Smoke Versus Typhoon Effect

[scrag0416]

Had a discussion about the effect of smoke and a Typhoon with regards to target acquisition and firing. It would seem that smoke should impose a penalty on those inside as it does to those outside. The discussion to counter that would be cooperative targeting...ie someone outside of the smoke feeding targeting data to those inside (even though in the game it is the platform in the smoke able to target whatever in range minus any penalties or bonuses. So.....in a typhoon we can see stuff on the minimap but not fire on it because a 8K firing range penalty is imposed. Disregard the stupidity of fighting in a typhoon as in the game it is allowed for a moment it would seem that either the smoke is broke or the typhoon is. Frankly if you are in smoke it is a 2 way street and you are unable to sight to fire. I think the typhoon is more accurate in regards to effects overall and that smoke amounts to nothing more than General Chang's Bird of Prey Cloaking Device which is nonsense. If you are in smoke...and no one can see you...then it should follow that you can't see anyone else.

[klymar8]

I've been in smoke and unable to see and shoot at targets outside of the smoke unless they are spotted by someone else . So I fail to see your point .

[Mechanicum]

I've been in smoke and unable to see and shoot at targets outside of the smoke unless they are spotted by someone else . So I fail to see your point .

 

This is actually exactly his point.

 

Even with a buddy spotting for you, you should at the very least have a major accuracy penalty (since it's not YOUR range finders and optics that are tracking the target).

[Kitsunelegend]

Thats exactly how smoke works actually. The only for someone in smoke to fire and see enemies outside of said smoke, i for their teammates to spot the enemy and relay the positions. If you have no teammates near by to spot, you won't see anyone.

[Ajatcho]

Radar? FCS?

[Aduial]

 

This is actually exactly his point.

 

Even with a buddy spotting for you, you should at the very least have a major accuracy penalty (since it's not YOUR range finders and optics that are tracking the target).

 

OK.... then if someone's spotting me, with radar or just because they are close enough, none of his allies should be able to shoot at me accurately. 

[Teahee]

 

This is actually exactly his point.

 

Even with a buddy spotting for you, you should at the very least have a major accuracy penalty (since it's not YOUR range finders and optics that are tracking the target).

 

In reality yes. But this is a game, and for balancing purposes no, because DD's are already weak as they are. 

[supershutze]

 

In reality yes. But this is a game, and for balancing purposes no, because DD's are already weak as they are. 

 

Very very weak.

 

6-10% torpedo hit rate weak.

 

15k damage for 100 shell hits weak.

 

Absurdly low fire chance weak.

 

Dead in 3 hits weak.

[KyourakuShunsui]

I am all for changing the smoke mechanics to not allow you to fire outside of smoke if you also change it so your ship can only fire at ships you are spotting for yourself. There is essentially no difference in shooting at a target you yourself are not spotting in either case.

[Mechanicum]

OK.... then if someone's spotting me, with radar or just because they are close enough, none of his allies should be able to shoot at me accurately. 

 

I agree that it should work both ways, though I point out that if you have both the visual range and direct line of sight to the target, this would negate the penalty, since your own optics and range finders are just as capable if they know where to look (which is what concealment is REALLY about)

 

 

Very very weak.

6-10% torpedo hit rate weak.

15k damage for 100 shell hits weak.

Absurdly low fire chance weak.

Dead in 3 hits weak.

 

You seem to think that DDs were supposed to be able to stand in the battle line?  This is not the case.  DDs were scouts and ambush-predators, not line of battle ships.  Their key contributions are to screen the big ships.

[Aduial]

I agree that it should work both ways, though I point out that if you have both the visual range and direct line of sight to the target, this would negate the penalty, since your own optics and range finders are just as capable if they know where to look (which is what concealment is REALLY about)

 

Well knowing where to look is part of it, but there's also the fact that the horizon can conceal small ships. 

[Mechanicum]

Well knowing where to look is part of it, but there's also the fact that the horizon can conceal small ships. 

 

Horizon works both ways.  This is actually why BBs are so tall in the first place.

 

If you can see a BB's "fighting top", he can see you!

[mohawkdriver]

 

Rush the smoke and kill the DD.  Bow on, he has a harder time torping you and if he fires his guns he gets lit up, making it easier for you to kill him.

 

Problem solved.

[Mechanicum]

Rush the smoke and kill the DD.  Bow on, he has a harder time torping you and if he fires his guns he gets lit up, making it easier for you to kill him.

 

Problem solved.

 

Actually, he DOESN'T get lit up when he shoots.  That's part of the problem...

 

[supershutze]

You seem to think that DDs were supposed to be able to stand in the battle line?  This is not the case.  DDs were scouts and ambush-predators, not line of battle ships.  Their key contributions are to screen the big ships.

 

Screen big ships against what? Other DD's? But according to you, they're not supposed to be dangerous.

Cruisers? But they're BB's main prey.

Carriers? DD's have crap AAA.

 

DD's aren't screen ships. Not in this game: There's nothing to screen against, especially considering that BB's seem more than capable of acting as their own screens.

[Mechanicum]

Screen big ships against what? Other DD's? But according to you, they're not supposed to be dangerous.

 

I never said DDs weren't dangerous, I said they weren't designed to fight in the battle line. Again, DDs are ambush predators. They were never intended to trade blows with the bigger ships, but they can do a lot of damage very quickly if allowed to.

 

So yes, screening against enemy DDs is a very important part of what a DD can do.  Nothing ruins an IJN DD's day like seeing a USN or Russian DD bearing down on him with guns blazing. Even tier 10 DDs like the "Skill-akaze" run away from Bensons and Fletchers.

 

Cruisers? But they're BB's main prey.

 

DDs should not be fighting cruisers anyways except to harass.

 

Carriers? DD's have crap AAA.

 

It's not just the AA that matters here.

First, DDs can report the positions of hostile aircraft.  This is absolutely vital to both an air superiority CV and to AA cruisers like the Cleveland or Atlanta.

Second, DDs are the principal hunters of CVs, due to their speed and torpedoes.

 

DD's aren't screen ships. Not in this game: There's nothing to screen against, especially considering that BB's seem more than capable of acting as their own screens.

 

I think I've shown you to be in error here.

 

As for BBs "screening themselves", I have to ask what you're smoking.  BBs have a difficult enough time fending off a single DD at close range, let alone 2 or 3.