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Cruisers; Steel, Paper, or Fiction?

In the wake of German battleships finally hitting the servers today, the unveiling of the British (Light)Cruiser Line, I thought I'd make this little chart. When talking about ships, particularly high-tier ones, the 'paper ship' slur gets thrown around a lot(especially around the Russians), as if these ships were purely fictional. that isn't quite that case, though some of the ships in WoWs seem to be...

In any event, i decided to create this handy-dandy chart. Basically, what it's for is to keep track of the ships(just cruisers for the moment, more later) we have in WoWs, and just how 'real' they are. I'm only doing line ships, as premiums kinda exist for the 'wow-that's-cool-but-probably-not-gonna-fit-in-a-line' ships(mostly).

 

I have four categories at the moment;

Green = Ships that were built and saw service

Violet = Ships that were partially constructed, but were destroyed/scrapped before completion 

Blue = Paper ships in the purest sense, existing only as blueprints, but never constructed. 

Orange = I dunno. No, really, i don't know. These are the ships I can find nothing on, and as far as I know are pure fiction constructed by WG to fill tree gaps, which, I guess, if it's necessary, it's necessary. I'm not going to blame them for it if they couldn't find anything, so long as the fictional ship doesn't take the place of a real one.

 

382b3fe7fa7cb0114ab4e72f8efedd39_zpsbjzr

 

USN, RN, IJN, VMF, & KM are all the ships were currently that are confirmed and in. The RM & MN lines(Indicated by the reddish color) we don't know, and are just based off of community speculation. The French one has holes in it, because I frankly don't know a lot about French WWI and pre-WWI cruisers, and for the tier X, I dunno what would go there. So for now, you can kinda ignore them if you want.

Important:

This chart is open to edits! If you guys have anything to add or to fix, then do comment, and I'll edit it! For example, I think I've seen someone mention the Orlan as actually being a design, but I can't find anything on it so for now I've put it as fiction, not a blueprint. Additionally, I know there were loads of Soviet ships that got laid down, but were never completed, so if that's any of the classes I have listed as purely blueprints, fire away!

 

My other "Steel, Paper, or Fiction?" Threads:

Aircraft Carriers

Battleships

Cruisers

Destroyers

 

Edit log:

Edit 1: Yorck changed from Orange to Blue. She is a version of the Entwurf I/10 cruiser design, and appears to be slightly modified by WG, although still retaining the same shape/layout. Pointed out by crzyhawk.

Edit 2: French cruisers have been updated, keep in mind, these are just specualtives. Beautemps-Beaupré, a variation of the Bougainville-class aviso, has been added as the tier I. She's purple, as she was laid down but not completed. Jurien de la Gravière is added as the tier II cruiser as well, the last French protect cruiser, free because she was built and operated during WWI. Both brought up by Lord_Magnus. Also, at tier X, I've put in the C5 SA1 design, which is to St. Louis what Des Monies is to Baltimore. Similar ship, but auto-loaders! Well, semi at least. Same 10 rpm at Des Monies, supposedly.

Edit 3: Wargaming announcement! French cruisers have been announced, much of the placement I had previously was correct, although Suffren isn't present, instead Algérie was dropped to tier VII. There are a couple of blueprint vessels, and an unknown, but I'll go into more detail in the update post.

Edited by Phoenix_jz

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Good job on making this! :medal:

 

Zao could've been a real plan, but ships that have only gone into blueprint stage and nothing else had no names, like the A-150 class battleships.

Edited by Unabletony

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iirc Zao was based on a real plan but I can't remember the name, it was alphanumeric I believe. Roon and Hindy are entirely creations of WG.


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Zao is based off of something... somewhere. This, possibly, though Zao differs in a number of ways from that design.


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I've seen some speculations of Zao's origins potentially being a design that was burned when Japan surrendered, but haven't found anything solid on it.

As for Yorck... Thanks for the link, it was very informative. The certainly seem to share an almost exact basic appearance when it comes to hull, superstructure, funnel, primary armament, and torpedo tube placement, but it also seems that WG has taken some liberties with the design, for example the post mentioning it cites 205mm guns, while the Yorck we know has 210mm guns, among other things. I'll certainly take a deeper look when I have the time, but unfortunately can't atm. Also can't edit it atm, but I will certainly bring Yorck out of the orange category.


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Alright, so I've updated the chart! Haven't looked further into Zao as of now, but I have looked into Yorck. She seems to be kinda a half and half of blue and orange... She definitely started her life as the Entwurf I/10 design, but appears to've had some modifications from WG, mostly in terms of armament and such. However, she is the same ship, and WG has modified plenty of ships for hull refits to keep them competitive. So she's going from orange to blue.

Credit to crzyhawk for pointing it out.


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As far as the Roon goes, I think it may be based on the P-class cruisers

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-class_cruiser

 

The major difference I see here is that the guns on the Roon are the same as the Hipper, just with a new layout (the one on the P-class).  The layout is like the P-class, including the 4 15cm cannons as the secondary battery.  I don't know if that's sufficient for it to be blue, but I think it at least merits a mention.


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Can see something similar here with the Zao.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_B-65_cruiser

 

Secondaries are the same Type98 100mm cannons and we see a remarkable similarity in the shape of the ship and her superstructure, but again the main batteries are not upgraded to the battlecruiser size armaments in the plan.  WG has been leaning in WoWS away from using design names like in WoT, so the fact that they didn't use names like B-65 is no more out of the ordinary than the tier IX German BB not being called H39 in this game.  That said, unlike with H39 and H41 some liberties were taken, but they are also occasionally taken with hull variants on steel ships.

 

In any case, food for thought.


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I'll have to take another look at the Roon and P-class, but the Zao is most certainly not the B-65... That thing has battleship caliber guns battlecruiser like armor

 


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That thing has 3x3 356 mm guns. Definitely not Zao. 

 

You'll note I said, like with the P-class, that the main caliber weapons were downsized to standard cruiser levels, probably for balance.  It is obviously not the Zao itself, but I think it may be the paper that WG was inspired by.

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You'll note I said, like with the P-class, that the main caliber weapons were downsized to standard cruiser levels, probably for balance.  It is obviously not the Zao itself, but I think it may be the paper that WG was inspired by.

 

She might've inspired WG, but that still does''t make Zao a real design anymore than the Großer Kurfürst is. They may have been designed by WG to reflect the next stage in design for either countries warships, heavy cruiser or battleship... but they're still fictitious ships designed by WG.

I understand your logic, but I don't think it's enough to say that those ships are real ships, in the blueprint sense.


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The Zao is probably a combination of multiple paper plans. The Armour layout whilst thicker, (duh), is pure mogami. As noted the secondery arrangment appears to bear similarities to other ships. No idea where the 4 triple turrets came from though. That is odd.


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Zao is based off of something... somewhere. This, possibly, though Zao differs in a number of ways from that design.

 

This does look very similar to the in game Zao.

She seems to be belongs to IJN maru 6 keikaku (Circle Six Program) super cruiser project, and was design to counter Baltimore and Des Moines

Some refer this class of cruiser as the Unzen class heavy cruiser


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From what I can find, the Zao we know is based off of that picture, but that picture is also a fake. It's from a Japanese magazine, and is apparently what the artist thought one of the Circle 6 program ships would look like based on the rough specifications. It's in no way a real design, however. Unfortunately, I can't read Japanese, so i have no idea what the text says itself. This is just what I've found as explanations for the Magazine illustration.


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I would suggest that Beautemps-Beaupré is the obvious Tier 1 "cruiser" for France. My first thought was just a basic Bougainville-class aviso, with the thought of "who cares, it's just Tier 1" regarding their being weaker than other nations' sloops, but then I saw that Beautemps-Beaupré (scuttled before completion) was a modified design with either 4 or 6 100mm/45 Modèle 1933 guns and thus a closer match to the other T1 gunboats/sloops.

 

For Tier 2, Jurien de la Gravière seems like a decent fit. She was the last French protected cruiser and just about the only one that didn't have a mixed-caliber main armament.

 

For Tier 3, there'd be two possibilities I can see. But the one I find more interesting is unlikely because it would break gun caliber progression. Edgar Quinet is an armored cruiser (a type we haven't seen in the game) but doesn't have a mixed-caliber main armament so she's be one of the few armored cruisers that wouldn't fall into the Mikasa trap of near-useless main armament and reliance on close-range only secondaries. The other possibility is the training cruiser Jeanne d'Arc, which has the advantage of flowing directly to Duguay-Trouin at Tier 4 (they have basically identical guns and armor but Duguay-Trouin is much faster and has 12 torpedo tubes). Plus she apparently had a decent war record with the Free French Navy.

Edited by Lord_Magus

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I would suggest that Beautemps-Beaupré is the obvious Tier 1 "cruiser" for France. My first thought was just a basic Bougainville-class aviso, with the thought of "who cares, it's just Tier 1" regarding their being weaker than other nations' sloops, but then I saw that Beautemps-Beaupré (scuttled before completion) was a modified design with either 4 or 6 100mm/45 Modèle 1933 guns and thus a closer match to the other T1 gunboats/sloops.

 

For Tier 2, Jurien de la Gravière seems like a decent fit. She was the last French protected cruiser and just about the only one that didn't have a mixed-caliber main armament.

 

For Tier 3, there'd be two possibilities I can see. But the one I find more interesting is unlikely because it would break gun caliber progression. Edgar Quinet is an armored cruiser (a type we haven't seen in the game) but doesn't have a mixed-caliber main armament so she's be one of the few armored cruisers that wouldn't fall into the Mikasa trap of near-useless main armament and reliance on close-range only secondaries. The other possibility is the training cruiser Jeanne d'Arc, which has the advantage of flowing directly to Duguay-Trouin at Tier 4 (they have basically identical guns and armor but Duguay-Trouin is much faster and has 12 torpedo tubes). Plus she apparently had a decent war record with the Free French Navy.

 

Interesting... with that increase in firepower, I think they could be made to work. From what I can see of the upgrade, it would be a 3x2 setup, and though these rounds wouldn't do to much damage (13.5kg round), and have a low velocity of 780mps, Navweaps gives a theoretical RoF of 16, and a realistic one of 10, and there are 6 guns, so I'm sure a balance could be struck. 

My big concern is speed, as at best, using the absolute maximum any one of these ships ever reached, is 17.5kts... which is quite slow. However, she'd still be big for her tier, so I suppose one could balance that out with hitpoints.

 

For the tier II, She'd be the slowest, but heaviest ship... armor, ok, firepower... those 164mm guns, 6.5in, are powerful... but they've got a RoF of only 3 rpm. That's the same RoF as Scharnhorst's guns. And there's only 8 of them, and what, it's 5 to a broadside? I've also read her turning radius was something awful like 2000m... but with the right buffs, I think she could work reasonably well. The RoF needs to be at least 4, imo. The Chikuma has a similar armament layout, but with 6in guns, with a RoF of 5 rpm, so they are quite comparable... But Chikuma also goes 26kts, even if her armor is paper lol.

 

For tier III, Edgar Quinet would be incredible... but no, she won't make it, definitely not at tier 3. 14x 194mm guns... and those guns are quite good, except for RoF. Plus, that establishes a precedent for heavy armor and firepower at the cost of speed, almost the opposite of what French cruisers will be like. You're looking at a ship that is both faster and better armored than the St. Louis, and is waaaayyyyyy better armed. That thing could probably out-duel some of the tier 3 battleships XD

 

Jeanne d'Arc is just a no at tier III. I hate to be a party pooper, but even with her moderate speed of 25-27kts, and near total lack of effective armor, she'd still vaporize everything else at tier III. A modern layout of 8x 155mm guns, really good guns, in a 4x2 setup. Enough AA to render most CVs she could meet, literally only the starter ones, ineffective.

Keep in mind, she's fighting ships like the St. LouisChikumaKolberg, and Bogatyr. You think those can stand up to something like the d'Arc? I think not.

 

Overall, I like the ideas for the tiers I & II, both could fit well, or with only minor buffs/nerfs. The D'Arc or Quinet tier III, on the other hand, would just unceremoniously stomp everything else at the tier into the ground. I think France's best bet for a tier III cruiser is to just use one of the German cruisers they got post-WWI as reparations. As long as Germany isn't seeing them in their tree, it shouldn't cause too many problems, no?

 

I think i'll stick in the options for tier I & II, but tier III stay open for now...


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I was thinking in terms of Jeanne d'Arc being a ship that would be weak at Tier 4 so maybe she'd work at Tier 3, but you're right about how the guns are way too good for that tier. I'd really prefer there didn't end up being a German cruiser in the French tree, but if that's what it takes to make a balanced tree then that's what it takes.


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The French have a couple of options for tier III. 

The most obvious one is Lamotte-Piquet, the 4,500t light cruiser. 

Like a number of French naval projects, it was foresaken by circumstance, in this case WWI. 

Essentially its the equivalent of Caledon. 

 

There is also the design that lies between the above and Duguay Trouin (which would have been the tier IV is WG had any sense of foresight)

which has the 138mm guns of the above in the layout of Duguay Trouin. 

 

Who needs a nice smooth progression curve?


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At any rate, I presume WG would have to go fictional for the Tier 10 French cruiser. An enlarged Saint Louis with quad turrets, maybe.


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Alright, the chart's updated. Nothing major, no changes to what's already in-game/confirmed, but just an update to the speculative French stuff. I've added a tier 1, 2, and 10 design. Tier 3, I still haven't figured out, currently trying to find info on the Lamotte-Piquet design. The tier 1 is a variation of the Bougainville-class that was never completed, hence purple, and the tier II, Graviére was France's final protected cruiser, which saw service during WWI(and obviously is green). Credit for both goes to Lord_Magnus. The tier X is a paper(so blue) design, basically like the tier IX but with autoloading style guns.


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How about Dupleix as the tier III French cruiser? Similar to St. Louis in terms of armor, speed and size but with 4x2 164,7 mm guns. The main sore point is the rate of fire of 3 rounds per minute if you go by the 164,7 mm gun that is on NavWeaps. I've however read that they had an APC shell of 54,9 kg fired at 900 m/s which is pretty decent. Unlike the mount data on NavWeaps I've also read the claim that the guns on Dupleix were electrically trained rather than manually - maybe the rate of fire was also higher? Probably not, but with some WG tweaks it might be alright. One bonus over St. Louis is the armored turrets, you won't just randomly lose guns to enemy HE fire.

Edited by Snowyskies

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