Patch 5.12 Another DD Nerf (Armor Global NERF all DD lines)

[Zhadum101]

It seems that DD were surviving to long against BB secondaries.  DD armor will be reduced further to make BB secondaries more effective.  (Info from the SEA preview)

 

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When you mention CA dies to BB and has no chance... You get....  "BB is the CA counter, the BB should win EVERYTIME"

 

When you mention BB kills DD MUCH MORE OFTEN than CA kills BB (A kill meaning 70% of HP in dmg done)...   The argument should be DD is the BB counter it should win...  you instead get... "But BB needs to have a better chance against its counter because BB is the best ship.  This is WORLD of BB after all."

 

 

 

 

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Lets see how people do against their counters.  How often can the counter do 70% dmg to its predator.

BB vs DD   (About every single game a BB 70% damages a DD)     I DID THREE IN ONE GAME LAST NIGHT with 100% DMG DONE IN A BB

DD vs CA   (Maybe every other game a DD does this)

CA vs BB   (HA 1 in 10 games lucky torps get this done, otherwise forget it)

 

 

WORLD OF BB, why have any other classes in the game.  Lets just do all BB fights as that is the way WG wants it.

[godzilla5549]

THIS IS A PUBLIC TEST

 

PLEASE WAIT UNTIL YOU CAN TEST IT FOR YOURSELF BEFORE ASSUMING THAT IT IS FINAL

[Pope_Shizzle]

I can't imagine any DD other than the Khab being affected by this change.  DD's are already like 19mm maximum armor, which doesn't stop anything, even HE shells.  Reducing the armor may actually be a small buff against AP rounds.  The only DD in the game that was benefitting from superior armor was the Khab.  Why is that important?  With a 50mm strip of armor in the middle of the ship and another at the front, the Khab was taking vastly reduced HE damage from shells.  Why?  Because HE shells to DD's penetrate.  They do 1/3 full damage every hit until saturated.  When HE shells weer hitting the Khab, they were bouncing off doing next to no damage.  It's a good nerf to a paper ship.

[Mavairo]

I have to admit, I'm baffled by the DD change coming. I really don't get the logic behind it, if there even is any to start with.
I wonder though, will it in inadvertently buff DDs against BB main battery, will it make it more difficult to get partial pen dmg with AP on a DD now?

Aside from that rare occurrence where you do get a partial pen or two on a DD, nerfing DD armor won't effect them much vs BBs. BB shells already overpen hardcore on DDs. The reason DDs can take so much damage from a patient BB's guns, is through sheer number of hits and over penetration (7 overpens is still 7k+ after all).
 

This does however, make DDs a great deal more vulnerable to secondary, and gun fire from other DDs and CLs.

[Cpt_RickSchwifty]

All it's going to do is make you think twice before rushing a BB to unavoidable torp range. It's going to make those occasional long range secondary hits hurt just a bit more. It's going to force DDs out a few more KMs to rain fiery death down upon the BBs and it's going to promote Secondary Spec BBs.

 

 

It is not going to stop my Benson from eating you alive in my smoke, it is not going to stop a well played Hatsuhara from laying out a torpedo spread of doom from 8km. 

 

It's going to give CV's some small hope of actually surviving a DDs rush on them, and it's going to make IJN DDs that much weaker and unable to contest caps. 

 

It going to ensure that DDs will need to heavy spec concealment and no longer take the range buff (which most did not). It's going to make large caliber HE rounds finally deal more damage to DDs than AP rounds. AP rounds were by far more damage dealing in raw numbers when fired at most angles at an approaching DD than HE rounds. In that regard it is probably going to be a straight buff as you will now no longer take 3-7k damage from BB ap rounds shot at the bow or stern of your ship, and will just take over pen. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[thepointofluck]

I have to admit, I'm baffled by the DD change coming. I really don't get the logic behind it, if there even is any to start with.

I wonder though, will it in inadvertently buff DDs against BB main battery, will it make it more difficult to get partial pen dmg with AP on a DD now?

Aside from that rare occurrence where you do get a partial pen or two on a DD, nerfing DD armor won't effect them much vs BBs. BB shells already overpen hardcore on DDs. The reason DDs can take so much damage from a patient BB's guns, is through sheer number of hits and over penetration (7 overpens is still 7k+ after all).

 

This does however, make DDs a great deal more vulnerable to secondary, and gun fire from other DDs and CLs.

 

The Akizuki, one of the up coming Japanese DD's, has 100 mm guns and DD armor was enough to block 100mm HE so they changed it so that the ship can at least do damage to other DD's.  Other than that the only guns that benefits are some secondary guns, other than that their will no difference to what armor they have now. 

[Tigermaus]

THIS IS A PUBLIC TEST

 

PLEASE WAIT UNTIL YOU CAN TEST IT FOR YOURSELF BEFORE ASSUMING THAT IT IS FINAL

 

It's in the patch notes for the SEA server.

[thegamefilmguruman]

 

The Akizuki, one of the up coming Japanese DD's, has 100 mm guns and DD armor was enough to block 100mm HE so they changed it so that the ship can at least do damage to other DD's.  Other than that the only guns that benefits are some secondary guns, other than that their will no difference to what armor they have now. 

 

Yup.  The troubling thing is that this nerf also affects premiums, like the Blysk.  I thought WG wasn't in the premium nerfing business.

[godzilla5549]

 

It's in the patch notes for the SEA server.

 

It is in the Public Test Patch notes

[Tigermaus]

 

It is in the Public Test Patch notes

 

Ahh, rgrt. Thanks for the clarification.

[Mavairo]

 

The Akizuki, one of the up coming Japanese DD's, has 100 mm guns and DD armor was enough to block 100mm HE so they changed it so that the ship can at least do damage to other DD's.  Other than that the only guns that benefits are some secondary guns, other than that their will no difference to what armor they have now. 

 

are you sure? Because if you planted a shot through a DD's bow right, with BB guns, the shell would actually have enough time in the ship to get a partial penetrating hit. Not sure where the threshold is for DD armor and ship length vs BB AP shells, relations wise but this might actually buff them vs the main battery, if only slightly.

[thepointofluck]

 

Yup.  The troubling thing is that this nerf also affects premiums, like the Blysk.  I thought WG wasn't in the premium nerfing business.

 

I don't really see it as a nerf, more of a game mechanics change for the up coming release. It may seem like a nerf since it effect the individual statics of a ship but DD bow armor and extremity armor is pretty much standardized across the tiers for gameplay reasons. 

[thepointofluck]

 

are you sure? Because if you planted a shot through a DD's bow right, with BB guns, the shell would actually have enough time in the ship to get a partial penetrating hit. Not sure where the threshold is for DD armor and ship length vs BB AP shells, relations wise but this might actually buff them vs the main battery, if only slightly.

 

The bow even now is not thick enough to arm an AP fuse of a battleship so it will have no effect. It will have to hit a thicker part of the armor afterward to arm. 

[tortelloni]

Overheard at WG:

 

Lesta: People are still playing destroyers, we must weaken them further.

Dev1: We will shorten their torpedo travel, descrease the torpedo travel speed, and increase reload times....oh, they now explode into confetti too, non-damaging

Lesta: Not enough, make them out of aluminum foil too

[Rion12]

Well, as far as the BB vs. DD matchup goes...it might actually work in the DD's favor.

 

Less armor = an even higher chance for overpens at more angles of impact.

 

 

[reaper_swpz]

So how do you expect BB to push if DD simply delete them when they push? Have CA push? But BB delete CA as they try to push. DD push? CA delete them as they push.

 

Rock paper scissors does not work and cannot work for this type of game. For anyone to push, they must be able to defend against all types of damage and all classes in order to lead said push, absorb the damage and remain a potent threat. If BB are to push, they need to be able to a) soak up damage, b) mitigate the damage c) reply to the damage. Bar this, what is the sense in pushing? No one plays matches to be sent back to port with a large repair bill.

 

edit:

 

Rock paper scissors is part of the reason why this game is a mess in terms of the game play. Because BB used to be deleted by DD with ease, BB now camp nonstop. BB's ability to hard counter CA by deleting them is why CA populations are low and as such they are unable to counter DD as they should. CV populations are low because of across the board AA buffs that makes it so that any class regardless of spec can swat planes out of the sky like it's no one's business. All of this has led to this current meta of camp and snipe. In short, it has not worked.

 

WoT has a pretty good model where HT are able to lead pushes with relative confidence that they, with angling, can trust their armor to keep them alive - even against tier 10 TD gold rounds. The exception to this rule is artillery that can 1 shot anyone regardless of angle due to the shots hitting top down where angle does not matter as 3x over match = auto pen. BB's inability to angle and mitigate all damage leads to them not pushing. Yes, they can mitigate AP shellfire, but they cannot mitigate HE, they cannot mitigate torpedo damage. These two are still massive sources of damage. Not something anyone wants to push into, so, let's just all pitch a tent and camp.

 

If we pulled WoT into WoWS and applied the classes here it would be something along the lines of:

 

DD = LT, scout, speed, vision, sometimes damage depending on type (13-90 comes to mind)

CA = MT, scout, speed, vision, accuracy, raw DPM (just look at what Atlanta can do to anyone if allowed to fire without disruption for a mere minute)

BB = HT, armor, HP, alpha damage

CV = SPG, death derp from above

 

At least there would be readily visible roles and not one class fits all as is the case with some ships in this game. There is no actual assigned role to anyone in this game. People think of BBs as tanks, but the higher tier you go, the less "tanky" a BB becomes due to the vastly increased offensive capabilities of all opponents.

[Patton5150]

Armor on DDs reduced due to upcoming IJN DD.

BBs still get blamed.

News at 11.

 

[sulghunter331]

I have just about had it with people complaining that BBs are overpowered. For one thing, what the hell do you think is going to happen to you and your flame throwing cruiser when 14-16 inch shells hit your unarmored sides?

 

Secondly, it's not so much that the destroyers counter battleships, but rather that torpedoes counter battleships. It is only due to the fact that destroyers carry a metric crap-ton of torpedoes that people think that destroyers as a whole are the counter to battleships. The people who are complaining that destroyers are worthless are the ones who use the guns of destroyers. The job of destroyers is to turn the seas into torpedo soup. It is not as exciting as raining HE shells from your pop-guns onto heavily armored battleships, hoping to have a barbecue on the battleship's deck.

 

You think that the free situational awareness on all captains is unfair? Just adapt, use the islands to mask your approach. You are no longer able to just lazily cruise out in the open and dump torpedoes and be done with it. Look for choke points, look for points in the map that battleships are guaranteed to travel through, and dump torpedoes before they even have chance to know that they were spotted by you. The maps have islands, and those islands aren't there for the sole benefit of battleships.

 

Thirdly, the only reason the designers ever put secondaries on battleships was to actually fight off small craft, so that the big main guns don't have to waste there attention on the small ships and focus on the enemy battleships.

[mohawkdriver]

Wargaming fixing things that aren't broken, as usual.

[SPACEDUDE71]

how about dds have a limited load of torps at a given fair cost. then any torps after that gets 5x more costly. would cut down on torp spam

[ClockworkSpectre]

THIS IS A PUBLIC TEST

 

PLEASE WAIT UNTIL YOU CAN TEST IT FOR YOURSELF BEFORE ASSUMING THAT IT IS FINAL

The fact they are even considering such blanket nerfs to an already over nerfed class is a problem in itself, regardless if it is only currently for the public test. 

[WhoTookIt]

how about dds have a limited load of torps at a given fair cost. then any torps after that gets 5x more costly. would cut down on torp spam

 

Yeah, and let's have BBs cost 10x as much as DDs in regards to purchase price, purchase experience, and repair costs too. And when yours sinks in battle you have to wait 20 minutes for it to be repaired, while making it so you only have to wait 2 minutes for a DD. You know, because it seems like you want historical accuracy.

[Cpt_RickSchwifty]

 

The bow even now is not thick enough to arm an AP fuse of a battleship so it will have no effect. It will have to hit a thicker part of the armor afterward to arm. 

 

To FULLY arm, yes. But partial penetrations for upwards of  4k damage are possible now at certain angles. With this change that MAY stop. I am not sure because I think it's more of a time thing via the length of the ship rather than an armor thickness effect when it comes to this particular instance. If partial penetrations stop from BB main guns then it will be a big time help for DDs. 

 

 

[Neon_Jackal]

When HE shells weer hitting the Khab, they were bouncing off doing next to no damage.  It's a good nerf to a paper ship.

 

I guess I don't understand why using AP against Khab is problematic.  And why does being a paper ship warrant nerfing?  

[BlazerSparta]

I recall the other reason for this was to boost the effectiveness of Akizuki against other DDs....