23 [RNF] OVERDRIVEZhi Members 109 posts 12,870 battles Report post #1 Posted August 23, 2016 Have anyone noticed how powerful the German BB anti air is? I've just played a few matches in my Independence, when I try to manual torp a Bayern it immediately wiped off my whole squadron with only one of my torp goes off and there's no other ships around him. I tried again later with my DB squad, same result. Basically a T6 CV cant do anything against a T6 German BB... On stats it looks pretty similar to USN BBs, but usually I get at least three planes left after a drop to a New Maxico, which I think its acceptable because USN BBs are known for their reinforced AA. Is that a bug or work as intended? Isn't that a bit too much? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1,849 [AXANR] poeticmotion Members 3,650 posts 23,502 battles Report post #2 Posted August 23, 2016 (edited) Might be bad RNG. From the opposite side, I've noticed my Konig and Bayern both struggle with shooting down planes more than my New York and New Mexico did. It might be interesting to look at Warships.Today numbers for the ships and see how they compare to each other with plane kills instread of extrapolating from small sample size. Edit: Bayern shoots down 1.6 planes per match, New Mexi shoots down 1.0. Now, limited sample size still as German BBs been out for only a week, but the data available backs you up that Bayerns may be tougher for CVs to crack than other BBs. There could be other factors; almost all German BBs are running BFT/AFT for their secondaries and that buffs AA as well, for example. Edited August 23, 2016 by poeticmotion Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
39,439 [HINON] Lert Alpha Tester 27,812 posts 26,841 battles Report post #3 Posted August 23, 2016 German AA DPS is concentrated in their long range batteries, USN AA more on medium range. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
153 Jmthebigman Members 853 posts Report post #4 Posted August 23, 2016 Might be bad RNG. From the opposite side, I've noticed my Konig and Bayern both struggle with shooting down planes more than my New York and New Mexico did. It might be interesting to look at Warships.Today numbers for the ships and see how they compare to each other with plane kills instread of extrapolating from small sample size. Edit: Bayern shoots down 1.6 planes per match, New Mexi shoots down 1.0. Now, limited sample size still as German BBs been out for only a week, but the data available backs you up that Bayerns may be tougher for CVs to crack than other BBs. There could be other factors; almost all German BBs are running BFT/AFT for their secondaries and that buffs AA as well, for example. Dont forget now with more BBs we see more cv players. So thats also in favor of the german BB's. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
46 B4lduR_28 Members 267 posts 4,277 battles Report post #5 Posted August 23, 2016 Could be that he had an expierienced captain from the tirpitz with AFT BFT Manual AA and AA mod, that would make it's AA very powerful That plus bad RNG for you could have caused this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
23 [RNF] OVERDRIVEZhi Members 109 posts 12,870 battles Report post #6 Posted August 23, 2016 (edited) Might be bad RNG. From the opposite side, I've noticed my Konig and Bayern both struggle with shooting down planes more than my New York and New Mexico did. It might be interesting to look at Warships.Today numbers for the ships and see how they compare to each other with plane kills instread of extrapolating from small sample size. Edit: Bayern shoots down 1.6 planes per match, New Mexi shoots down 1.0. Now, limited sample size still as German BBs been out for only a week, but the data available backs you up that Bayerns may be tougher for CVs to crack than other BBs. There could be other factors; almost all German BBs are running BFT/AFT for their secondaries and that buffs AA as well, for example. Thanks for the reply. Thats interesting, personally I haven't played German BBs but I do play CV occasionally. Maybe I'll try more to test this out. But German BB is now having better armor, better reload time, better or at least equal AA to USN, better maneuverability than both IJN and USN counterparts at mid tier (T4 - T7). It seems to me their only downside is terrible AP and HE, which is compensated by having much faster reload. Right now I have no idea how to counter a German BB really. Edit: Also forgot to mention that German BB got access to 380mm at T6, which have same reload time as Warspite but again, much better armor protection and much faster turret traverse. It easily out guns any other T6 battleships and can even compete at T7... I really hope WG will re consider this. This ship is a disaster at T6. Edited August 23, 2016 by OVERDRIVEZhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1,605 [HINON] Nuk_ Beta Testers 3,931 posts 8,150 battles Report post #7 Posted August 23, 2016 (edited) Right now I have no idea how to counter a German BB really. The main counter is destroyers. Most of the German BBs have a slow rudder shift and large turning circle due to their long, slim hulls. Also, their torpedo belts themselves are quite weak, meaning you get some great damage off them with torps. Edited August 23, 2016 by Nuk_ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1,849 [AXANR] poeticmotion Members 3,650 posts 23,502 battles Report post #8 Posted August 23, 2016 (edited) Thanks for the reply. Thats interesting, personally I haven't played German BBs but I do play CV occasionally. Maybe I'll try more to test this out. But German BB is now having better armor, better reload time, better or at least equal AA to USN, better maneuverability than both IJN and USN counterparts at mid tier (T4 - T7). It seems to me their only downside is terrible AP and HE, which is compensated by having much faster reload. Right now I have no idea how to counter a German BB really. Edit: Also forgot to mention that German BB got access to 380mm at T6, which have same reload time as Warspite but again, much better armor protection and much faster turret traverse. It easily out guns any other T6 battleships and can even compete at T7... I really hope WG will re consider this. This ship is a disaster at T6. Not really true. She has bigger guns than New Mexi, but New Mexi has 50% more guns (Bayern has 4x2 15", New Mexi has 4x3 14"). And like all German BBs, Bayern's dispersion is wonky, so while she's a better close-in fighter than anything else in her tier, New Mexico and Fuso will both be stronger at mid and long range. I believe you're also incorrect in saying she has MUCH better armor protection...New Mexico has very tanky armor if you angle her right, and while Bayern is very difficult to citadel, she doesn't get overpenned the way New Mexi does with her all-or-nothing scheme. Bayern's a good ship. But I don't think she is going to be a disaster, or even unusually OP for her tier. Edited August 23, 2016 by poeticmotion Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
15 ThatLungfish Members 163 posts 6,068 battles Report post #9 Posted August 23, 2016 (edited) Most German BBs will have captains with 15+ skills already, I've had 15 skill captain since kaiser. The best thing CV players can learn is to check for the opposing teams strong AAs at the loading screen and avoid them, not come here asking for nerf . Edited August 23, 2016 by ThatLungfish 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1,849 [AXANR] poeticmotion Members 3,650 posts 23,502 battles Report post #10 Posted August 23, 2016 Most German BBs will have captains with 15+ skills already, I've had 15 skill captain since kaiser. The best thing CV players can learn is to check for the opposing teams strong AAs at the loading screen . Most? Only for players that owned Tirpitz or that re-specced captains from German cruisers. Some do, but most is an exaggeration. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
23 [RNF] OVERDRIVEZhi Members 109 posts 12,870 battles Report post #11 Posted August 23, 2016 Not really true. She has bigger guns than New Mexi, but New Mexi has 50% more guns (Bayern has 4x2 15", New Mexi has 4x3 14"). And like all German BBs, Bayern's dispersion is wonky, so while she's a better close-in fighter than anything else in her tier, New Mexico and Fuso will both be stronger at mid and long range. I believe you're also incorrect in saying she has MUCH better armor protection...New Mexico has very tanky armor if you angle her right, and while Bayern is very difficult to citadel, she doesn't get overpenned the way New Mexi does with her all-or-nothing scheme. Bayern's a good ship. But I don't think she is going to be a disaster, or even unusually OP for her tier. I got your point. But from my experience, there's very little you can do against a Bayern in either NM or Fuso, because both of the ships are not good at long range either. Once Bayern is angled, unlike Warspite's soft armor, all the 14'' shell does is bounce off, while Bayern can throw shells back at NM and Fuso at range and get effective penetration shots. Yes, the dispersion might be bad, but over time it is still capable of dealling significant amount of dmg to other T6 ships while other T6 BBs can't do anything at all. Additionally, Bayern have much thinner profile than the New Maxico, so it takes much less shots while in boardside compare to the New Maxico. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
37 [F7] gunstones Members 103 posts 4,263 battles Report post #12 Posted August 23, 2016 I've been having the worst experience ever when it comes to my German BB AA, almost every game carriers will attack my Bayern and it seems lucky to shoot down 1-2 and avoid all the torps and bombs heading my way Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
23 [RNF] OVERDRIVEZhi Members 109 posts 12,870 battles Report post #13 Posted August 23, 2016 The main counter is destroyers. Most of the German BBs have a slow rudder shift and large turning circle due to their long, slim hulls. Also, their torpedo belts themselves are quite weak, meaning you get some great damage off them with torps. Well, DD of course should counter BBs. But unlike other nations BB, German BBs are only countered by DD. Fuso can be citateled by other BBs and is vulnerable to air attacks, New Maxi is slow and can still get torped by planes, Bayern almost cant be citateled, thinner than New Maxi and Fuso, have better AA than New Maxi and Fuso, larger gun than New Maxi and Fuso, faster than New Maxi... only drawback is dispersion... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
23 [RNF] OVERDRIVEZhi Members 109 posts 12,870 battles Report post #14 Posted August 23, 2016 I've been having the worst experience ever when it comes to my German BB AA, almost every game carriers will attack my Bayern and it seems lucky to shoot down 1-2 and avoid all the torps and bombs heading my way Hey, on your profile: VI Bayern Average Plane shot down: 3.35 Man my Pensicola only have 2.24 plane avg shotdown. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1,849 [AXANR] poeticmotion Members 3,650 posts 23,502 battles Report post #15 Posted August 23, 2016 I got your point. But from my experience, there's very little you can do against a Bayern in either NM or Fuso, because both of the ships are not good at long range either. Once Bayern is angled, unlike Warspite's soft armor, all the 14'' shell does is bounce off, while Bayern can throw shells back at NM and Fuso at range and get effective penetration shots. Yes, the dispersion might be bad, but over time it is still capable of dealling significant amount of dmg to other T6 ships while other T6 BBs can't do anything at all. Additionally, Bayern have much thinner profile than the New Maxico, so it takes much less shots while in boardside compare to the New Maxico. Thats interesting, personally I haven't played German BBs... [snip] You can keep arguing, but until you play Bayern for yourself I'm not going to keep trying to convince you that she's not that OP. Show us on the doll where the German BB touched you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
139 cmdr_raccoon Members 821 posts Report post #16 Posted August 23, 2016 Show us on the doll where the German BB touched you. oh this is a thing now? i recall this used a lot for whining against DD torps Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
37 [F7] gunstones Members 103 posts 4,263 battles Report post #17 Posted August 23, 2016 Hey, on your profile: VI Bayern Average Plane shot down: 3.35 Man my Pensicola only have 2.24 plane avg shotdown. Thats because every single time I pull out my Bayern I get a game with 2 CVs that spend the entire match trying to kill new german BB. Good times gooooood times Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
17,545 [WOLF5] HazeGrayUnderway [WOLF5] Members 38,564 posts 31,207 battles Report post #18 Posted August 23, 2016 Hey, on your profile: VI Bayern Average Plane shot down: 3.35 Man my Pensicola only have 2.24 plane avg shotdown. CV players tend not to go for Cruisers. They tend to go for BBs. With the German BBs being new, they're going to be tested by the CV players. A number of German BBs can have good AA ratings. The difference Lert pointed out is where their effective DPS lies. USN BBs tend to excel at short and medium range AA. German BBs excel at long range AA while short and medium are mediocre in their AA DPS. Tier X AA differences between GK and Montana are the epitome of this difference because they take that difference from 10 to Eleventeen. The question a CV player needs to answer is if the German BB is AA spec or not. Just make sure to look at the match loading screen previews and look at the stats. You should be able to start telling the difference between an AA or Secondaries Spec Gneisenau, Scharnhorst, Bismarck, etc. In addition, you can expect a USN BB to go for AA spec on a more regular basis. They're either going to go all-in on their main battery for upgrades or go for an AA build, which is quite traditional for VII+. For a German BB, that's not as clear cut. They may keep going to reinforce their main battery with upgrades, or improve their secondaries which their line is known for, or improve their AA. A lot of guys are going for Secondaries Build. What you need to do is catch stat differences between them in the loading screen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
157 JochenHeiden Members 866 posts 8,847 battles Report post #19 Posted August 23, 2016 I have the König right now and despite a captain with AFT, I am not impressed with the AA. The König is barely shooting down 1 or 2 planes in an attack wave and I am eating a ton of bombs and torpedoes in the process. Even against Langley's planes, I find the König's AA severely lacking. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2,211 10T0nHammer Members 7,307 posts 3,304 battles Report post #20 Posted August 23, 2016 German BB AA is quite potent. Even the Kaiser poses serious threat to T4 CVs. Gneisenau, Bismark, Fat Freddy and Großer all are deadly anti air zones, especially if secondary spec'd (which doubles as AA) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
37 [F7] gunstones Members 103 posts 4,263 battles Report post #21 Posted August 23, 2016 I have the König right now and despite a captain with AFT, I am not impressed with the AA. The König is barely shooting down 1 or 2 planes in an attack wave and I am eating a ton of bombs and torpedoes in the process. Even against Langley's planes, I find the König's AA severely lacking. Funny you mention the Konig, she has the best AA compared to the other t5 BBs (excluding Texas). I never had a problem with her AA. Bayern stock though... Oooh boy, I vomit a little everytime I think of all the games I played in the stock hull... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
45 [BOTES] GFischer [BOTES] Members 198 posts 12,201 battles Report post #22 Posted August 23, 2016 (edited) A full AA Gneisenau has 330dps at 7.5km. I need to test It, but if thats tha case is one of the better AA for team battles... Edit: also 400dps @5.1km Edited August 23, 2016 by GFischer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
157 JochenHeiden Members 866 posts 8,847 battles Report post #23 Posted August 23, 2016 Funny you mention the Konig, she has the best AA compared to the other t5 BBs (excluding Texas). I never had a problem with her AA. Bayern stock though... Oooh boy, I vomit a little everytime I think of all the games I played in the stock hull... what captain skills are you using this you are having great results? I have AFT and my AA is rated at 45, and biplane torpedo planes attack me with near impunity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
23 [RNF] OVERDRIVEZhi Members 109 posts 12,870 battles Report post #24 Posted August 25, 2016 (edited) German AA DPS is concentrated in their long range batteries, USN AA more on medium range. Lert, I found a new video from iChase, ( ) he expressed in this video exactly what my current concern (kinda off this AA topic, more of a general balancing with this game), which is: What's the point of USN BBs and Cruisers, if KM counterpart is performing USN's role better than USN in almost every way? I'd really like to see your opinion because I respect you as a supertester and I believe you have a good understanding of the game. Edited August 25, 2016 by OVERDRIVEZhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2 GSPatton_ Members 22 posts 2,167 battles Report post #25 Posted August 29, 2016 all i know is dont come close to my gneis, i routinely have 20+ planes killed a game. i do have a seconderies build, but just saying its possible to be a fly swatter extrordanaire in german bbs. my aaa on gneis is 64 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
