Ranked, what went wrong? Is the game balanced and fun for all classes?

[Zhadum101]

 

*The purpose of this post is not to troll any one class

 

So this ranked season, when players would get into the top 10 ranks, I would see why are all the matches 5DD 2BB. Too many DD’s this sucks.

 

The question, “Why are there so many DD’s?”

 

Well we are asking the wrong question. However I can answer the question. The most played classes are BBs followed by DDs so why are there more DDs? That is because WG limited BBs to two per match. Had they not done so most matches would have been 4BB 3DD. Now they did this probably to encourage players to play cruisers but it did not work.

 

As I mentioned we are asking the wrong question.

 

Why are players not playing Cruisers?

 

Are Cruisers not fun? Not Competitive? Cruisers Kill DD’s why aren’t we seeing them?

 

Well, can’t answer for everyone, but I will tell you why I quit playing them myself. Back during CBT, I had the Ziao. I enjoyed cruisers they were my most played class. However, as I Tier up it became a game of angle perfectly or get deleted by BB. Then it changed as I tier up more too NEVER take BB fire at all from any angle or get deleted by BB. At this point it is now a game for staying hidden behind an island. I did not play cruisers to play a stealth role. Honestly why would I play them stealth when we have a class that is superior in every way at stealth. Cruiser hide behind things while DD’s hide in the open. One has very limited movement the other has unlimited. I played cruisers to be faster and more maneuverable than a BB, and I can’t use any of that. I have to hide behind things to be the least bit effective.

 

So I quit cruisers. HEIL DD

 

Now I play 71% DD’s. I have the Gearing and the Kharb, and I love them both.

 

So what happened? Well this is how I see it:

1. Cruisers are the least favorite of the 3 paper rock scissors classes. Cruiser POP drops.
2. AA coverage drops due to there being less cruisers.
3. CV start running rampant targeting BB that have less AA coverage.
4. CV get nerfed into the ground, torps to half dmg. AA buffed for everyone especially BB.
5. CV gets frustrated and pop drops, they can’t meet the 1 in 12 player quota.
6. As air coverage drops, well this is an unseen and unexpected buff for the stealth class.
7. The rise of the DD, begins with few matches have a CV to expose them.

 

Now let me be straight I don’t want WG to fix cruisers so I can play them. I am done with that. I would like them to fix cruiser so BB players stop complaining “4DD in this match TOO MANY DD.” The whining never ends.

 

I would like to see WG make all classes engaging to players so matches could be 1CV/3BB/4CA/4DD or 1CV/4BB/4CA/3DD or 1CV/4BB/3CA/4DD. If that was the norm it would be great. In order to get here players, need to be encouraged to play Cruisers.

 

However I will not be playing cruisers. I hate them. THANKS OBAMA (Oh Sorry THANKS WARGAMES)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Terrible_Turtle]

Interesting analysis. 

 

It's not unlike an ecosystem. If you starve one species, the other species up the food chain suffer as well, and the entire ecosystem is affected. Likewise, if you eliminate a specific predator, the prey of said predator flourishes and becomes noxious. 

[Spyde]

Its pretty Obvious Cruisers are the punching bags of the game.. But there isn't much that can be done about it...

 

 

Only thing ranked can have is Forced MM, or an Incentive to play as a Cruiser...      That and T8... but that is only because of The Atago and Kutzov Prems.

[Edgecase]

How is this poll related to the topic of your post, again?

[LubzinNJ]

Wait why do I feel like I just read this somewhere else...

 

<checks OPs topic history>

 

Oh wait...I did

 

http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/89100-its-not-that-bb-players-are-bad-people-they-are-terrible-people-jk-satire/page__p__2172861#entry2172861

[SnowDriftTurtle]

Well, I'll come at this from a slightly different angle.

 

In Stronghold matches (Clan Wars stuff for World of Tanks), a lot of times you wouldn't see many of the medium tanks...teams would consist of a small amount of light tanks and the rest being heavies.  Not a great comparison, but it can stick.  For Strongholds and I would imagine to the same degree: Ranked battles, you need to have better specialization.  

 

Heavies/BBs for their HP and their raw damage output.

Lights/DDs for their scouting/support abilites. (Plus torps)
 

Mediums, who fill the role of being in between, lose out because they don't do either great and when compared to the others' roles, they are lacking.  I would imagine that this is the same with CA/CL.  Just the way it was.  

I agree with the above that an incentive would provide some enticement to bring a cruiser out, but when it comes to the nature of the game, you're probably not going to see that happen in Ranked.

[pwadoc]

Two factors. WoW suffers from a common problem in games with a speed tanking mechanic. Small, fast, fragile units end up being able to tank more damage than larger units because speed tanking functions by allowing the unit to avoid damage rather than absorb it. The other big thing is that fact that citadel damage means CAs hp pool can be depleted much more rapidly than the comparatively small DD hp pool. Those two factors result in DDs, which are supposed to be small and fragile, out-tanking the larger class that is intended to counter them.

 

I think the only real fix is an across the board reduction in citadel damage, or a revision of the citadel mechanic.

[RE_MARQ]

I would argue at this point in the game that cruisers in general are one of the hardest classes to play well.  I still enjoy them because I never was a huge BB fan - I prefer faster reloads and faster speed on the whole - and I like being aggressive in them.  Along with that aggression, one must be very cognizant of your surroundings in a CL/CA.  Yolo'ing will get you deleted extremely fast, however if you play to the strengths of your ship you can be extremely good.  

 

IMO the number one determinant for good cruiser play is knowing when you can fire and when you cannot.  Multiple BB's have range on you, don't fire; enemies with the ability to cross fire on you from multiple directions, don't fire.  That is why some cruisers such as the Atago, Zao, Chapayev, and really any cruiser with a half decent detection range can be good if driven well.  

 

But I see countless people in cruisers drive broadside, oblivious to their being detected and get deleted by BB's or sniped by other cruisers raining down AP fire on them.  There is definitely a learning curve and they are much less forgiving than either BB's or DD's imo.  DD's have their own playstyle that needs to be learned, but imo it's not as punishing or at least I don't feel nearly as exposed in a DD than I do in my CL/CA's and for obvious reasons, they are much more stealthy and have means to easily disengage if needed.  

[YaBoyHankHill]

How is this poll related to the topic of your post, again?

 

1. Do you think all classes are balanced? Some think that cruisers are too weak to be effective, cvs were nerfed to the point of unplayability to most, all leading to the dd problem.

2. Do you think the classes need to be fixed? Do you think cruisers are the problem? DDs? Were CVs punished too much?

3. Does playing (X) need to be encouraged? Do you think the problem can be fixed by promoting (X)?

 

Its a bit awkward way to ask, but it fits with the topic.

[Arlios]

BB's were limited to pretty much one ship in the end, the Nagato was superior to the Colorado when it came to firepower and maneuverability, 

 

The Blyskawica was the go-to DD next to the mahan due to it having a firepower advantage over the other DD's, Russian and IJN DD's were harder to come across due to their disadvantage in brawls.

 

No pre-made divisons allowed made solo ranked a cancerous experience at times, as LittleWhiteMouse put it, she would encounter the same players who would drag down her team and cost her a star.

 

Cap exp gain was a guaranteed first place ticket giving a massive incentive to playing DD, even the second best would lose a star despite being within 100 pts of first place.

 

The ranger was completely outclassed by the Hiryu and Saipan

 

The Schors and Myoko were the go to cruisers because of the fact the Pensacola had a massive disadvantage when it came down to stealth. The AA advantage the pensacola offered was far outstripped by it's excessively poor detection range.

 

Overall, tier 7 has huge power gaps between factions, where as Tier 8 we start seeing a little more balance between all ships. 

[Edgecase]

Two factors. WoW suffers from a common problem in games with a speed tanking mechanic. Small, fast, fragile units end up being able to tank more damage than larger units because speed tanking functions by allowing the unit to avoid damage rather than absorb it. The other big thing is that fact that citadel damage means CAs hp pool can be depleted much more rapidly than the comparatively small DD hp pool. Those two factors result in DDs, which are supposed to be small and fragile, out-tanking the larger class that is intended to counter them.

 

I think the only real fix is an across the board reduction in citadel damage, or a revision of the citadel mechanic.

 

I would agree with you that CAs have the worst survivability in the game due to their lack of both damage mitigation (armor, citadelability, and HP) and damage avoidance (stealth and maneuverability). It's particularly bad at T7, where Pensacola and Yorck are floating turds. Atlanta and Shchors were highly situational, but marginally viable due to the DD-heavy meta; Indianapolis wanted so badly to be useful as a bow-on radar tank but failed; and Myoko, the only CA played with any regularity, was still mostly only capable of island humping with an occasional napalm salvo.

 

 

1. Do you think all classes are balanced? Some think that cruisers are too weak to be effective, cvs were nerfed to the point of unplayability to most, all leading to the dd problem.

2. Do you think the classes need to be fixed? Do you think cruisers are the problem? DDs? Were CVs punished too much?

3. Does playing (X) need to be encouraged? Do you think the problem can be fixed by promoting (X)?

 

Its a bit awkward way to ask, but it fits with the topic.

 

I guess I'm just very wary of "surveys" whose only purpose is to make it look like people agree with the author. My congressman does this all the time and it pisses me off to no end.

[Zhadum101]

Wait why do I feel like I just read this somewhere else...

 

<checks OPs topic history>

 

Oh wait...I did

 

http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/89100-its-not-that-bb-players-are-bad-people-they-are-terrible-people-jk-satire/page__p__2172861#entry2172861

 

 

I have to make a joke/complaint post before I go through the Vulcan ritual of Kolinahr and purge all emotion first.

 

Then I can suggest buffing/encouraging the class that is the paper/rock/scissor class that destroys my own class.

[Zhadum101]

 

I would agree with you that CAs have the worst survivability in the game due to their lack of both damage mitigation (armor, citadelability, and HP) and damage avoidance (stealth and maneuverability). It's particularly bad at T7, where Pensacola and Yorck are floating turds. Atlanta and Shchors were highly situational, but marginally viable due to the DD-heavy meta; Indianapolis wanted so badly to be useful as a bow-on radar tank but failed; and Myoko, the only CA played with any regularity, was still mostly only capable of island humping with an occasional napalm salvo.

 

 

I guess I'm just very wary of "surveys" whose only purpose is to make it look like people agree with the author. My congressman does this all the time and it pisses me off to no end.

 

 

Sorry I tried to make the survey questions as unbiased as possible....  It is very hard to do...

[HazardDrake]

I think the only real fix is an across the board reduction in citadel damage, or a revision of the citadel mechanic.

The best idea I have heard is to nerf the gun arcs. Guns get too accurate and too flat shooting while armor and manuverability stagnate or even regress. So a BB can literally control half the map because shooting is "Push button, receive bacon" level easy.

 

Everyone know what the Clevelands gun arcs are like? Ok. Make everything shoot like that or worse. Bam, engagement ranges go to a healthy 7-13k like in mid tiers instead of the 13-20+k like it is now. BB can still snipe, but they arn't gonna hit anything consistently with shell travel times that long.

[Flametz]

The best idea I have heard is to nerf the gun arcs. Guns get too accurate and too flat shooting while armor and manuverability stagnate or even regress. So a BB can literally control half the map because shooting is "Push button, receive bacon" level easy.

 

Everyone know what the Clevelands gun arcs are like? Ok. Make everything shoot like that or worse. Bam, engagement ranges go to a healthy 7-13k like in mid tiers instead of the 13-20+k like it is now. BB can still snipe, but they arn't gonna hit anything consistently with shell travel times that long.

 

That won't really solve the DD issue as USN DDs already get godawful arcs, which you can't really nerf any further. The result is DDs that are able to dodge more reliably while baiting CA/BB into closer torp spreads.

[pwadoc]

The best idea I have heard is to nerf the gun arcs. Guns get too accurate and too flat shooting while armor and manuverability stagnate or even regress. So a BB can literally control half the map because shooting is "Push button, receive bacon" level easy.

 

Everyone know what the Clevelands gun arcs are like? Ok. Make everything shoot like that or worse. Bam, engagement ranges go to a healthy 7-13k like in mid tiers instead of the 13-20+k like it is now. BB can still snipe, but they arn't gonna hit anything consistently with shell travel times that long.

 

Consider this, Nagato max AP damage is 12,600 from a 410mm gun. Myoko max AP damage is 4,700 from a 203mm gun. Why does the Nagato do 2-3x the damage of the Myoko? Would 2x not be enough? I actually think the correct number is < 2x, between 1.5x and 1.9x. If the Nagato did ~8k damage instead of 12k, T7 CAs could survive 4-5 citadels instead of 3 like they can now. A citadel would no longer wipe out a third of your hp in one shot.

 

WG should also consider reducing the size of the citadel, perhaps removing the areas under the turrets or shrinking those areas, so that shells would need to impact squarely on the center of the hull to score a hit, rather than catching the bow or stern with a stray shot like they can now.

[HazardDrake]

 

That won't really solve the DD issue as USN DDs already get godawful arcs, which you can't really nerf any further. The result is DDs that are able to dodge more reliably while baiting CA/BB into closer torp spreads.

USN DD arcs don't need to be nerfed. Torps are not the problem, as evidenced by the Shimakaze nerfs having zero effect on game meta.

[Flametz]

USN DD arcs don't need to be nerfed. Torps are not the problem, as evidenced by the Shimakaze nerfs having zero effect on game meta.

 

Still, all it would do is make DDs more dominant. They can dodge and weave easier due to nerfed shell arcs of other ship classes while their own ballistics aren't affected, making the "I RAIN FIRE AT MAX DISTANCE" thing all the more prevalent.

[aether_tech]

What went wrong? Blys happened.

 

Duno about 5-6 tier rank.

[Zhadum101]

What went wrong? Blys happened.

 

Duno about 5-6 tier rank.

 

But why were there no cruisers?

 

Are you saying they were afraid of the blyss? 

 

Blyss kills cruiser?

[aether_tech]

 

But why were there no cruisers?

 

Are you saying they were afraid of the blyss? 

 

Blyss kills cruiser?

Have you been in a cruiser on the receiving end of Blys AP? Or HE?

 

Ouchies, it burns/penetrates! ITS BURNING PENETRATION! The problem is, Destroyers are very good in ranked matches. And the Blys is arguably the best tier destroyer that can play last season of ranked. And no cruisers, because BB' alpha.

[Sakuzhi]

Have you been in a cruiser on the receiving end of Blys AP? Or HE?

 

Ouchies, it burns/penetrates! ITS BURNING PENETRATION! The problem is, Destroyers are very good in ranked matches. And the Blys is arguably the best tier destroyer that can play last season of ranked. And no cruisers, because BB' alpha.

 

Biggest problem with Ranked was the insane grinding of it.

 

That and the Tiering of ships being Cruisers without Radar was a mistake. Tier 7 is a bit of a bore all things considered

[Zhadum101]

Have you been in a cruiser on the receiving end of Blys AP? Or HE?

 

Ouchies, it burns/penetrates! ITS BURNING PENETRATION! The problem is, Destroyers are very good in ranked matches. And the Blys is arguably the best tier destroyer that can play last season of ranked. And no cruisers, because BB' alpha.

 

So no cruisers cause of BB alpha....

 

Cruiser are now low POP

 

DDs run rampant because no cruisers

 

BBs biggest pop group mad due to all DDs

 

BB had no prey and all predators

 

DD had all prey and no predators

 

End result we need more cruisers.......

 

 

How do we get more players to play cruisers?

 

 

[pwadoc]

Have you been in a cruiser on the receiving end of Blys AP? Or HE?

 

Ouchies, it burns/penetrates! ITS BURNING PENETRATION! The problem is, Destroyers are very good in ranked matches. And the Blys is arguably the best tier destroyer that can play last season of ranked. And no cruisers, because BB' alpha.

 

Blys AP has terrible penetration. Also has terrible damage against anything with armor and a low fire rate. The fact that it has a lot of guns and could invisafire is what made it usable against CAs.

[Sakuzhi]

 BBs biggest pop group mad due to all DDs

 

^DDs were bigger in Ranked.

 

 How do we get more players to play cruisers?

 Start with not having the Tier grouping being limited to the worst Cruiser tier in the entire god damn game.

 

T6 Cruisers fare better in a T6 and under match than a T7 Cruiser does in a T7 Match.

T8 Cruisers fare better in a T8 Match than a T7 Cruiser does in a T7 Match.

 

Etc, T7 is just a trashy tier for most classes involved.