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SeanPwnery

Watertight compartments, Torpedoes, and Flooding-Out

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I've been known to rant from time to time, but I think the particular issue has merit.

 

If a destroyer gets in close and torps you with a decent spread, that's on you - that's generally a failure to pay attention to what's going on around you. I can live with that as frustrating as it might be.

 

When a torpedo plane wing comes in and drops a spread at what *feels* like point-blank range (I know it isn't, it's somewhere between 2-4km in most cases) arm, and hit you with multiple shots in a spread without the realistic AA cover most ships had and without an arm-failure, or dud-rate RNG roll (there were no 100% working, 0 failure-to-arm torpedoes on planes) - that's pretty annoying. Again, I can almost live with that.

 

What I'm not a fan of is the hp DoT/bleedoff after taking a hit; that is utter nonsense. I'll give you a in-game-world example using a upper-tier ship - the North Carolina. I'm in a battle, duking it out with a Tirpitz, Scharnhorst off in the distance, a Cleveland, and a DD I can't see (why? Because the only two DD's on my side died in the first 3 minutes of the battle to the Red-Team's superior DD players :angry:). So I'm WASD'ing away to avoid the Scharnhorsts HE-sniping from way out, I'm blasting all 3 turrets and my secondaries when I swing just enough to get all of them on the Tirpitz nearby, but I'm taking damage obviously in return from both his mains and secondaries. I win that duel, but we're already deep into mid-game, and I'm hovering around roughly 23k hp or so. Two wings of dive bombers are inbound, I'm making maneuvers, there are some hits, I've got multiple fires and the Scharnhorst and Cleveland are closing. I'm forced to use the HP heal, and the repair to stave the burn-off. Oh look! There's a wing of torpedo bombers too... well, I'm already turning I'm only going to take a hit... for 12k.:sceptic:

 

No big deal, the repair had a few seconds left... oh wait... 0.1 seconds, boom - hit, repair didn't stop the flood. Fantastic. I'm down to 11k hp, the repair is off for well over a minute, as is the heal... and I flood all 11k without taking a single hit from the Scharnhorst or Cleveland the entire time.

 

11,000 flood damage - on a North Carolina. Pathetic. Why? Because if you look at the design of a NC - it has One-Hundred-and-Thirty watertight compartments. 130! When a ship is at battle-stations, you can pretty much be assured that the vast majority of those compartments are sealed, with very few exceptions for must-have openings for crew to flex when the need arises. Even so, in most cases, those too can be manually closed in a pinch.

 

Now, I'm not saying that my 66,000 HP should be compartmentalized 130 different ways so when a compartment floods, that I only bleed off the 507hp for that compartment (obviously some explosions will rip through several compartments) - but I think it's fair to say that maybe 4-8 compartments would flood at most from a single hit? 4000 hp "max" bleedoff from a single hit? I could live with that. If I get hit with several torps, obviously that would multiply - but 11k from a single hit - that's flat-out nonsense.

 

WG, you gave us armor layout view - which means you took the time to compartmentalize the ship - why not take into account the ships watertight bulkheads too? I'm not asking for a torpedo nerf - because the burst damage from the initial hit is still devastating, and multiple hits will generally delete your ship before you can flood out anyway - but giving the torps the burst damage *and* a ridiculous flood DoT with a 100% arm-rate and 0% dud rate is a bit excessive. You can take this as a whine or rant - I'm just looking for a little DoT-relief.

 

If you hit me with a full spread, I'll quietly take the delete - you earned it with a great lead-in. If you did it in a DD - that's more on me, or more on my team not spotting you - I can even live with that.

 

Oh, and if you're curious - the team still won. Just a hair over 70k damage (a 4th place finish) before the flooding overtook the pumps - and it's not like my AA didn't try.

 

20160918120448_1_zpsowdxlltp.jpg

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Well, what youre saying makes sense. However, whether or not WG will take the time to compartmentalize every ship to that extent (Midway alone probably has over 200?) Is another question. Also, sneak BB buff thread. 

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in one match yestrrday, i got hit by 5 friendly torps in two occasion by same clemson in my ishizuchy, and still did 110k dmg and survived the match.  they did smoke me up couple times to make it up.    stuff happens.    cv planes are tough to avoid.    hate it when I am bottom tiered against top tier CV.

 

 

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During Beta I proposed battleships get a Comparmentalized Design passive that reduces fire and flooding damage per tick by a percentage, but it was ignored.

 

Also proposed changes to Damage Control that broke it up into teams (IE, an ammo system that would reload after they were used on separate cooldowns) that could only solve 1 problem (IE, to solve 2 fires, you'd have to hit DC twice,) and you had a number of them based on ship type (BBs would have more, IE, more crew to do it). This was also ignored.

Edited by Destroyer_Kiyoshimo

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Flooding is like what, 1% total overall damage?

 

11k of a 66k ship = 1/6th ... so that was 16.667% from a single torpedo in just HP bleedoff, not counting the 12k it did on impact... so basically 33% overall.

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 When a ship is at battle-stations, you can pretty much be assured that the vast majority of those compartments are sealed, with very few exceptions for must-have openings for crew to flex when the need arises.

 

That's not entirely accurate.

 

When called to battle stations, ALL watertight doors were sealed, no exceptions. My uncle Ray was on the U.S.S. Washington when they fought the Karishima. It got so hot during the battle, you would swear they had sunk because everybody was wringing wet from the lack of air circulation. Anybody caught leaving a WT door open during battle stations would be summarily court martialed.

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11k of a 66k ship = 1/6th ... so that was 16.667% from a single torpedo in just HP bleedoff, not counting the 12k it did on impact... so basically 33% overall.

 

I'm speaking globally. Just because you didn't have a Damage control party ready to mash does not.mean flooding is OP. Sometimes you die. 

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That's not entirely accurate.

 

When called to battle stations, ALL watertight doors were sealed, no exceptions. My uncle Ray was on the U.S.S. Washington when they fought the Karishima. It got so hot during the battle, you would swear they had sunk because everybody was wringing wet from the lack of air circulation. Anybody caught leaving a WT door open during battle stations would be summarily court martialed.

 

I was pretty sure of that too (that the entire ship gets sealed) - I literally wrote that just as a "margin of error" type thing - because on the internet, there is always someone out there that will find that one exception and call you out on it as if it were gospel. :teethhappy:
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I'm speaking globally. Just because you didn't have a Damage control party ready to mash does not.mean flooding is OP. Sometimes you die. 

 

Oh, no doubt - what I'm driving at here isn't a complaint about the frequency of the repair party, nor an admission of poor consumable control or timing - it was literally the annoyance of the DoT itself. I've got nothing against the player who launched them, how they led the target or any of that. This was more a simple design element issue that WG seems to have completely ignored when taking into account how actually flooding on warships (hell, even commercial liners with watertight bulkheads) work.

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Not very many people enjoy a DoT. Whole classes in MMOs are predicated on the mechanic. Warlock in WoW for example. It's a DOT because it has ZERO alpha on its own. It's also RNG based, then has to pass the next check which is your Control Party. Flooding out is more bad luck than great skill.

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How often does it happen that someone floods you just after you repaired? Same frequency as detonations? If it happens more then you should pay more attention.

 

If it wasn't so obnoxious to deal with than people may be willing to allow it to happen more often.

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How often does it happen that someone floods you just after you repaired? Same frequency as detonations? If it happens more then you should pay more attention.

 

I'll just point out that you're detracting away from the meaning of my post.

 

I'm not talking about repair crew management, or even taking the hit. It's more about the actual DoT factor after taking the burst damage - it's grossly slanted against ship design realism (yeah I know, that's a dangerous word to use these days 'realism'). Fires are DoT sure, but the healing consumable gives you nearly all of it back so while it hurts initially, it's recoverable by and large (granted you can get away and not take hits until you can fix it).

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How often does it happen that someone floods you just after you repaired? Same frequency as detonations? If it happens more then you should pay more attention.

 

Maybe more often than you think.  Some good CV players will intentionally stagger their TB and DB attacks on a target in an effort to get them to use a DC party, then hit them again to get them flooding or burning yet again.

 

Or for that matter, some HE spammers will watch for someone fixing a fire with a DC party so that they can try to get another fire going.

 

It does happen, and intentionally so.  While I don't play CV's (and so don't do the first one), I do do the HE spamming thing I describe above.

 

 

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How often does it happen that someone floods you just after you repaired? Same frequency as detonations? If it happens more then you should pay more attention.

 

I'll just point out that you're detracting away from the meaning of my post.

 

I'm not talking about repair crew management, or even taking the hit. It's more about the actual DoT factor after taking the burst damage - it's grossly slanted against ship design realism (yeah I know, that's a dangerous word to use these days 'realism'). Fires are DoT sure, but the healing consumable gives you nearly all of it back so while it hurts initially, it's recoverable by and large (granted you can get away and not take hits until you can fix it).

 

If the devs wanted to introduce a very simple way to represent compartmentalization, they could limit the amount of flooding damage taken per torp hit to a fixed (and reasonable) number based on each ship.  I would not, however, expect them to generate detailed internal compartmentalization plans into each ship just to see how torp hits affect each ship.  That seems grossly over-complicated and not worth the development time and effort.

 

 

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Is there $$ for WG to make from putting watertight compartments in multiple nations' worth of BBs and cruisers and aircraft carriers?

 

Didn't think so. The flooding DoT is a cost-effective answer they came up with. There's nothing wrong with CVs and DDs and torp-equipped cruisers waiting your DC so they can burst your belly from alcohol overdose.

 

Besides, flood DoT is much harder than fire DoT because torps have slower reload, require more precise aim, and are easier to dodge. Working as designed.

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Smart DD and torpedo equipped CA's will hold torps for a second or so to wait for potential victims to use their repair before flooding again. Same as HE spammers reset fires intentionally.

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I'll just point out that you're detracting away from the meaning of my post.

 

I'm not talking about repair crew management, or even taking the hit. It's more about the actual DoT factor after taking the burst damage - it's grossly slanted against ship design realism (yeah I know, that's a dangerous word to use these days 'realism'). Fires are DoT sure, but the healing consumable gives you nearly all of it back so while it hurts initially, it's recoverable by and large (granted you can get away and not take hits until you can fix it).

 

​I see, well I know little about the effect of a torpedo strike on a ship. I think you lose multiple compartments after such a blast.

Smart DD and torpedo equipped CA's will hold torps for a second or so to wait for potential victims to use their repair before flooding again. Same as HE spammers reset fires intentionally.

 

True, but how many of those do you encounter in a battle? For me it happens the same frequency as detonations. I also kill cruisers over battleships when I play BB ;p

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What I'm not a fan of is the hp DoT/bleedoff after taking a hit; that is utter nonsense. I'll give you a in-game-world example using a upper-tier ship - the North Carolina. I'm in a battle, duking it out with a Tirpitz, Scharnhorst off in the distance, a Cleveland, and a DD I can't see (why? 

 

No big deal, the repair had a few seconds left... oh wait... 0.1 seconds, boom - hit, repair didn't stop the flood. Fantastic. I'm down to 11k hp, the repair is off for well over a minute, as is the heal... and I flood all 11k without taking a single hit from the Scharnhorst or Cleveland the entire time.

 

11,000 flood damage - on a North Carolina. Pathetic. Why? Because if you look at the design of a NC - it has One-Hundred-and-Thirty watertight compartments. 130! When a ship is at battle-stations, you can pretty much be assured that the vast majority of those compartments are sealed, with very few exceptions for must-have openings for crew to flex when the need arises. Even so, in most cases, those too can be manually closed in a pinch.

 

Now, I'm not saying that my 66,000 HP should be compartmentalized 130 different ways so when a compartment floods, that I only bleed off the 507hp for that compartment (obviously some explosions will rip through several compartments) - but I think it's fair to say that maybe 4-8 compartments would flood at most from a single hit? 4000 hp "max" bleedoff from a single hit? I could live with that. If I get hit with several torps, obviously that would multiply - but 11k from a single hit - that's flat-out nonsense.

 

WG, you gave us armor layout view - which means you took the time to compartmentalize the ship - why not take into account the ships watertight bulkheads too? I'm not asking for a torpedo nerf - because the burst damage from the initial hit is still devastating, and multiple hits will generally delete your ship before you can flood out anyway - but giving the torps the burst damage *and* a ridiculous flood DoT with a 100% arm-rate and 0% dud rate is a bit excessive. You can take this as a whine or rant - I'm just looking for a little DoT-relief.

 

 

 

Well, it's an interesting idea. There is some internal compartmentalization that governs HP loss and damage done by every weapon depending upon where it hits the ship. If a ship has already been holed and badly damage in the bow section to the point where the bow HP pool is exhasted, it is possible for a torpedo that hits there to do zero damage. As far as I know there is no such restriction on flooding damage. 

 

Now, it's entirely possible that a torpedo hit in that scenario will not cause flooding at all, but it would make more sense and balance the mechanic better if that was indeed the case. It would be more interesting if designed like the North Carolina took less flooding damage per hit than ships without that level of internal compartmentalization and flooding protection. Similarly, the 'floating raft' citadel design that was used specifically to keep ships afloat in the event of massive damage to other sections of the ship currently is a huge disadvantage in this game because of how it exposes sections of the citadel above the waterline. If those designs also took less flooding damage (unless the citadel itself was breached), it would provide some advantage to the design that could counteract how much the game punishes certain ships for it.

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The only class that can even get somewhat reliable flooding damage are Carriers.

 

Torpedoes from ships are either telegraphed or rely on you traveling straight the entire time, something you are unlikely to do when under fire. Top that off with the fact torpedoes often take longer to reload than repair parties and flooding DoT from ship based sources is almost a nonfactor.

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Torp damage is balanced around an average estimated flooding damage, so in order to retain the desired balance, any damage removed from the average dot would need to be added to the average direct damage. So it's really a question of do you want to die immediately, or in the next minute.

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