Does the Grosser Kurfürst Make the Montana Obselete?

[Cruiser_Chicago]

 The new German T10 BB is huge, slow to turn, has a poor TDS, and is practically asking to be lit on fire in 4 different areas. But she also has an armor scheme that is strong enough to resist the Yamato, a 12 gun broadside like the Montana, and a frightening array of secondary guns. The Grosser Kurfürst is the brawler, the Yamato is the sniper, but what role does the Montana fit now? A mid-ranged AA barge?

 

What does the Montana bring to the table that the Grosser Kurfürst doesn't? Significantly stronger AA that is pointless against tier 10 CVs unless you heavily specialize into AA, marginally better dispersion or DPM depending on mods, slightly better concealment, and...yeah I got nothing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

If the Montana didn't look like a tier 9.5 BB before, she certainly looks like one now. After watching this video from Flamu, I think the USN BB line basically ends at tier 8-9. Why play the Montana when the Grosser Kurfürst or Yamato already demonstrate what a true T10 BB is supposed to be.

 

[FogInvader]

Yes yes it dose 

[Michael_200061]

If they make deck citadel a thing, when i play this game penning deck is like impossible (deck does not exsist due to wargaming "historical mechanics" ), and US guns is good at penning deck, soo...yeah

[IronWolfV]

Personally I don't even think Montana's armor is even correct for what the USN was planning.

[Nachoo31]

Montana is still a good ship? I wish more people would look at it overall instead comparing it to the other t10. AA? Delete's Cruisers? Dodges Torps?  

[4bRbyHSSzZ6pk]

If they make deck citadel a thing, when i play this game penning deck is like impossible (deck does not exsist due to wargaming "historical mechanics" ), and US guns is good at penning deck, soo...yeah

 

The reason you can't pen the deck of the enemy with plunging fire in this game because of the angle in which the shells travel on this game's reduced range, I believe? Can't be certain, but I think I read that somewhere before that for plunging fire to be possible, shells would need to be fired from further away than the ranges we have in-game. Meaning they likely wouldn't hit from so far away anyway, making it pointless.

[akh101]

Montana suffered a massive power creep after German BB came out so yea it kinda is unless WG fix it armor and such

[IronWolfV]

 

The reason you can't pen the deck of the enemy with plunging fire in this game because of the angle in which the shells travel on this game's reduced range, I believe? Can't be certain, but I think I read that somewhere before that for plunging fire to be possible, shells would need to be fired from further away than the ranges we have in-game. Meaning they likely wouldn't hit from so far away anyway, making it pointless.

 

It's not so much reduced as compressed. It's why Atlanta's shells go almost vertical past 11km, but under that suddenly have ok arcs.

[4bRbyHSSzZ6pk]

 

It's not so much reduced as compressed. It's why Atlanta's shells go almost vertical past 11km, but under that suddenly have ok arcs.

 

I just seem to recall a post in these forums with complicated maths on why plunging fire was impossible in this game because of the shell travel angles for the ranges we have, giving USN yet another disadvantage... It was either on here or EU, but I'm sure I saw it.

[Wo_9]

Not supposed to brawl in Montana.  Montana also is more accurate at range so why get close in the first place? if you brawl with Montana at less than 8 km, you will get citted and torped to death every single time.  her dispersion and AA are her theme's abuse it. 

[MeetTheBadger]

It certainly appears to.  Added to the fact that it has better armor (and, apparently, WarGaming may have gotten the Montana's armor entirely wrong) are the additional insults of way better secondaries (what is WG's problem with the 5-inch/38 cal.?) and an option of equipping 420mm guns that overmatch the Montana's weather deck, meaning that even a shell that should skip harmlessly across the Montana's deck will penetrate for a full 33% penetration, just like the Yamato's.

 

The reason you can't pen the deck of the enemy with plunging fire in this game because of the angle in which the shells travel on this game's reduced range, I believe? Can't be certain, but I think I read that somewhere before that for plunging fire to be possible, shells would need to be fired from further away than the ranges we have in-game. Meaning they likely wouldn't hit from so far away anyway, making it pointless.

 

Ah, but the other two tier 10 battleships can pen the Montana's deck.  They just have to skip a shell across it, and the overmatch mechanics do the rest.  Meaning that they don't need plunging fire to get deck penetrations on the Montana, they just have to fire shells horizontally over the deck.  Remember, overmatch = no bounce regardless of angle, so if their AP touches the Montana's weather deck, it's a penetration.

 

Montana is still a good ship? I wish more people would look at it overall instead comparing it to the other t10. AA? Delete's Cruisers? Dodges Torps?  

 

Let me just point out that the Montana is the only battleship at tier 8, 9, or ten that can have its top deck penetrated by 203mm HE.  Not even the Iowa has armor that bad.

 

So, there you go.  I didn't compare the Montana to the other tier 10s.  I compared it to tier 8s and it still came off worse.

[Fiero85]

Personally I don't even think Montana's armor is even correct for what the USN was planning.

 

You are correct. Go look up the Montana class battleship on wikipedia and you'll find some disturbingly glaring bits that are wrong in game compared to what the ship had on paper.

 

Every other paper ship in the game gets optimal performance, so why doesn't the Montana?

[Lert]

what role does the Montana fit now?

 

The jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none. If Yamato is the sniper and Kurfuerst the brawler, then Montana brawls better than Yamato does and snipes better than Kurfuerst does, with a frightening set of AA.

[amade]

 

It's not so much reduced as compressed. It's why Atlanta's shells go almost vertical past 11km, but under that suddenly have ok arcs.

 

It's not compressed, it's restricted.

 

[IronWolfV]

Not supposed to brawl in Montana.  Montana also is more accurate at range so why get close in the first place? if you brawl with Montana at less than 8 km, you will get citted and torped to death every single time.  her dispersion and AA are her theme's abuse it. 

 

Yeah, but it's that lack of penetration power which is a problem for the Montana.

[Wo_9]

 

Yeah, but it's that lack of penetration power which is a problem for the Montana.

 

for my playstyle, i'd rather be in a Montana. 

[ryuukei8569]

I would say not really. If Kurfurst's gun are anything like Fredrick der Große's, then Kurfurst has wildly inaccurate guns, so in terms of functional DPM, Montana beats out Kurfurst in spades until Kurfurst gets within secondary range, which at t10, doesn't happen all that often. I am on Freddy right now and I routinely have problems missing shots against broadside targets that Iowa North Carolina or other BB's would have easily hit. Freddy's shells do seem to have this magical ability to twist around a target even moreso than other BB guns.

[IronWolfV]

 

It's not compressed, it's restricted.

 

 

Really? Last I checked at 13.3km max range for Atlanta, she should not have the shell arc she does. I mean at 13.3, it's well above 60 degrees when in reality should be around a 30 degree angle.

[Lert]

If Kurfurst's gun are anything like Fredrick der Große's, then Kurfurst has wildly inaccurate guns

 

They are and she has, though the additional 4 barrels help counter the inaccuracy through volume of fire.

[YamatoA150]

Montana needs a slight buff to armor (she was performing on par with Yamato across all servers except EU with the adjustment to her speed and sigma, until the KM BB line came out and everyone jumped over to that one).

 

However, she does play the mid-range game well.  She is smaller than Kurfurst, more accurate than Kurfurst, more maneuverable than Kurfurst, and accelerates faster than Kurfurst.  She's great for kiting brawling Kurfursts or working her way around Yamatos, and she has solid defensive AA without the need to fully spec for AA, unlike Kurfurst (who needs the Manual AA skill if they hope to match the overall DPS of Montana's AA without).

 

Fortunately, most people don't know how to play Montana (still thinking she can stand up to a dedicated brawler like Kurfurst), and as a result Kurfurst is able to get into their faces and wreck them.

[Alexandrix]

Yea

Sucks extra hard for me too,because i grinded my way up to the monty,the baltimore,and the benson before i realized WG hates the USN.

Well,the usn dd's are generally ok,but  nothing special.

Now that i've given up on the usn tree,i see what real ships are like in the other tree's.

Not that other nations don' t have a turdboat or two here and there.....but going beyond t6 in usn cruisers or t8 in usn bb's is pointless.

Don't bother with usn cv's at all,total garbage.

[byronicasian]

 

Really? Last I checked at 13.3km max range for Atlanta, she should not have the shell arc she does. I mean at 13.3, it's well above 60 degrees when in reality should be around a 30 degree angle.

 

Shell perspective. Remember Tedster's Cleveland screenshots? Everyone thought the shells that were coming in at 24 degrees were coming in near vertical also. 

[IronWolfV]

 

Shell perspective. Remember Tedster's Cleveland screenshots? Everyone thought the shells that were coming in at 24 degrees were coming in near vertical also. 

 

And on that one I completely disagree with him. When you're watching your own shell literally from the shell cam and it dives almost straight down(which is the best way to view a shell), there is no way on God's green earth those shells are coming down at 24 degrees. Not a chance in HELL.

[Exciton8964]

It absolutely does.

GK has about the same firepower as Montana(a bit worse dispersion, but larger caliber benefiting from overmatching).

GK has way better protection than Montana. From the new armor viewer, Montana has a deck armor of 29mm. That is even worse than Moskva's 50mm. Basically means, Montana's protection is cruiser level in front of GK and Yamato.\

On top of all these, GK has Hydro acoustic search. Which makes it possible for you to lead a push into the cap even when there is a DD around.

 

The only advantage Montana has is AA， which is not very significant.

[byronicasian]

Iunno, the AoF explanation honestly makes the most sense as it would also account for the 16" SHS (and other shells) autobouncing at ranges where they would usually get deck pens per IRL pen tables (if ranges were compressed proportionally, than those shells would be beating the 60 degree autobounce feature but they obviously are not), destroyers would also be horridly outranged if ranges were compressed vs capped.