Confused on Scharnhorst's 11 inch gun performance

[Skyfaller]

I completely understand this caliber is small for a battleship however I'm having a hard time understanding how it manages to perform significantly worse than 5 inch, 6 inch and 8 inch guns per salvo fired (not DPS).

 

For example, in the Mogami with the 155mm guns a single turret can do anywhere between 500 and 1000 damage to a ship's upper superstructure. An AP round from the 155 Mogami fired under 10km at a cruiser (any cruiser) has a very good chance of penetrating and either citadel hit it or causing good damage. The 8 inch AP performs even better.

 

But Scharnhorst's AP at 10km ..heck even 4km range on a cruiser bounces off half the time. HE rounds of Scharnhorst also bounce or hit for like 300 to 600 damage avg on the upper superstructure.

 

Its almost as if Scharnhorst is firing a 6 inch shell with poor AP and HE characteristics rather than an 11 inch shell.

[TenguBlade]

I don't know what you're on, but Scharnhorst's AP has very little issue penetrating cruiser belts even when angled.  Heck even against angled battleships it's easier to find ways to pen them with AP (not really worth it compared to your HE damage output, but that's neither here nor there) than find out how to bounce.

[Morpheous]

Hmmmm may be you have a deficient Scharnhorst.  Send in a ticket and tell them your 11 inch guns can't pen anything and you want a new Scharny.

[Special_Kay]

This is how Dunkerque feels sometimes, but when I pay close attention it's because dispersion is resulting in poorer hitrates than if I were using 15, 18 or 20cm artillery.

[Aduial]

An AP round from the 155 Mogami fired under 10km at a cruiser (any cruiser) has a very good chance of penetrating and either citadel hit it or causing good damage

 

Not true. I have yet to citadel anything from further than 7km with those guns, except the Atlanta (but Atlanta is Atlanta). Also, they don't pen very well either, and they only cruisers i can do decent damage with AP in 155 Mogami is another Mogami or another IJN cruiser (or an Atlanta). 

[Special_Kay]

I don't know what you're on, but Scharnhorst's AP has very little issue penetrating cruiser belts even when angled.  Heck even against angled battleships it's easier to find ways to pen them with AP (not really worth it compared to your HE damage output, but that's neither here nor there) than find out how to bounce.

 

That could be part of it; 11" (Scharnhorst) and 13" (Dunkerque) AP against cruisers is going to see more over-penetrating hits than with 8" AP.

[blueheadfan]

I would say you need more then 10 battles as your sample size in that ship atm.  Being in a division with the Scharny and watching 160k/180k damage games being done has shamed me into getting one tonight.

[Czevak]

Dunkerque AP feels broken tbh.. 

[Nuk_]

Dunkerque AP feels broken tbh.. 

 

Broken as in too much pen or not enough?

[Axonn]

The Scharnhorst Armada video should tell u how she plays as and how she works out compare to many other BB's.

[Special_Kay]

Broken as in too much pen or not enough?

 

I couldn't figure out which one either. It feels soft to me, but then I look at the overall performance compared to the other T6s and people seem to be putting up more damage in Dunkerque than they are with her tier-mates.

[paradat]

I completely understand this caliber is small for a battleship however I'm having a hard time understanding how it manages to perform significantly worse than 5 inch, 6 inch and 8 inch guns per salvo fired (not DPS).

 

For example, in the Mogami with the 155mm guns a single turret can do anywhere between 500 and 1000 damage to a ship's upper superstructure. An AP round from the 155 Mogami fired under 10km at a cruiser (any cruiser) has a very good chance of penetrating and either citadel hit it or causing good damage. The 8 inch AP performs even better.

 

But Scharnhorst's AP at 10km ..heck even 4km range on a cruiser bounces off half the time. HE rounds of Scharnhorst also bounce or hit for like 300 to 600 damage avg on the upper superstructure.

 

Its almost as if Scharnhorst is firing a 6 inch shell with poor AP and HE characteristics rather than an 11 inch shell.

 

Just for fun I looked up your damage

Mogami average damage 46,844

Sharnhorst average damage 50,730

So.....

[Czevak]

 

Broken as in too much pen or not enough?

 

Just not enough damage expected of such a gun caliber and speed. ;/

[Nuk_]

 

Just not enough damage expected of such a gun caliber and speed. ;/

 

Odd, because I feel her penetration and damage is quite good considering the caliber of her guns.

[Skyfaller]

 

That could be part of it; 11" (Scharnhorst) and 13" (Dunkerque) AP against cruisers is going to see more over-penetrating hits than with 8" AP.

 

Its not over penetrating. Its bouncing or not penetrating. Against cruiser armor. The ribbons shown upon gun impact say so. So, unless those ribbons are screwy the 11 inchers seem wonky.

[Czevak]

 

Odd, because I feel her penetration and damage is quite good considering the caliber of her guns.

 

If the gun characteristics were actually reflected in game, it would be a beast. But of course, can't have the Scharnhorst do much damage so they nerfed the damage.

 

Compare Moskva guns to Scharnhorst. Less reload, more damage. Looking at everything, Scharnhorst guns should more or less be on par with Moskva. Buuuuut of course, can't have that.

And before you say "Tier 10 vs Tier 7.. you on drugs" it's a matter of realistic reflection.

 

 

Really, you can only get 4k+ damage a salvo IF broadside with Scharnhorst AP.. that's pretty pathetic looking at it's guns. So underpowered it's not even funny, I'd rather have AP spammers than HE spammers.

[Crovas]

I completely understand this caliber is small for a battleship however I'm having a hard time understanding how it manages to perform significantly worse than 5 inch, 6 inch and 8 inch guns per salvo fired (not DPS).

 

For example, in the Mogami with the 155mm guns a single turret can do anywhere between 500 and 1000 damage to a ship's upper superstructure. An AP round from the 155 Mogami fired under 10km at a cruiser (any cruiser) has a very good chance of penetrating and either citadel hit it or causing good damage. The 8 inch AP performs even better.

 

But Scharnhorst's AP at 10km ..heck even 4km range on a cruiser bounces off half the time. HE rounds of Scharnhorst also bounce or hit for like 300 to 600 damage avg on the upper superstructure.

 

Its almost as if Scharnhorst is firing a 6 inch shell with poor AP and HE characteristics rather than an 11 inch shell.

 

Maybe run a couple games to practice taking shots on varying ships and angles they are holding. That information would help you better understand how to get pens with these guns.

Sometimes a ship you may think you can get a lot of damage on the hull you would get more damage aiming for the superstructure or the aft hull.

Wouldn't be surprised to hear more players typically aim for the upper front and center of a ships hull when using AP.

 

Angled cruisers just go HE and keep firing, not worth waiting for that broadside.

 

 

Not true. I have yet to citadel anything from further than 7km with those guns, except the Atlanta (but Atlanta is Atlanta). Also, they don't pen very well either, and they only cruisers i can do decent damage with AP in 155 Mogami is another Mogami or another IJN cruiser (or an Atlanta). 

 

Although averaging out on damage and still figuring out how to best play the ship,

I've had no trouble getting citadels and pens on targets around 15km.

[Skyfaller]

err flat broadside shots means i need to 'learn' how to get pens? cmon now.

[Special_Kay]

Its not over penetrating. Its bouncing or not penetrating. Against cruiser armor. The ribbons shown upon gun impact say so. So, unless those ribbons are screwy the 11 inchers seem wonky.

 

Those ribbons are screwy, but that probably won't make you confuse overpens and ricochets. When you get a non-damaging hit that shows as a "penetration" you'll probably see it for the ricochet it was.

[Skyfaller]

Heck just now... 2km range, atago flat broadside to me.. AP to its low midsection... bounce. That would've been a citadel if I had been in a 5inch gun or 6inch gun or even a 16 inch gun ship. Something is really, really messed up.

 

[Special_Kay]

Heck just now... 2km range, atago flat broadside to me.. AP to its low midsection... bounce. That would've been a citadel if I had been in a 5inch gun or 6inch gun or even a 16 inch gun ship. Something is really, really messed up.

 

If you have a replay you should submit that with a bug report ticket and ask them to have a look at whether something is wrong.

[TenguBlade]

Just not enough damage expected of such a gun caliber and speed. ;/

WG sets nothing by BB shell velocity when it comes to determining AP alpha.  They tried with Scharnhorst and the value came out to 9300 (8300? I don't remember the first digit) and it was OP during testing.

 

But at the same time bull[edited] like the Zao happens where it uses the exact same shells as Ibuki below her and gets +100 HE and +700 AP damage (and +3% fire chance because [edited] everything) for a muzzle velocity increase of 80m/s.  Or where Moskva has a weaker AP shell than Hindenburg despite having a muzzle velocity 60m/s higher and a shell 50% heavier.

[Czevak]

WG sets nothing by BB shell velocity when it comes to AP alpha.  But at the same time bull[edited] like the Zao happens where it uses the exact same shells as Ibuki below her and gets +100 HE and +700 AP damage for a muzzle velocity increase of 80m/s.

 

#logic

[TenguBlade]

OP, here's the most extreme example of why you are alone in saying Scharnhorst's AP sucks.

It's at close range, yes, but that's still an Iowa.

[Aduial]

Heck just now... 2km range, atago flat broadside to me.. AP to its low midsection... bounce. That would've been a citadel if I had been in a 5inch gun or 6inch gun or even a 16 inch gun ship. Something is really, really messed up.

 

 

I'm guessing that engagement didn't go well for you. *gets hit by 8 torps in the face*