which way to run, gotta grill them potatoes.  

[10T0nHammer]

Actually, I remember starting this game around the second week this game went from CBT to OBT. BBs maneuverability was nerfed because torpedoes had over 15 seconds of reaction time. Of course those 2 seconds they added to the rudder didn't kill BBs. Camping has been around since that second week of OBT.

 

From my experience

BB nerfs:

BBs received a rudder shift nerf to T8+. This was a 2 second 180 degree nerf. So basically, no difference.. (20 seconds to 22).

All ships received more flooding damage per tick, but indirectly affected BBs the most thanks to large pools of health

Thats it, thats all the changes they recieved.

Proposed nerf: Dropping bow armor from 32mm to 28mm

 

BBs buffs:

BBs where given Target Acquisition Mod 1 that spotted torpedoes earlier

BBs got Vigilance which spotted torpedoes sooner.

BBs got massive AA buffs thanks to AA mount rework

BBs got indirect buffs thanks to repeated DD nerfs

BBs got direct buff thanks to HE rework from CBT to OBT

BBs got a direct buff by removing AFT and BFT from cruiser usage.

BBs got a direct buff when they reworked the CV planes (making them all weaker) but this was a buff for CAs as well

BBs got directly buffed with the smoke nerfs for DDs

Proposed buffs: BBs are getting another direct buff by reducing DD armor allowing secondaries to do even more damage.

 

Seems a bit lopsided me thinks....

[The_GoDDfather]

Let's list the buffs and nerfs of all classes. That'd be fun.

[Swine_007]

I notice no one has mentioned the possible changes to DD armour ?  It isn't mentioned on the WG 0.512 blurb because it is no longer happeneing or ... ?  

From AP " 

• At the same time destroyers plating thickness has been decreased, too. This change will affect the performance of battleships auxiluary armament against the destroyers – their small caliber shells will deal more damage on hit.

I would have thought there would be nearly equal outrage for this given that it will also speed up the effect of mutual deletion of DDs engaging each other and likely will INCREASE DDs playing more passively and aiming for long range torp shots/area of denial shots which in turn means BBs will play more passively 

[10T0nHammer]

I notice no one has mentioned the possible changes to DD armour ?  It isn't mentioned on the WG 0.512 blurb because it is no longer happeneing or ... ?  

From AP " 

• At the same time destroyers plating thickness has been decreased, too. This change will affect the performance of battleships auxiluary armament against the destroyers – their small caliber shells will deal more damage on hit.

I would have thought there would be nearly equal outrage for this given that it will also speed up the effect of mutual deletion of DDs engaging each other and likely will INCREASE DDs playing more passively and aiming for long range torp shots/area of denial shots which in turn means BBs will play more passively 

 

People don't care long as their shiny BBs are not affected

[Serge_SC]

So we'll be back to the cruiser meta like during OBT.

 

Yay for cruisers. Mine are mostly docked, as there are way too many BBs, and it is not fun being erased from the game 5 minutes in.

[BrushWolf]

I'm going to keep this in a truncated version, because I really don't have the time to sit here and pull up game versions and dates for everything.

 

CBT 1:  All ships reworked in manuverability to be closer to their real life counterparts, cushion given to slim DDs and CAs to keep them from turning like bricks.

CBT 2:  CV and DD players cry bloody murder that BBs can easily turn inside their torpedoes.  BB turning radius from tier 5 up is nerfed anywhere from 30 to 150 meteres.

CBT 3:  A mild buff is given in rudder shift to compensate for the larger turn radius.

 

Live 1:  DDs cry that high-tier BBs are too hard to hit with torpedoes, BB maneuverability is further decreased.

Live 2:  Due to their now inability to maneuver, BBs begin to camp towards to rear for entire engagements, preferring the bow on position.

Live 3:  BB rudder shift at tier 8-10 decreased again, further reducing mobility and reinforcing the idea of bow camping.

Live 4:  BBs begin to take too much damage from long-range torpedoes as they can't effectively avoid them.  Queue torpedo nerf spree.

Live 5:  Players complain that BBs do nothing but bow camp, WG nerfs bow armor in order to prevent it from happening.

 

Back during CBT, it was actually viable to constantly be on the move and engage with the enemy team while not just bow camping in reverse.  However we've hit a cycle of nerfs that have left both DD and BB players in a bad position and limited the options for a BB player to actually survive at high tiers.  Now if I had to take a guess, I'd say the armor nerf might actually kill off the population of BBs at high tier.  That removes large amounts of potential damage (XP and credits) for DD and CA players, which then gets blamed on DDs who get further nerfed.

 

BB's were way too maneuverable back in CB and into live. The only ship that should have a chance of dodging torpedoes when the evasive maneuvering is started after the drop/ship launched torps are visible is a DD.

 

Live 4) The great torpedo nerf that was going to destroy IJN DD play, right, I am still dodging torpedoes coming out of nowhere.

 

I only have one quick match on this PT but I see the great armor nerf as another tempest in a tea cup that will not change how people play.

[jason199506]

Bow armor nerf won't really fix much, considering that at long ranges it's the deck armor being hit.

 

so in order to reduce camping, we nerf close range BBs and leave camping BBs unaffected

GJ WG

[jason199506]

I notice no one has mentioned the possible changes to DD armour ?  It isn't mentioned on the WG 0.512 blurb because it is no longer happeneing or ... ?  

From AP " 

• At the same time destroyers plating thickness has been decreased, too. This change will affect the performance of battleships auxiluary armament against the destroyers – their small caliber shells will deal more damage on hit.

I would have thought there would be nearly equal outrage for this given that it will also speed up the effect of mutual deletion of DDs engaging each other and likely will INCREASE DDs playing more passively and aiming for long range torp shots/area of denial shots which in turn means BBs will play more passively 

 

no it wouldnt, DDs never had problem penetrating each others' armours except when facing russian cruisers

the decrease of armour just enable the new 100mm ijn dds to penetrate other dds' armour, which make sense as we dont want a whole side branch that can do nothing except lighting fire.by nothing i dont mean atlanta's 594 dmg nothing, i mean only non-pen nothing