The Bismarck and the Tirpitz...

[Combined_Fleet_HQ]

So uh was doing a little bit of statistical research and I happened to compare the Tirpitz to the Bismarck. For the most part they nearly identical (I am referring to ship categories such as survivability, artillery, etc. not the actual design/layout of the ships) but there was something that struct me as odd...

 

Here is the AA ratings of both the Tirpitz (left) and the Bismarck (right)

 

But wasn't the Tirpitz supposed to boast improved AA defenses?

 

Now the stats of Bismarck are not final and subject to change, but isn't this interesting?

 

Thoughts?

 

~HQ

[mr3awsome]

That would be elite Bismarck's hull, one would assume, with the historical loadout as stock. 

[wardogz12]

Has to be Hull B..

[Combined_Fleet_HQ]

That would be elite Bismarck's hull, one would assume, with the historical loadout as stock. 

 

Has to be Hull B..

 

Ah yes true, but upon inspecting the stock hull of the Bismarck, it turns out the ship holds an AA rating of 52; precisely 1 point lower than the Tirpitz base AA rating. What does that say about the Tirpitz's "improved AA defense?" 

[Carrier_Graf_Zeppelin]

Well since it doesn't have torpedoes it has to have something to make it stand out. So better AA and longer range secondaries

[RearAdmiralButts]

The difference is that it represents the Bismarck class historical load out and proposed improvements.  Not as is when she was sunk in 1941.  

[mr3awsome]

Ah yes true, but upon inspecting the stock hull of the Bismarck, it turns out the ship holds an AA rating of 52; precisely 1 point lower than the Tirpitz base AA rating. What does that say about the Tirpitz's "improved AA defense?" 

Those ratings don't exactly given an accurate representation.

Presumably if you added up the combined DPS Tirpitz would have a significant edge. 

[Combined_Fleet_HQ]

Well since it doesn't have torpedoes it has to have something to make it stand out. So better AA and longer range secondaries

 

True enough, can't have a premium completely overshadow its line counterpart.

 

Those ratings don't exactly given an accurate representation.

Presumably if you added up the combined DPS Tirpitz would have a significant edge. 

 

Mind elaborating on what you define as combined DPS?  Though that statement did remind me about DPM in regards to AA RoF which can certainly play a factor between the two, thank you for that. 

[Sturg303]

Huh..that does not make any sense.....

[Lert]

Mind elaborating on what you define as combined DPS?

 

You take the various DPS values and add them up. Not hard.

 

Tirpitz has 239 DPS maximum

Bismarck gets <redacted because of NDA> DPS maximum stock and <redacted because of NDA> DPS maximum upgraded.

 

There's your difference. 239 DPS vs <redacted> DPS.

 

[Combined_Fleet_HQ]

 

You take the various DPS values and add them up. Not hard.

 

Tirpitz has 239 DPS maximum

Bismarck gets <redacted because of NDA> DPS maximum stock and <redacted because of NDA> DPS maximum upgraded.

 

There's your difference. 239 DPS vs <redacted> DPS.

 

lol I assumed that what he meant. pardon my ignorance

[Royeaux]

 

But wasn't the Tirpitz supposed to boast improved AA defenses?

 

Now the stats of Bismarck are not final and subject to change, but isn't this interesting?

 

Thoughts?

 

~HQ

 

Well, the Tirpitz sales video boosted that the Tirpitz AA was little more then a pretty firework display, and that planes were the bane of her existence.

I don't know how powerful the AA guns on the Bismark were, the only famous note about them is that the guns were so "advanced" that they couldn't not target biplanes because the fire control predictors could not target such slow moving aircraft.  During that Swordfish attack, not a single torpedo bomber was shot down.  Now, I'm not sure how the Bismark would have fared against a standard WWII torpedo plane.  I'm waiting for a WG German Battleship naval video to highlight the best features of the line.  Still, it's gotta be pretty embarrassing that the Wright Brothers could probably have disable this super-ship.

[Combined_Fleet_HQ]

 

Well, the Tirpitz sales video boosted that the Tirpitz AA was little more then a pretty firework display, and that planes were the bane of her existence.

I don't know how powerful the AA guns on the Bismark were, the only famous note about them is that the guns were so "advanced" that they couldn't not target biplanes because the fire control predictors could not target such slow moving aircraft.  During that Swordfish attack, not a single torpedo bomber was shot down.  Now, I'm not sure how the Bismark would have fared against a standard WWII torpedo plane.  I'm waiting for a WG German Battleship naval video to highlight the best features of the line.  Still, it's gotta be pretty embarrassing that the Wright Brothers could probably have disable this super-ship.

 

I remember watching a vid about that. When thinking back on that, its bewildering to think AA guns so advanced that they were defeated by old generation planes. Sounds like something out of a movie

[KaptainKaybe]

As some have said above, please note that ships in the tech tree are *classes*, not necessarily the lead ships themselves. So top hull Bismarck class battleship represents it's expected top upgrade were it either a ship laid down later, or the actual Bismarck had it survived and been later refitted.

[JojoTheMongol]

Bismarck is going to be the superior boat overall. Tirpitz's torps are nothing more than a novelty. You used to be able to surprise people with them all the time, but now everyone knows you are packing them. Its rare when I actually land hits with them now. I'll take better secondary range and AA over the torps.

[Royeaux]

 

I remember watching a vid about that. When thinking back on that, its bewildering to think AA guns so advanced that they were defeated by old generation planes. Sounds like something out of a movie

 

Star Wars springs immediately to mind.  The Death Star had turbolasers to repel bigger ships, they didn't expect to be attacked by small, one-man fighters.  Plus the Death Star had a vulnerable point: the reactor exhaust port.

The Bismark was designed to repel faster planes, they didn't expect to be attacked by antiques.  And even the mightiest Battleship have a vulnerable point: the rudder.

 

You'll find throughout history, old technology has a habit of offering an advantage in battle, because the enemy no longer trains for and anticipates their use.  In the Napoleonic wars, long after armor had been total abandoned, the French Cuirassiers adopted the Cuirass again.  In cavalry duels, their opponents found themselves at a disadvantage they could not deal mortal blows to the Cuirassier's torso with pistol or sword.  

[bewbs_]

Bismarck is going to be the superior boat overall. Tirpitz's torps are nothing more than a novelty. You used to be able to surprise people with them all the time, but now everyone knows you are packing them. Its rare when I actually land hits with them now. I'll take better secondary range and AA over the torps.

 

They are a nice way to all but guarantee a TirpvBB  win though, I've taken down many other BB's using them especially when I had an HP disadvantage. I am looking forward to having a tirp with better AA/secondaries though.

 

Awhile ago I was able to get a double strike by splitting down the middle of 2 BB division, torps out both sides, they didn't see it coming, I believe it was 2 Nagato's.

 

Another time I was able to sink a fairly full Yamato by getting both spreads of torps off in a brawl. He was focused on another ship when I came around an island with my first torp salvo out, the way he turned made it possible to turn and get the other salvo off, he couldnt get his turrets on target fast enough, I think I took a salvo or two from his rear turret. It was a very helpful kill as we had no tier 10 BB on our team just tier 8's.

 

[ThatLungfish]

 

 

[reaper_swpz]

Old canvas biplanes are harder to bring down than the more modern metal skinned planes. Anything short of a direct hit to the engine block or right on the girder frames would only result in a hole in the canvas, no crippling damage would be sustained. Metal on the other hand would offer sufficient resistance to detonate any AA round and thus would destroy something far more important. There is ample evidence 20mm Flak hits would blow wings, tails and other parts of the body clean off fighters and other ground attack craft easily when those areas were hit.

 

This is the likely reason why Bismark couldn't shoot a single one of those Swordfish down, she hit them for sure, at least 9 were pushed into the sea after they landed back on the Ark Royal because of the sheer amount of damage they sustained, but not a single one was hit where it mattered - center mass right in the engine block which would have detonated the round and sent the plane right down.

 

Bismark would have done better against an attack by modern torpedo bombers. Alternatively, had she a few hundred MG-34 machine guns and some crack shots to man them on board at the time those Swordfish would likely have all went down.

[CompanionCav]

 

I remember watching a vid about that. When thinking back on that, its bewildering to think AA guns so advanced that they were defeated by old generation planes. Sounds like something out of a movie

 

 

Whenever I hear some tech was "so good it failed," I couldn't help but suspect overengineering. i.e. not as good as claimed.

 

http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-044.htm

[FirestormMk3]

Old canvas biplanes are harder to bring down than the more modern metal skinned planes. Anything short of a direct hit to the engine block or right on the girder frames would only result in a hole in the canvas, no crippling damage would be sustained. Metal on the other hand would offer sufficient resistance to detonate any AA round and thus would destroy something far more important. There is ample evidence 20mm Flak hits would blow wings, tails and other parts of the body clean off fighters and other ground attack craft easily when those areas were hit.

 

This is the likely reason why Bismark couldn't shoot a single one of those Swordfish down, she hit them for sure, at least 9 were pushed into the sea after they landed back on the Ark Royal because of the sheer amount of damage they sustained, but not a single one was hit where it mattered - center mass right in the engine block which would have detonated the round and sent the plane right down.

 

Bismark would have done better against an attack by modern torpedo bombers. Alternatively, had she a few hundred MG-34 machine guns and some crack shots to man them on board at the time those Swordfish would likely have all went down.

 

You are largely correct, but there's a lot to building a "rugged" plane too.  B-17s would come back missing chunks all the time.  Plus it's worthwhile to note that individual bullet holes mattered little to a canvas plane, but tracer rounds could light them up like a kite.