For Science! Manual Secondaries vs Auto Secondaries Accuracy in a Contained Test Situation

[Compassghost]

Featuring Death Sausage!

 

Test Set-up: Yamato as a target, angled at 15 degrees, 6.5km from a broadside GK. GK has Secondary Flag and Secondary Module upgrade. Captain A has full secondary build, Captain B just has reloading skill. AFT does not increase accuracy, only range, and since target is 6.5km this is not an issue.

 

With Manual, all of the shells fell within the length of the ship. Shots typically went short or long by up to half a ship's length.

 

 

Without manual, shells literally flew everywhere to the left and right of the ship.

 

 

Accuracy Results:

 

With Manual: 41.5%

 

Without Manual: 15.6%

[Dutch_81]

Please do more science experiments, it is very educational to see this. +1

[Jim_Byrnes]

Thats some very good information! Thanks for the time spent putting this report together!

[Parker_xgps]

My concern has always been how the dispersion buff would help with enemies learned in the ways of wasd.

 

If secondary dispersion is that much better but the arc is long, couldn't one dodge it?

 

Edit: +1, always love seeing mechanic tests.

[Compassghost]

My concern has always been how the dispersion buff would help with enemies learned in the ways of wasd.

 

If secondary dispersion is that much better but the arc is long, couldn't one dodge it?

 

Edit: +1, always love seeing mechanic tests.

 

On smaller targets, yes, your accuracy will decrease since there is round travel time, but 40% accuracy versus WASD hacks is much better than 15% for getting a chance to hit, and the secondaries have pinpoint prediction since they have the AI algorithm.

[BullHalsey]

What I've found even without a scientific examination, now that we have the god mode view once we are sunk, is an appreciation for just how bad secondaries are in the game without the full build.  They literally do fly all over the place like an old blunderbuss.  Part of the huge nerfing of bbs in order to make the game work as it does.  Makes sense; the strongest ships have their capabilities greatly reduced, while the weakest, dds, get a degree of total invisibility and an unlimited amount of the most powerful weapon in the game.  We have stuff like destroyers surviving 16" shell hits, and bbs being melted down by destroyer he fire because their secondaries are fired apparently by drunken [edited]*special people.  I've posted it before but an interesting note on just how much damage these old battlewagons could actually take:

 

The USS Nevada, between NY and NM, was the only BB to get underway at Pearl attack, fought through the war in the Pacific, survived not one but two atomic test blasts, and then was used as a target by three ships including the Iowa.  After "several hours of sustained broadsides from each ship, Nevada finally rolled onto her side but still refused to sink".  She was finally dispatched by an aerial torpedo amidships, which at that angle either meant into the deck or the bottom of the hull.  Just an illustration and reminder that we don't quite dwell within reality here in our wows world.

 

 

[Azzura]

Why don't you try the experiment with a tiny DD as the target?

[Fog_Battleship_Tosa]

AFT does not increase accuracy, only range, and since target is 6.5km this is not an issue.

 

 

I keep forgetting to look into this, but IIRC, AFT increases range by 20% but not dispersion, meaning AFT does give a 20% dispersion buff for the same range as before.

[Kanzler_Bismarck]

I like the manual control... when I just have ships on one side of me... I just don't when my ship is between TWO enemies... which is often lol. 

 

Thanks for this effort, man. Not sure if this was in a reply to my earlier posting asking JUST this question, but it's appreciated either way. 

 

Edit: It was INDEED in reply to my earlier post! THANKS CG!

[BullHalsey]

One thing about manual control which I haven't seen anyone mention is the situational awareness you give up using it, i.e. you're in heat of battle engaging possibly multiple ships and then your secondaries go off, alerting you at once to the presence of a destroyer which has suddenly appeared somewhere within their range.  With MFT you don't get that anymore.

[715]

Thanks for showing us the data. Looks like manual secondary skill sobers up those secondary gunners.

[atPrick__]

What I've found even without a scientific examination, now that we have the god mode view once we are sunk, is an appreciation for just how bad secondaries are in the game without the full build.  They literally do fly all over the place like an old blunderbuss.  Part of the huge nerfing of bbs in order to make the game work as it does.  Makes sense; the strongest ships have their capabilities greatly reduced, while the weakest, dds, get a degree of total invisibility and an unlimited amount of the most powerful weapon in the game.  We have stuff like destroyers surviving 16" shell hits, and bbs being melted down by destroyer he fire because their secondaries are fired apparently by drunken [edited]*special people.  I've posted it before but an interesting note on just how much damage these old battlewagons could actually take:

 

The USS Nevada, between NY and NM, was the only BB to get underway at Pearl attack, fought through the war in the Pacific, survived not one but two atomic test blasts, and then was used as a target by three ships including the Iowa.  After "several hours of sustained broadsides from each ship, Nevada finally rolled onto her side but still refused to sink".  She was finally dispatched by an aerial torpedo amidships, which at that angle either meant into the deck or the bottom of the hull.  Just an illustration and reminder that we don't quite dwell within reality here in our wows world.

 

 

 

So in your opinion the strongest class is the one that was completely obsolete years before the second world war even kicked off? Right? 

 

The class of warships that was never built past 1944?

 

 

[SirKenshi]

[BullHalsey]

Touch a nerve or something there?  Completely obsolete is quite a stretch; the pre war strategy was obsolete, not the ship type.  In any case, we are not fighting as a fleet here, the maps are small, all is a meeting engagement, and much has been adjusted to make it all work within the more or less arcade restraints, i.e. the drunken short range secondary batteries.  Look up what became of the USS Edsall, at ranges far beyond where a destroyer would be completely invisible within the game.

[CrazyHorse_Denver]

Just the kind of information players need to make the proper decisions according to their personal playing style. I do like the idea of increased accuracy but don't like the idea of not being able to engage ships on both sides of me(how often does that happen to me anyway) or the alarm that tells me when the secondaries go off to quit staring down the gun sights and look around. I'll probably try it out on one of my ships and if it works try it on others. Of course choosing the right ship to try it on is important as well as having enough skill points to use it in the first place.

[MajorRenegade]

Just the kind of information players need to make the proper decisions according to their personal playing style. I do like the idea of increased accuracy but don't like the idea of not being able to engage ships on both sides of me(how often does that happen to me anyway) or the alarm that tells me when the secondaries go off to quit staring down the gun sights and look around. I'll probably try it out on one of my ships and if it works try it on others. Of course choosing the right ship to try it on is important as well as having enough skill points to use it in the first place.

easy, i just set my secondary guns on the target behind me(other side) while I deal with the ship where my guns are facing. 2 birds with 1 stone

[Compassghost]

This is the price of science.

 

I just played a game in the GK:

 

 

Then I realized something back in port.

 

 

I had a 1pt captain in T10s and I got 2 CQE medals. Well, now he's a 5-pointer.

[atPrick__]

Touch a nerve or something there?  Completely obsolete is quite a stretch; the pre war strategy was obsolete, not the ship type.  In any case, we are not fighting as a fleet here, the maps are small, all is a meeting engagement, and much has been adjusted to make it all work within the more or less arcade restraints, i.e. the drunken short range secondary batteries.  Look up what became of the USS Edsall, at ranges far beyond where a destroyer would be completely invisible within the game.

 

Touch a nerve? No.

 

I just bit on the troll bait.

 

The arcade aspects are the only thing that keep BBs relevant in game, otherwise the game would be dominated by CVs killing stuff, DDs running screens and Cruisers providing AA support for CVs and fire support for Destroyers. It was a bit like this around 8-10 months ago...

[Skye_Hino]

 

 

I keep forgetting to look into this, but IIRC, AFT increases range by 20% but not dispersion, meaning AFT does give a 20% dispersion buff for the same range as before.

 

Aft does nothing to dispersion. If your secondaries have a max dispersion of, say, 200m at their usual range of 7km, with AFT it will still be 200m @ 7km, and at the new max range of 8.4km it'll be even worse.

[BullHalsey]

 

Touch a nerve? No.

 

I just bit on the troll bait.

 

The arcade aspects are the only thing that keep BBs relevant in game, otherwise the game would be dominated by CVs killing stuff, DDs running screens and Cruisers providing AA support for CVs and fire support for Destroyers. It was a bit like this around 8-10 months ago...

 

I've been around longer than 8-10 months, and you talk like we are all coordinated every time as a team.  I recall an old salt tester, incidentally, retelling of what happened when bbs were given their historical secondaries, firing at close to cruiser ranges with accuracy all over the map.  Apparently it was not pretty, and even less playable for other ship types.  The maps are simply too small and the engagements far too close to have the type of combat you would call for.  I'm not advocating it, but give all the ships their accurate radar directed (those that had it) main guns and see what ship is "obsolete".

[Granitebeard]

While I feel this info is good solid info, I am still not sold on the manual secondaries. A stationary ships is one thing, how about a moving ship? Moving applies to both, perhaps the haphazard spray and pray helps here more? Also park both the ships with manual and not, 6.5km between two ships and tell me how it differs. Not trying to down your experiment, just looking at it through my eyes. I found it so unforgiving that I no longer used them. Perhaps if the sit back and shoot meta changes a little it would be more valuable. I just feel that, even with IJN and KM rnages, the meta hurts this option. And while the auto-fire option will hit less, as you have proven here, it will happen every time, even if you can't micro manage (looking at myself in some situations really) or the enemy ship wasn't spotted before you saw him 6km away. I typically found myself forgetting and getting frustrated that my secondaries weren't working, then remembered and felt stupid. That was when they were new, and well having played for so long before that, I guess I just couldn't learn a new trick. Granted I could probably do it now with the germans as I am only at tier 5, so have plenty of time to remember.

 

Might try it again, but will probably stick with JoaT for most tier 10 non-DD.

[Compassghost]

 

 

These are two videos of me playing GK. First one has manual, second one does not. The DD fighting parts especially, I hit way more consistently.

 

 

[BullHalsey]

While I feel this info is good solid info, I am still not sold on the manual secondaries. A stationary ships is one thing, how about a moving ship? Moving applies to both, perhaps the haphazard spray and pray helps here more? Also park both the ships with manual and not, 6.5km between two ships and tell me how it differs. Not trying to down your experiment, just looking at it through my eyes. I found it so unforgiving that I no longer used them. Perhaps if the sit back and shoot meta changes a little it would be more valuable. I just feel that, even with IJN and KM rnages, the meta hurts this option. And while the auto-fire option will hit less, as you have proven here, it will happen every time, even if you can't micro manage (looking at myself in some situations really) or the enemy ship wasn't spotted before you saw him 6km away. I typically found myself forgetting and getting frustrated that my secondaries weren't working, then remembered and felt stupid. That was when they were new, and well having played for so long before that, I guess I just couldn't learn a new trick. Granted I could probably do it now with the germans as I am only at tier 5, so have plenty of time to remember.

 

Might try it again, but will probably stick with JoaT for most tier 10 non-DD.

 

It's like I said earlier, while I will absolutely use manual secondaries as available, I do miss the awareness I get from them when a DD (or anything) suddenly appears and I hear my secondaries go off alerting me to it.  I think the secondaries should fire normally with the improved accuracy (both sides) and be selectable as well by target.

 

[Compassghost]

If you learn to manual secondary all the time, your awareness will shoot through the roof.

[Kilo69]

If you learn to manual secondary all the time, your awareness will shoot through the roof.

 

This is so true!