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reaper_swpz

Bismarck/Tirpitz and the BB bow armor nerf

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Would like to bring up a point:

 

The proposed change is that BB armor is reduced from 32->28mm, making it so that any shell over 400.4mm can over match without auto bouncing.

 

The issue in question is:

 

Bismarck and Tirpitz are only armed with 380mm guns. As such, they are still subjected to the auto bounce even after the nerf. However, they themselves will be subjected to the over matching rule that will allow their bows to be perforated without being able to reply in kind.

 

So will Bismarck and Tirpitz's 380mms be given some buffs to say auto bounce angle to compensate for this change? Or will they be given different normalization so that they too can damage their peers bow on? Otherwise, it seems like a very one sided exchange where one side retains their immunity but the other - a line that is supposedly optimized for brawling - loses theirs.

 

It's almost as if WG sort of forgot they have 380mm armed ships in T8 rather than 406mm+ only.

Edited by reaper_swpz
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Bismarck is unfortunately doing very well currently in the meta.  And tirpitz is a great ship.  

It would be nice to see them take a small nerf, but not a huge one.  They sound like fun ships to play. 

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The german BB will still have their turtleback citadel armor which makes them nearly invulnerable to citadels the secondaries/torps will also still be there

 

Now you just need to angle instead of going nose first.

 

also Tirpitz is keeping her armor as far as I know

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Would like to bring up a point:

 

The proposed change is that BB armor is reduced from 32->28mm, making it so that any shell over 400.4mm can over match without auto bouncing.

 

The issue in question is:

 

Bismarck and Tirpitz are only armed with 380mm guns. As such, they are still subjected to the auto bounce even after the nerf. However, they themselves will be subjected to the over matching rule that will allow their bows to be perforated without being able to reply in kind.

 

So will Bismarck and Tirpitz's 380mms be given some buffs to say auto bounce angle to compensate for this change? Or will they be given different normalization so that they too can damage their peers bow on? Otherwise, it seems like a very one sided exchange where one side retains their immunity but the other - a line that is supposedly optimized for brawling - loses theirs.

 

It's almost as if WG sort of forgot they have 380mm armed ships in T8 rather than 406mm+ only.

 

Both ships have much more heavily armed bows than that. This is sharn but all German BB`s follow same model with hugely armored "Straps"

 

Only a tiny portion is even possible to pen and even then its ridiulously low. It will have to go through the upper bow into the HUGELY armored barbette which is round from the front meaning 3 feet left or right from center means it doubles the 400+mm armor because its super sloped.

 

OUYC4nb.png

 
 
So effectively, German BB`s will just get massive buffs as the others wont have these high armor bands and someone can aim low into the box shaped citadel, vs the round super Barbette.
 
Essentially to get a German BB, you have to aim at perfect range for your ropund to drop in perfectly and perfectly to the left and right within a turrets width or else its a sure non pen. This "Nerf" murders US ships the most by far.
Edited by SFC_Storm
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Actually, the simpler solution is adding some patches to the Bismarck/Terpitz of variable bow armor thickness, much like the T 9/10 BB's get. Of course, the thicker bow armor patches will cover less surface area than the T9. It will be a nice gradual progressive increase from T 8 > 9 > 10. I think it would be fitting, since, as you've said, KM BB's are meant to be brawlers. They got piss poor accuracy at range, after all.

Edited by Excield

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Actually, the simpler solution is adding some patches to the Bismarck/Terpitz of variable bow armor thickness, much like the T 9/10 BB's get. Of course, the thicker bow armor patches will cover less surface area than the T9. It will be a nice gradual progressive increase from T 8 > 9 > 10. I think it would be fitting, since, as you've said, KM BB's are meant to be brawlers. They got piss poor accuracy at range, after all.

 

 

They already have them. Thick 70mm patches over the center 1/3rd of armor look at my post

 

This change is retarded, all it hurts is brawling. Anything over 12km is deck armor being hit and not bow....Once more WG is creating problems that are not there to produce amazingly OP/UP canidates.

Edited by SFC_Storm
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They already have them. Thick 70mm patches over the center 1/3rd of armor look at my post

 

This change is retarded, all it hurts is brawling. Anything over 12km is deck armor being hit and not bow....Once more WG is creating problems that are not there to produce amazingly OP/UP canidates.

 

You're right. I guess I didn't quite see it at first, since it's very thin lol

 

Now the question is, how well will it do it's job after the patch. They might want to increase the surface area a bit, I'd think, so it's more flared.

Edited by Excield

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You're right. I guess I didn't quite see it at first, since it's very thin lol

 

Now the question is, how well will it do it's job after the patch. They might want to increase the surface area a bit, I'd think, so it's more flared.

 

 

It works amazingly well. I did tests vs it and unless you are in a 1.5km window it doesnt drop shells in the barbette it simply goes over the deck. This is the Sharn and the Sharn already has 25 hulll+ bands.

 

It took me 10 volleys at perfect range of 8km to land 1 Citadel because as I said, the Barbette face is round. Now when my buddy wiggled it was more like the full 15 mins of firing did not get me 1 citadel. So around 30 volleys didnt get any and who the hell will sit still for you?

 

Barbette looks like this on the front.

 

Autobounce-700mm-350mm-700mm-Autobounce. And those gaps are a few feet apart.

 

Anyways this change will make US ships very very weak as ships like NC will get a amax safe angle of 450ish and Iowa will get less. While German  BB`s will still be absolute beasts.

 

This basically punishes ships with weaker belts who rellied on bow armor, and all because WG doesnt want to change its stupid 14:3 overmatch ratio which is crap to begin with. What we hate now is deck armor camping and why Yammys can eat shells sittign bow on. There 9 inch deck armor protects them NOT the bow armor except up close.

Edited by SFC_Storm
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Would like to bring up a point:

The proposed change is that BB armor is reduced from 32->28mm, making it so that any shell over 400.4mm can over match without auto bouncing. The issue in question is:

 

Bismarck and Tirpitz are only armed with 380mm guns. As such, they are still subjected to the auto bounce even after the nerf. However, they themselves will be subjected to the over matching rule that will allow their bows to be perforated without being able to reply in kind.

So will Bismarck and Tirpitz's 380mms be given some buffs to say auto bounce angle to compensate for this change? Or will they be given different normalization so that they too can damage their peers bow on? Otherwise, it seems like a very one sided exchange where one side retains their immunity but the other - a line that is supposedly optimized for brawling - loses theirs.It's almost as if WG sort of forgot they have 380mm armed ships in T8 rather than 406mm+ only.

 

Surely you aren't suggesting that this is a poorly thought out solution that does nothing to fix the apparent problem it's going to be used for?  :trollface:
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Missed our point entirely.

 

Let's go over that again:

 

  1. Bismarck/Tirpitz have 380mm guns
  2. 28*14.3 = 400.4mm
  3. 400.4 > 380
  4. Bismarck/Tirpitz cannot over match other BB bows yet theirs can be over matched in turn.
  5. Bismarck/Tirpitz will be subjected to multiple 33% penetrations as well as citadels (depending on the angle) while they cannot reply in kind as they still auto bounce from 28mm
  6. This is the problem.

 

Side note, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau are more heavily armored than both Bismarck or Tirpitz. The coverage of their 60mm forward belt is far greater. Just take a look in armor viewer. They also have citadel slope armor where as Bismarck and Tirpitz for some reason - even though they also had this - do not have this as it is not modeled in game. If it is, you can't see it in armor viewer.

Edited by reaper_swpz
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Missed our point entirely.

 

Let's go over that again:

 

  1. Bismarck/Tirpitz have 380mm guns
  2. 28*14.3 = 400.4mm
  3. 400.4 > 380
  4. Bismarck/Tirpitz cannot over match other BB bows yet theirs can be over matched in turn.
  5. Bismarck/Tirpitz will be subjected to multiple 33% penetrations as well as citadels (depending on the angle) while they cannot reply in kind as they still auto bounce from 28mm
  6. This is the problem.

 

Side note, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau are more heavily armored than both Bismarck or Tirpitz. The coverage of their 60mm forward belt is far greater. Just take a look in armor viewer.

 

Or you could angle your ship at a 60-70 degree angle, minimizing your bow profile, and hyper angling your belt armor so that their return fire does nothing as well.

 

Lets be honest though, this patch is meant to buff high tier cruisers bc they weren't already overpowered enough.

Edited by Fog_Battleship_NCarolina
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They should leave Tirpitz alone because she's a premium ship and they said they would not nerf premiums except under extreme circumstances. Leaving her alone would also help to make up for the fact that she carries 380mm rifles and can't over match any of the other their 8 and up ships bow on. 

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sounds like lately wg been pulling at anything to try and fix a game that not only isnt growing. but has actually lost players.

theres alot of issues wg wants to fix. which will also create new issues. the updates come too many too often.

their need to release so many premium ships and the refusal to not release nations that are in demand.

now they are nerfing bbs and dds. and cl will still be inferior.

 

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Don't be too proud of this derpalogical terror Wargaming has planned for us....  It's merely going to bring HE into the realm of overspam again. That is all.

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Maybe... Just leave the Tirpitz and Bismarck's 32mm armor alone?

Those ships werent known for Bow on sniping anyway.

 

Add the Amagi to that list.

 

sounds like lately wg been pulling at anything to try and fix a game that not only isnt growing. but has actually lost players.

theres alot of issues wg wants to fix. which will also create new issues. the updates come too many too often.

their need to release so many premium ships and the refusal to not release nations that are in demand.

now they are nerfing bbs and dds. and cl will still be inferior.

 

Another example of why the beta tester tag means little.

 

1. Every MMO cycles through players, this one has remained steady at around 13k players online at peak times and has been hitting 15k. It has grown since the release.

2. Of course there are. They way you say it makes it sound like they should do nothing at all.

3. Premium ships make them money, which in case you've forgotten is what they do this for..

3a. I don't even know how you came up with that one - they have not refused to release ships for any nation.

4. Cruisers are not inferior, they simply require a different play style.. Better to say that if WG nerf battleship bow armour cruisers will still have the same issues against battleships.

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Add the Amagi to that list.

 

 

Another example of why the beta tester tag means little.

 

1. Every MMO cycles through players, this one has remained steady at around 13k players online at peak times and has been hitting 15k. It has grown since the release.

2. Of course there are. They way you say it makes it sound like they should do nothing at all.

3. Premium ships make them money, which in case you've forgotten is what they do this for..

3a. I don't even know how you came up with that one - they have not refused to release ships for any nation.

4. Cruisers are not inferior, they simply require a different play style.. Better to say that if WG nerf battleship bow armour cruisers will still have the same issues against battleships.

 

4. This!!!  Most pubbies (poor useless b@$*****) don't understand that their primary job is to take out DDs and other cruisers. Unless it's a Ticonderoga class guided missile cruiser, it doesn't nearly have the firepower to delete a battleship. Burn it down, sure... but not delete.

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Or you could angle your ship at a 60-70 degree angle, minimizing your bow profile, and hyper angling your belt armor so that their return fire does nothing as well.

 

Lets be honest though, this patch is meant to buff high tier cruisers bc they weren't already overpowered enough.

 

Then the shots will impact the bow, over match and go right into the flat armor (athwartship) in front of the barbette and either from there, go into the magazine or the citadel below. Even if you don't take citadel hits, you will still take 33% penetrations while your return fire will auto bounce. 406mm shells are more than enough to utterly perforate the 340mm barbette armor at out to 15km in this game as ahistorical as that may be (probably even further but don't recall being hit in those areas at beyond 15km so no data there).

 

Tirpitz currently can be cit from the bow, but in very precise locations, namely A barbette and a shot that hits the tip of the bow at 90 degrees. I have a replay of being hit exactly in this manner and that 340mm barbette armor + the 145-220mm athwartship armor is insufficient to stop a 406mm mark 8 shell. In short, without the bow auto bounce, you're looking at citadels as a very real possibility from being shot forwards.

Edited by reaper_swpz
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I'm kind of annoyed as I just got the bismarck the other day. 

 

You don't encourage BB brawling & CQC fights between them by taking away their "shield" and making them softer.

Edited by scruffycavetroll

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Missed our point entirely.

 

Let's go over that again:

 

  1. Bismarck/Tirpitz have 380mm guns
  2. 28*14.3 = 400.4mm
  3. 400.4 > 380
  4. Bismarck/Tirpitz cannot over match other BB bows yet theirs can be over matched in turn.
  5. Bismarck/Tirpitz will be subjected to multiple 33% penetrations as well as citadels (depending on the angle) while they cannot reply in kind as they still auto bounce from 28mm
  6. This is the problem.

 

Side note, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau are more heavily armored than both Bismarck or Tirpitz. The coverage of their 60mm forward belt is far greater. Just take a look in armor viewer. They also have citadel slope armor where as Bismarck and Tirpitz for some reason - even though they also had this - do not have this as it is not modeled in game. If it is, you can't see it in armor viewer.

 

 

591
Its not. You need to go look at gamemodels3d is shows exactly how much pen is needed to pen each part.

 

The Tirp has a tiny bit less band thickness true, but it has a 350mm barbette with a 240mm bulkhead style plate right in front of it. So angling means its an easy 700mm of armor. Thats assuming it doesn`t hit the band and you are at the perfect range.

 

Now compare this to the new NC which has puny sides compared to Tirp and no turtle back armor. Its so easy to citadel this ship ats it sticks out of the water by 3ft and has a puny 305mm belt.

Worst part is its entire armor scheme is based on bow on bpounces so this goes from being a bow on beast where WG itself said over and over in video DO NOT EXPOSE SIDES AT ALL, to a paltry 400mm max frontal armor. This means any close range BB can and will murder it.

 

So now whats it forced to do? The exact opposite the change entails. It has to sit at range and fight with its terrible dispersion and sigma and even worse armor and got 0 compensation.

 

So would you rather have a Tirp, that almost doesnt change in its role where it still will be the best in class up close? Or a NC whose role completely changes and now is completely naked at any range? It can`t hope to angle its massively thick sides as those are always at risk. So even if the Tirp cannot bow on overmatch all ships, it is in basically the same place as before.

 

This change though is garbage I agree, however its garbage because if they wanted less camping they needed to nerf deck armor of ships like Yammy and others with 9 inch decks that are almost impossible to pen since the arcs are not real.

 

Don't be too proud of this derpalogical terror Wargaming has planned for us....  It's merely going to bring HE into the realm of overspam again. That is all.

OMG this a 100x this. They think spam is bad now, wait till no more BB`s will rush into brawling range of eachother and simply stay angled at range. Its just gonna be harder to hit the enemies deck and HE spam will become almost 100% the reaction from both cruisers and low tier bb`s.

Edited by SFC_Storm
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The meta will just switch from bow camping to island camping.

 

How will the US BB recover?

 

Seriously I have been asking this. If guys admit, which most do that the US are boarderline UP now besides NC and Iowa, how will making those ships much much weaker armor wise with 0 compensation keep them from turning into Dog Sh!t

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