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MinneIceCube

On the topic of Subs....

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Never mind. apparently all the idea I express are stupid, and no one wants to hear what I have to say, because all I can say are things that no-one wants.  so just bloody leave me alone.

Edited by chriscow3
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*twitch*

 

1) Submarines were merchant raiders, not an integral part of open surface warfare, like what this game is about.
2) Submarines are tiny and fragile, they would be laughably easy to kill when surfaced. The Type VII, the most numerous and successful submarine of WWII, displaced 757 tons for example. A typical destroyer in the game displaced easily double to triple that. Ergo, submarine would have like 2500 hitpoints. If that. That's a single shell to sink.
3) Most submarines of the period have a sub 10 knot submerged speed. Have fun trying to catch up to the battle with a ship that goes half as fast as the slowest ship in the game, versus ships that go 5 times that speed and are actively hunting you. You'd never even reach a position remotely useful. Even surfaced they barely went as 'fast' as the slowest ship in the game.
4) Because there exists nothing under the water in the maps. Every map would have to be re-done and double in memory footprint in order to make submarines possible.
5) Not to mention that the entire control scheme would have to be reworked.
6) For the rare case that you do manage to get your submarine in any position to attack, well, there is enough whining about torpedoes appearing out of 'nowhere' that we don't need to add to that, don't you agree?
7) Because of a combination of gameplay reasons, balance reasons, engine limitations and ease-of-playability issues, the devs have chosen not to include any underwater, fixed torpedo tubes in the game. Guess where a submarine keeps its torpedo tubes?
8) The game is a somewhat quick-paced, action oriented game. What aspect about submarines that can't even reach 10 knots screams 'quick paced, action oriented' to you?
9) Adding submarines would also necessitate adding things like depth charges, and cruisers already have anti-submarine counters like hydro-acoustic search (IE, sonar) at any tier that matters.
10) Adding submarines would completely upset the existing balance - for what it's worth. WG can't even properly balance the 4 ship classes we have, and you want to add a fifth, that plays completely different?
11) Destroyers already fit the 'sneaky, stealthy hunter' gameplay niche so there is no need for there to be submarines.
12) Not to mention that a submarine's torpedo tubes are fixed, so you'd have to turn the entire ship to get arc on anything. If you've ever driven a destroyer or cruiser with very limiting, narrow torpedo arcs you can imagine how annoying it would be to try to aim a spread with 0 arc, since this game doesn't have guided torpedoes, just dumbfire ones.
 
So in short, they'd be ridiculously easy to kill, completely useless, boring to play, annoying to play against, totally superfluous, necessitate an overhaul to the maps, control scheme and game balance. They would necessitate weapon overhauls, and the introduction of weapons that the devs have already long since decided aren't going to be in the game.
 
"But this other game has subs and they work just fine!"
 
Yeah? Go play that then.

 

Finally,

 

 

1:00

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YOU DO NOT SPEAK THE 'S' WORD!

 

 

..bad things happen when you do.

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N1AVxfq.jpgLert summed it up nicely so I'll just toss this meme in.....AGAIN

 

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WARNING: THIS IS A BIT IN DEPTH.

 

 

Starts a thread about submarines, makes a depth joke in the first sentence... +1

 

I also feel you deserve the +1 for recognizing another fact: If subs were ever implemented, they'd have to be in a separate game mode and that mode should involve raiding shipping.

 

Personally, I see the depth charge racks on the back of my ships and I lament that I can't kill something with them. I have no interest in driving a submarine (though Silent Hunter is still probably the best way to do it if one were so inclined) and I don't ever want to see them in proper "random battle" mode. But, if they had their own little convoy intercept mode, I'd gladly try to hunt you down and drop explosive barrels on your head.

 

:look: :red_button:

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I'd love to see submarines,  I'm in favor of it,  more variety in targets = more fun,  I think there is a way for them to be worked into the main gameplay without creating a special-snowflake game-mode just for a single class.  

 

But what I think & what you believe, hope, and dream is completely irrelevant in its most absolute meaning.  The community is fiercely divided on the topic & Wargaming has made it painfully clear that they do-not want Submarines right now and that's all there is to it.

 

The games is just not ready for such a class yet,  Wargaming still has to balance allot of stuff, split the class lines, add remaining plethora of nations and a number of other things which is all years down the line before a argument could ever be made for Submarines.

Edited by Hereticus2142

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*twitch*

 

1) Submarines were merchant raiders, not an integral part of open surface warfare, like what this game is about.
2) Submarines are tiny and fragile, they would be laughably easy to kill when surfaced. The Type VII, the most numerous and successful submarine of WWII, displaced 757 tons for example. A typical destroyer in the game displaced easily double to triple that. Ergo, submarine would have like 2500 hitpoints. If that. That's a single shell to sink.
3) Most submarines of the period have a sub 10 knot submerged speed. Have fun trying to catch up to the battle with a ship that goes half as fast as the slowest ship in the game, versus ships that go 5 times that speed and are actively hunting you. You'd never even reach a position remotely useful. Even surfaced they barely went as 'fast' as the slowest ship in the game.
4) Because there exists nothing under the water in the maps. Every map would have to be re-done and double in memory footprint in order to make submarines possible.
5) Not to mention that the entire control scheme would have to be reworked.
6) For the rare case that you do manage to get your submarine in any position to attack, well, there is enough whining about torpedoes appearing out of 'nowhere' that we don't need to add to that, don't you agree?
7) Because of a combination of gameplay reasons, balance reasons, engine limitations and ease-of-playability issues, the devs have chosen not to include any underwater, fixed torpedo tubes in the game. Guess where a submarine keeps its torpedo tubes?
8) The game is a somewhat quick-paced, action oriented game. What aspect about submarines that can't even reach 10 knots screams 'quick paced, action oriented' to you?
9) Adding submarines would also necessitate adding things like depth charges, and cruisers already have anti-submarine counters like hydro-acoustic search (IE, sonar) at any tier that matters.
10) Adding submarines would completely upset the existing balance - for what it's worth. WG can't even properly balance the 4 ship classes we have, and you want to add a fifth, that plays completely different?
11) Destroyers already fit the 'sneaky, stealthy hunter' gameplay niche so there is no need for there to be submarines.
12) Not to mention that a submarine's torpedo tubes are fixed, so you'd have to turn the entire ship to get arc on anything. If you've ever driven a destroyer or cruiser with very limiting, narrow torpedo arcs you can imagine how annoying it would be to try to aim a spread with 0 arc, since this game doesn't have guided torpedoes, just dumbfire ones.
 
So in short, they'd be ridiculously easy to kill, completely useless, boring to play, annoying to play against, totally superfluous, necessitate an overhaul to the maps, control scheme and game balance. They would necessitate weapon overhauls, and the introduction of weapons that the devs have already long since decided aren't going to be in the game.
 
"But this other game has subs and they work just fine!"
 
Yeah? Go play that then.

 

Finally,

 

 

1:00

Everytime I see a sub thread, I prepare myself for the wall of text.

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I like the idea of subs.  I prefer Subway with all the vegetables.  'Toasted' subs are of little interest.  If I want a hot sandwich, I'd also want a hot filling, like meatballs or cheese steak. 

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The only sub I think can work in this game is the Type A Kō-hyōteki-class midget sub, with it's 23 kts surface speed.  She's small enough that hitting her with shells will be very difficult, and she can be at periscope depth and hit a battleship from 1km away, wait for them to pop the damage control, and hit them again so they flood to death.  But this is the only sub I can see working, and you’d have to design a lot around her to make diving work, so it doesn’t seem worth the effort.

 

Edited by Sventex

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An idea to be shelved for another time. Maybe it can be brought up again at a far later date, given that there are still plenty of ship lines to put out.

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Everytime I see a sub thread, I prepare myself for the wall of text.

 

Best way to keep the print stored somewhere so lert can tell everyone why we dont need subs

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Please allow this retired submariner to offer the following input:  NO, NOPE, NADA .........

"You're either qualified or you're not"

~ every submariner - ever

FTG1/SS

 

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I'm disappointed, I thought this thread was about the tasty Kind of subs. 

QXTF2P6.jpg

Now this is the kind of sub I would like to have. 

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WHen they get subs I do hope at least they have Premiums....

 

 Premium-Sub-Detail-LG_ENG_zps9rxskury.pn

 

:trollface:

:trollface:

 

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Maybe those that start threads about wanting or getting SUBS should be perma banned!!!!!!!!!:teethhappy:

 

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YOU DO NOT SPEAK THE 'S' WORD!

 

 

..bad things happen when you do.

 

You quoting BLR? 

 

(The part I'm talking about is at 1:03)

 

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You quoting BLR? 

 

(The part I'm talking about is at 1:03)

 

 

Lol no. But that was funny, thanks for sharing.

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You can already play subs in World of Warships.  Lemme know how much fun you have.  From this thread.

 

 

Want subs in World of Warships?  Think they will be the bees knees?  Well now you can play one!  Yes, you have the opportunity to play the equivalent of a German U-Boat in World of Warships right now on the live client!  So amazing!  So fab!  Time to sink some scrubs!  After doing some research and playing around with a few ships already in game, I found a way to model your very own German U-Boat.  This will be the equivalent of a Type IX U-Boat which had the following characteristics:

 

  • 1000t surface displacement (yielding roughly 9,000 hit points).
  • 6 torpedo tubes (4 bow tubes, 2 stern tubes)
  • 105mm deck gun.
  • Top (surfaced) speed of 20 knots.

 

Right, so now we have to build one of those.  Thankfully, we can do just that.

 

  • Buy a tier 6 IJN Mutsuki-class destroyer.
  • Upgrade her with the C-Hull.  This will drop her guns down to 2 from 4.  But do NOT upgrade her Gun Fire Control System.  We need her gun range to be poor.  You have your choice of which torpedoes to use -- faster, shorter range torpedoes or longer ranged and slower torpedoes which are both historically accurate.
  • Equip her with the following modules:  Magazine Mod 1, Main Battery Modification 2 (to reduce her RoF to help simulate only a single gun), Damage Control Systems Mod 1 and Propulsion Mod 2.  These are to simulate her poor gun firepower and also to simulate her ability to crash-dive with her increase acceleration.
  • For Captain Skills, you will need a 15pt Captain with the following skills:  Basics of Survivability, Torpedo Armament Expertise, Superintendent, Demolition Expert, Concealment Expert.  You'll need Concealment Expert to simulate U-Boat sneakiness. 
  • Buy a premium version of your Smoke consumable.
  • Do not use any signal flags.

 

Now you're also limited in how you can play her.  Here's your restrictions:  You may not move more than at 1/2 speed while "surfaced".  Use your smoke to simulate being submerged, but when you do so, you're limited to 1/4 speed.  If you think this is unrealisitc as there shouldn't be any visual cue to where your boat might be, remember that ASDIC would give them a rough idea where you're hiding anyway.  Even a Corvette was a super-dangerous opponent for a submarine and you're going toe to toe with fleet-escort destroyers and cruisers.

 

Great, now take her out into Co-Op (or Random Battles if you really hate your own team) and see how you do!  You should be able to sink a Warspite, right?  Cause a U-Boat totally sank the HMS Barham (her sister ship).  Lemme know how that works for you.  Post your replays here and show us why Wargaming are fools for not listening to gripes to bring in U-Boat sooner!  Enjoy!

 

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Subs could easily be done in PVE.

Convoy protected by escorts/planes you attack with your sub. Basic model

Include escort ships you could play in the sub hunting mode. More advanced mode

Include jeep carrier sub hunting escort. More advanced mode level II

Weather/fog/night attack....

I can envision it in my minds eye.

 

It would be like a whole separate style of game play.

Might be something wows could explore

 

PVP nope...

 

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*twitch*

 

1) Submarines were merchant raiders, not an integral part of open surface warfare, like what this game is about. While not a large part of surface warfare, they did have a large impact during the war on both sides, taking major targets. IJN lost 7 aircraft carriers to US Subs, US lost Wasp and Yorktown, RN lost several carriers and battleships, etc. A lot of major fleet loses were due to submarines. 
2) Submarines are tiny and fragile, they would be laughably easy to kill when surfaced. The Type VII, the most numerous and successful submarine of WWII, displaced 757 tons for example. A typical destroyer in the game displaced easily double to triple that. Ergo, submarine would have like 2500 hitpoints. If that. That's a single shell to sink. A good weakness in exchange for good stealth
3) Most submarines of the period have a sub 10 knot submerged speed. Have fun trying to catch up to the battle with a ship that goes half as fast as the slowest ship in the game, versus ships that go 5 times that speed and are actively hunting you. You'd never even reach a position remotely useful. Even surfaced they barely went as 'fast' as the slowest ship in the game. Have them stay surfaced until the player chooses to dive. Speed is reduced dramatically when doing so.
4) Because there exists nothing under the water in the maps. Every map would have to be re-done and double in memory footprint in order to make submarines possible. Why not keep the view from the surface when they're submerged, and the player sees their submarine as an outlined shadow? Underneath, the collision aspects would be the same as the lower hull for the other ships. Make it simple, dont deal with different dive heights, etc. 
5) Not to mention that the entire control scheme would have to be reworked.
6) For the rare case that you do manage to get your submarine in any position to attack, well, there is enough whining about torpedoes appearing out of 'nowhere' that we don't need to add to that, don't you agree? True, but lets face it, thats not going away. 
7) Because of a combination of gameplay reasons, balance reasons, engine limitations and ease-of-playability issues, the devs have chosen not to include any underwater, fixed torpedo tubes in the game. Guess where a submarine keeps its torpedo tubes? Yes, that would have to be created and tested. 
8) The game is a somewhat quick-paced, action oriented game. What aspect about submarines that can't even reach 10 knots screams 'quick paced, action oriented' to you? If they're allowed to run on the surface until they reach the combat zone, it wouldn't be much slower than some US BB's. 
9) Adding submarines would also necessitate adding things like depth charges, and cruisers already have anti-submarine counters like hydro-acoustic search (IE, sonar) at any tier that matters. True, though depth charges will give DD's and light cruisers a larger and different role in the game. 
10) Adding submarines would completely upset the existing balance - for what it's worth. WG can't even properly balance the 4 ship classes we have, and you want to add a fifth, that plays completely different? It certainly would, but it would also help refine certain ships roles. 
11) Destroyers already fit the 'sneaky, stealthy hunter' gameplay niche so there is no need for there to be submarines. But that niche has had problems in gameplay, making DD's roles different from reality. Submarines would become the stealthy hunter and DD's would hunt them in addition to their current roles.
12) Not to mention that a submarine's torpedo tubes are fixed, so you'd have to turn the entire ship to get arc on anything. If you've ever driven a destroyer or cruiser with very limiting, narrow torpedo arcs you can imagine how annoying it would be to try to aim a spread with 0 arc, since this game doesn't have guided torpedoes, just dumbfire ones. It would be challenging, but not much worse than some Tank Destroyers we see in WoT and WT. And players would want to make it work
 
So in short, they'd be ridiculously easy to kill, completely useless, boring to play, annoying to play against, totally superfluous, necessitate an overhaul to the maps, control scheme and game balance. They would necessitate weapon overhauls, and the introduction of weapons that the devs have already long since decided aren't going to be in the game. While they have low health, they also have low profiles to hit. And since they have that stealth, they should have low health. Have their depth time be limited, with a cool down period before they're able to dive again. You might not have completely overhaul every map, since for the most part, everything under the water remains the same, with the exception of a ship rising instead of just sinking into the water like it current does, and have the dynamics of firing torpedoes. 

 

I dont think we'll ever see submarines in WoWs. It'd take a huge amount of work that is better off put elsewhere into the game. That said, its not impossible to implement. While there are certainly many cons to adding them, there are also many pro's. Considering the massive effect submarines had during the war, it could be argued that they'd be worth slowly implementing in the game further down the road. 

 

The idea has merit, but its not going to happen. 

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