Should I only fire AP at destoyers as a battleship?

[Comrad_Pravda]

Scenario 1) Playing the german tier 6 battleship: Bayern. Going up against a Hatsuharu, the Japanese tier 7 destroyer. I shoot the Hatsuharu with AP (Armor Piercing) Ammo. 3 direct hits. 3270 damage (from the 3 AP shots from the main battery). 1090 damage per AP hit. The Bayern clearly states that the AP ammo is supposed to do 10900 damage per AP shot (understanding that is, of course subject to modifiers which I will discuss in a moment.) 

 

 

 

Scenario 2) Playing the german tier 6 battleship: Bayern. Going up against another Hatsuharu, the Japanese tier 7 destroyer. I shoot the Hatsuharu with HE (High Explosive) Ammo. 6 Direct hits. 4390 damage (from the 6 hits from the HE from the main battery). About 732 damage per HE hit. That is pretty average for an HE shot against a DD in my Bayern. The Bayern clearly states that the HE ammo is supposed to do 4500 damage per HE shot. (Of course this is subject to all kinds of modifiers too.)

 

 

Scenario 3) Playing the german tier 6 battleship: Bayern. Go up against an Aoba, the Japanese teir 6 cruiser. I shoot the Aoba with HE Ammo. 5 Direct hits. 5559 damage (from the 5 hits from the HE from the main battery). About 1112 damage per HE hit.

 

 

 

Now... I understand what is happening in "Scenario 1" with the AP. The AP is "overpenetrating" because the Hatsuharu's armor is only 16 mm thick at the thickest. Overpenetration with AP causes only 10% listed damage. The listed damage is 10900. 10% of that is 1090 damage per shot. 3 hits, so 1090 x 3 = 3270, which is exactly how much I did. Fine. Good. We understand that. A battleship will nearly always overpen against a destroyer with AP, so, effectively, DDs have 90% damage reduction vs BBs firing AP just... because... reasons. Heh! The take main point here is that, a BB firing AP at a DD is going to do around 1000 damage per shot hit pretty much no matter what else happens.

 

What EXACTLY is going on with the HE though. I don't understand the exact mechanics. Can someone explain this to me? The Bayern is listed as 4500 damage per HE shot. I hit 6 times in "Scenario 2." Now to my understanding, HE can't overpen against the Hatsuharu because HE just explodes on contact. On top of that, the HE damage shouldn't be reduced by very much because, as I understand it, it is the explosive force of the blast that causes the damage from an HE round. That WOULD be reduced by how thick the armor is, at least that is how it works in world of tanks, I think, but the Hatsuharu shouldn't be reducing my 4500 HE damage down to 732 damage with 16 mm of armor right? That is about an 84% damage reduction to my HE. Why does he get that much damage reduction? What causes that? I see no logical reason for that.

 

 

Now let's compare "Scenario 2" to my HE shots against the Aoba in "Scenario 3." Consider that this Aoba's armor is thicker than the Hatsuharu's, yet my HE rounds that I happned to fire at the Aoba did 5559 damage from 5 hits. That is about 1112 damage per hit. The Aoba has around 75% damage reduction vs base listed HE damage. Where as the Hatsuharu had about 84%. That is actually MORE damage against the Aoba, which has thicker armor than the Hatsuharu, which took less damage per HE hit despite having thinner armor. This makes no sense. Even if the HE shots could overpen, and they did every time vs both the Aoba, and the Hatsuharu, logically, the Hatsuharu would still take more damage from the HE than the Aoba because the Hatsuharu had less armor thickness to reduce the force of the blast right?

 

 

So it seems like Destroyers, effectively, simply have unlisted, very high percentage damage reductions vs battleships, but not vs cruisers. Does this mean my Yamato would recieve less damage if its armor were only 10 mm thick when fighting other BBs? If so, why don't we just make battleships with really thin armor? They would be cheaper, and quicker that way.

 

My point here is that if you are a Battleship, and you shoot at a DD, if your HE gets 85% damage reduction applied to it, and your AP gets 90% damage reduction applied to it, but your AP shots do around 1090 damage after damage reduction is applied, and your HE shots do 732 damage per hit after damage reduction... firing AP at a DD as a BB causes about 49% more damage than firing HE at the destroyer. Therefore, you should always fire AP at a destroyer even though you will always overpen? Is that correct? That seems absurd to me, but, as far as I can tell, it seems like the numbers support this concept. I mean, yes HE knocks out engines and rudders and things, but not really because a lot of DDs have the captain skill, "Last stand" so even when you cripple them, they don't really get crippled that badly. Sure the HE shots can cause fire, but the fire from a BB against a DD causes significantly less fire damage per tick than the same BB causing fire against another BB. It seems like the fire ticks for more or less damage based on a percentage of the burning ship's maximum health, so, because the DD's have significantly lower max HP, even fire damage vs a DD is reduced.

 

So you should just always fire AP, at destroyers as a BB?

 

 

[Captain_Dorja]

Disclaimer - I didn't read your thread.

 

Basically, short answer. I fire what I have loaded, which is almost always AP. If I can be certain I will fire twice in a row at a DD, I fire what I have in the barrels and reload HE. I don't care if my HE does less damage than good overpens. I want the module damage from HE.

[SergeantHop]

If the destroyer is turning away and you hit it in the stern, or in a way that it has some angle, but will still pen, you can still get 33s. I rarely load HE to deal with destroyers in my battleships, because it often results in me having a suboptimal ammo loaded after the engagement ends, which could cost me a lot of damage output in some situations. HE isn't consistent enough when dealing with battleship calibers to warrant the change, either, as you've pointed out in the OP above.

[MeKanism]

I load AP for main battery. HE is for the secondaries

[SgtBeltfed]

If I know I'm going to engage at DD, I'll swap. In any other instance, I just fire AP till the DD's dead or I've found something more interesting to shoot at.

[vonKaiser]

Alright, I tried to read through it, and I commend you on making a coherent thought out argument.  All I can do is offer you the best I can think of given my engagements with DD's over the course of my games.

 

First and foremost, as a BB you have AP loaded.  You come across the random stalking Destroyer.  Side on, 90 degree penetration angle, you too high of a velocity for the ammunition to explode inside their ship.  It hits one side, given the lack of armor and the small radius it enters one side, exits the other without an explosion and results in a 10% damage overpen. 

 

Now, if that same destroyer is 0 degrees, bow on to you and you send that same shell through his bow, all the extra armor it's passing through all the way to the stern is enough to set off the fuse and make that 10% overpen shot turn into a 33% penetrating hit.  get 2 or 3 of these in one salvo and that DD is going to be hurting.  You'll never get a full damage roll as if you hit the citadel because DD's do not have them.  You're only options against a DD is a miss, a 10% overpen, or a 33% damage shot, given their lack of HP a damaging shot is not a wholly insignificant roll of the RNG. 

 

Now, with HE loaded, you're giving up penetration for explosive damage.  I can't say for certain the exact numbers but HE has extremely poor penetration values.  If you aim at the lower hull or the water line where even DD armor is more prevalent you're not going to have a very decent damage roll.  But if you aim for the deck line or the super structure, you'll have a better time of it. 

 

So, what does this mean?  If you have AP loaded, try to hold the shot for a bow or stern on angle, if you can't hold the shot, by all means fire the AP but have HE loaded for the next salvo.  After all if you have a Battleship with 8 or more guns loaded 10% for each of your shots will add up in the long run.  All in all you want the HE, one or two salvos may not mean much, but say you take out his engine, he repairs, cruiser salvo takes out the next, he's now a sitting duck because you made him use his repair tool. 

[Stratego89]

1. HE knocks out the pesky torpedoes that you're about to eat if the destroyer you're looking at gets close. So no, don't "always" use AP. It depends on the situation.

 

2. HE does not explode on contact. It has penetration just like AP shells- AP shells are just designed for it and explode after more resistance. They are made to explode inside heavily armored ships. With the hatsuharu it passes right through and does overpen (10%) damage. HE can overpen just the same- though it's a lot harder. I'm not sure exactly what is going on to give you the exact HE damage numbers you're getting because the only modifier values I have ever seen are for AP.

 

HE is more than just damage. That's what makes it good. The disabling of engines, rudders, torpedoes, and even secondaries/AA, and the lighting of fires. All of them can be lifesavers and game changers. It's even more effective to use HE if you have enough time to land 2-3 salvos, as they might pop their repair to get away, get hit by your second strike, then be dead in the water or unable to fight back- dead for sure. The best you can really hope for with AP is to disable a turret that wouldn't do the DD much good anyways or the engine, but VERY rarely.

[Sir_Godz]

I stick with AP for several reason's. It will always do a minimum damage if the shells hit. It is the shell type of choice for everything else if the DD disappears and is already loaded 99.999% of the time, DD will be dead only one salvo quicker with HE if I'm lucky to get the hits and it might do nothing if I get modules instead.

 

Only time I load HE for DDs is if it's the last ship when I may only get one or two shots and those will decide the game due to the greater potential of HE. The smarter gamble in that case is going for the win otherwise the smarter gamble is to stick with AP and guarantee some damage.

 

Think of it like this. If dying allows me to reset the cap which prevents the reds from winning in the next moment it's the right move. If living is the only way to not lose (like running out the clock) then that's the right move.

 

We will all lose a a giant amount of game to poor gambles by players. Knowing what is being gambled and what for really changes the win loss column.

[WKMitchell]

I think everybody explained HE vs AP on a DD pretty well I did want to add though the reason you see the lower damage with HE on a DD is do to a built damage reduction percentage that is related to saturation of hull sections.  Basically DD's were too squishy so I think they made shells do 85%(not sure the exact percentage) normal damage but this seems to effect HE only as it is part of the hull section saturation.

 

  I maybe completely wrong about this but I remember them tweaking DD's a while back with a some sort of damage reduction.  If I am could somebody please explain as I would like to know myself, and so I am not giving bad advice.

[TenguBlade]

HE vs. AP on a DD is irrelevant.  What is more relevant is whether you understand saturation mechanics OP.  HE shells do penetrate armor to some extent, hence why HE hits normally count as normal penetrations in the detailed ribbons.  However, each section of a ship does not necessarily have enough HP to absorb the full penetration damage of the round.

[AmurTiger]

I feel a little bit sad that some responders haven't read though what you said OP as it's a pretty good breakdown that raises a pretty good question, though the points about starting fires and disabling other mods are important ones. One of the most reliable ways I find to kill a DD in a BB is to get that 2nd fire started after they've used their damage control, the damage over time of a fire pretty comfortably outstrips any single-shot damage. This is especially true since DDs can't afford to wait out a rudder/engine repair cooldown.

 

Your more fundamental question about damage delivery is an interesting one none the less and based on your experience it could be there's some hidden modifiers keeping destroyers from taking the full brunt of HE and in German battleships this is liable to put AP in competitive standing in terms of overall damage. It is important to note that it's a German battleship though which has a very high ratio between AP and HE damage, the Bayern has 2.42:1 a Kongo's 14" guns have 1.78:1 and as a general trend you see this ratio grow larger with larger caliber guns.

 

Specifically for the Bayern you may be right in favoring AP ( regardless of other targets ) so long as the DD is operating outside of your secondary range, when within secondary range the benefit of getting that 2nd fire in is really important I feel in sealing the deal against a DD.

[_Rumple_]

Disclaimer - I didn't read your thread.

 

Basically, short answer. I fire what I have loaded, which is almost always AP. If I can be certain I will fire twice in a row at a DD, I fire what I have in the barrels and reload HE. I don't care if my HE does less damage than good overpens. I want the module damage from HE.

That pretty much covers it. Nothing discourages a DD more than module dmg. Engines, rudder, fires etc will greatly reduce the ardor of any aggressive DD driver.

[Sub_Octavian]

Hi!

The short answer (IMO) - I mostly fire only AP when shooting at DDs from BBs, as you never know what kind of tagret will pop up, and large caliber AP do more damage in most cases. If I know that I'm 1vs1 with DD, I will for sure load HE. Not only it does some damage, but it also cripples the enemy vastly (rudder, engine, torps, etc).

As for mechanics:

Armor does not absorb HE damage. HE shells can penetrate or not penetrate armor (HE penetration does not count angles, range, etc - only armor thickness, and its value is 1/6 of caliber - 1/4 for German BBs).

If HE does not penetrate, it can do only splash damage to modules and/or cause fire.

 

If it does penetrate, it damages the exact part of the ship which was behind the impact point (so it does not go through ship as AP does).

Maximum value for HE in port is citadel hit (yes, you can hit a citadel with HE in some cases, for example, shooting some cruisers and carriers with lagre caliber HE).

 

But as you know, DDs do not have citadel. They have only "central" part (1/3 value) and bow/aft/superstructure/casemate (not on all DDs)/hull (which overlaps these parts) (1/6 value).

 

So, if a HE shell with 3000 max damage has hit a DD part (not a module by the way - in this case the module - e.g. turret - will take all direct damage) it can do:

 

1. 1000 damage to central part (1/3 of 1000);

2. 1000 damage to aft/bow/superstructure (which comes from 1/6 of the part hit and 1/6 from overlapping hull part);

3. 500 damage to aft/bow/superstructure (if it has no HP remaining, it will be only 1/6 to hull);

4. Any uneven numbers, depending on ship parts condition, which normally are not even, as we take damage from different sources in battle;

5. Theoretically 0 damage to aft/bow/superstructure (if both part hit AND hull have no HP remaining, but at this point the ship is probably one-shot for any other hit);

 

I hope that helps at least a bit! Have a nice day! 

[TitiuBlack]

(HE penetration does not count angles, range, etc - only armor thickness, and its value is 1/6 of caliber - 1/4 for German BBs).

 

Nice to know about it... We talking about HE... AP still same rule right?

[Sub_Octavian]

Nice to know about it... We talking about HE... AP still same rule right?

AP have more complex penetration values depending on ballistics. I was referring only to HE.

[TitiuBlack]

AP have same rule for all thats what i mean... For sure are more complex.  Tks for ask Sub. U great... Keep whatu doing and u just starting

 

[Aduial]

I think everybody explained HE vs AP on a DD pretty well I did want to add though the reason you see the lower damage with HE on a DD is do to a built damage reduction percentage that is related to saturation of hull sections.  Basically DD's were too squishy so I think they made shells do 85%(not sure the exact percentage) normal damage but this seems to effect HE only as it is part of the hull section saturation.

 

  I maybe completely wrong about this but I remember them tweaking DD's a while back with a some sort of damage reduction.  If I am could somebody please explain as I would like to know myself, and so I am not giving bad advice.

Nope that's not true. HE always does 33% damage unless the area which it hits has been saturated by damage. Proof: My IJN cruisers guns very often deal the damage they're supposed to do against destroyers, or 1089 (?) damage. 

[B4lduR_28]

I generally prefer AP from BB vs DD because the overpens do reliable 10% dmg and if I get lucky/ aim right i will get a few 33% penetrations (max dmg on dd from AP since they don't have citadels)

 

especially against RU DD I seem to do way better that way (more armor on em -> less overpens)

[Herr_Reitz]

AP have more complex penetration values depending on ballistics. I was referring only to HE.

 

I should like to understand the mechanics of destroyer fire of HE that penetrates but returns only 14% to 17% of the maximum potential HP damage. What determines the percentage of damage given for any penetrating hit? tia

[Neltak]

HE is susceptible to damage saturation and that is potentially what you are seeing.

 

I've felt for quite a while now that AP is a more reliable damage source vs destroyers, especially in battleships with lots of guns. All you have to do is maximize your chances at the regular penetrating hits for the 33% and destroyers will regret showing themselves near you. 

[Comrad_Pravda]

...Armor does not absorb HE damage. HE shells can penetrate or not penetrate armor (HE penetration does not count angles, range, etc - only armor thickness, and its value is 1/6 of caliber - 1/4 for German BBs). ...

 

... But as you know, DDs do not have citadel. They have only "central" part (1/3 value) and bow/aft/superstructure/casemate (not on all DDs)/hull (which overlaps these parts) (1/6 value).

 

So, if a HE shell with 3000 max damage has hit a DD part (not a module by the way - in this case the module - e.g. turret - will take all direct damage) it can do:

 

1. 1000 damage to central part (1/3 of 1000);

2. 1000 damage to aft/bow/superstructure (which comes from 1/6 of the part hit and 1/6 from overlapping hull part);

3. 500 damage to aft/bow/superstructure (if it has no HP remaining, it will be only 1/6 to hull);

4. Any uneven numbers, depending on ship parts condition, which normally are not even, as we take damage from different sources in battle;

5. Theoretically 0 damage to aft/bow/superstructure (if both part hit AND hull have no HP remaining, but at this point the ship is probably one-shot for any other hit);

 

I hope that helps at least a bit! Have a nice day! 

 

Hmm. The Bayern is listed as 4500 HE damage base. I was doing around 732 damage per shot. Given your explanation, 4500 divided by 6 is 750. Therefore, I must have been getting the 1/6 damage shots you mentioned pretty much every time, so for a BB shooting HE at a DD, the "1/6 damage result" must be quite a frequent occurence since I very regularly see that 750~ish number when shooting DDs. Alright, well I learned something. Thank you!

 

Then, can you please explain the exact mechanics of what happened to result in my numbers against the Aoba? Why would the Aoba, a cruiser, a tougher ship, take MORE damage (on average per hit) from the same BB's HE rounds than a DD? Since you mentioned that thicker armor is not responsible for HE damage being reduced, I am interested to know what is going on there. Again, in the picture, it is 5 HE hits from a Bayern vs an Aoba that resut in 5559 damage. What causes that to happen?

 

I read this

 

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration#High-Explosive

 

but it doesn't really explain what happened in my case, as far as I can see.

 

 

[Wowzery]

Going against a DD, I use almost all HE.  For me I find it does more damage, and as someone else noted it can damage engines, do fire, take out the torps.  Overall I just feel like I'm doing more damage in HE over AP against DDs.  Against CAs is almost always AP and BBs depends on what ship I'm driving and the target, how its angling and so forth.

[Edgecase]

As for mechanics:

 

Armor does not absorb HE damage. HE shells can penetrate or not penetrate armor (HE penetration does not count angles, range, etc - only armor thickness, and its value is 1/6 of caliber - 1/4 for German BBs).

If HE does not penetrate, it can do only splash damage to modules and/or cause fire.

 

If it does penetrate, it damages the exact part of the ship which was behind the impact point (so it does not go through ship as AP does).

 

Maximum value for HE in port is citadel hit (yes, you can hit a citadel with HE in some cases, for example, shooting some cruisers and carriers with lagre caliber HE).

 

But as you know, DDs do not have citadel. They have only "central" part (1/3 value) and bow/aft/superstructure/casemate (not on all DDs)/hull (which overlaps these parts) (1/6 value).

 

So, if a HE shell with 3000 max damage has hit a DD part (not a module by the way - in this case the module - e.g. turret - will take all direct damage) it can do:

 

1. 1000 damage to central part (1/3 of 1000);

2. 1000 damage to aft/bow/superstructure (which comes from 1/6 of the part hit and 1/6 from overlapping hull part);

3. 500 damage to aft/bow/superstructure (if it has no HP remaining, it will be only 1/6 to hull);

4. Any uneven numbers, depending on ship parts condition, which normally are not even, as we take damage from different sources in battle;

5. Theoretically 0 damage to aft/bow/superstructure (if both part hit AND hull have no HP remaining, but at this point the ship is probably one-shot for any other hit);

 

I hope that helps at least a bit! Have a nice day! 

 

Thank you for confirming this mechanic. It is very informative!

 

I have heard that torpedoes also count as very large (533mm) HE shells for damage mechanic purposes. Is that true?

[Umikami]

Now, if that same destroyer is 0 degrees, bow on to you and you send that same shell through his bow, all the extra armor it's passing through all the way to the stern is enough to set off the fuse and make that 10% overpen shot turn into a 33% penetrating hit.  get 2 or 3 of these in one salvo and that DD is going to be hurting.

 

Correction, if you get ONE of those, the DD is going to be hurting (take this from a DD player). With the narrow angle of fire you have on a DD head on, getting MORE than one will be very lucky, but the author is absolutely right that this is a more effective tactic than either reloading HE (which can take an eternity) or shooting AP through the side of a DD. No sensible DD Captain (one that is NOT suicidal) is going to hang around for THAT type of punishment.

[Tedster_]

in my current experience, I see zero reason to fire BB caliber HE at DD's.  AP overpens do more damage than HE pens to saturated sections, and HE module damage can usually be repaired with a simple press of the R key, which DD's can get the cooldown to nearly the same speed as a BB reload.