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Lert

Lert's ADLA attempt: Dutch 1913 battleship proposal

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Hello and welcome to another thread in which I pretend to know what I'm talking about. And this time it's a doozy. I mentioned in my Project 1047 ADLA that there were two times the Dutch tried to get a proper capital ship built and both times it was interrupted by a world war breaking out. This happened for 1047 in 1939 / 1940, and the subject of this thread in 1914.

 

In 1912, after years of concern about the build-up of the Japanese navy and the withdrawal of British forces in the China station, the Dutch navy decided to significantly update the Dutch fleet in the area. To this purpose, we sent a design mandate to various British and German design bureaus, calling for a 22 knot, 8x 14" battleship with a 10" - 12" main belt. This 'Dutch 1913 battleship proposal' resulted in various designs from, among others, Vickers and Armstrong in Britain, and Blohm & Voss and Germania Werft in Germany. I will be briefly discussing most of these designs, but the majority of this thread will focus on what I consider the most likely candidate for actual construction, had the first world war not interfered. This would be the Germania Werft design. It is the one I could find the most detailed information on as well as the best pictures of. Not to mention it being the closest to the design mandate of all the designs.

 

Because this thread handles various different variations of the same ship, the format of this thread will be somewhat different than normal ADLAs.

 

A few notes:

 

- The decision to have a battleship designed was made in 1912, and most of these designs are from 1914. The project is known under the 'Dutch 1913 battleship proposal' however

- For the sake of cimplicity I will refer to these ships simply as '1913'.

 

First off, the Vickers designs.

 

MAb4UEE.jpg

One of the two Vickers designs. It is not known to me which of the two this schematic represents.

 

Vickers submitted four designs, two of which were declined by the Dutch (with 11" and 13.5" armaments) one because it was considered too weak and the other too expensive. Two designs remained in the running, known as Design 694 and Design 695.

 

694 would've featured:

 

Displacement: 25,250tons

Dimensions: 560ft wl (pp?) 594ft oa x 91ft x 28ft 6in

Machinery: 33,500shp, 22kts

Armour: ? (Likely 10")

Armament: 4x 2 356mm/45, 16x 1 152mm, 8x 1 76mm AA, 5x 533mm TT, submerged.

 

695 would've featured:

 

Displacement: 22,750tons

Dimensions: 525ft wl (pp?) 559ft oa x 90ft x 28ft 

Machinery: 33,500shp, 22kts

Armour: ? (Likely 10")

Armament: 4x 2 356mm/45, 16x 1 152mm, 8x 1 76mm AA, 5x 533mm TT, submerged.

 

Using dseehafer and fr05ty's handy hitpoint formulas these would've come out at 40700 and 37800 hitpoints respectively. This would put them at the low end of tier 4, though with firepower competitive at tier 5. After all, nobody is claiming Kongou is undergunned and she carries the same broadside, but with less secondaries.

 

I do not consider these designs to be very viable as their compactness, armament, tonnage and armor seem a little bit optimistic for me. Something that small and light, being that powerfully armed and carrying that much armor, while maintaining an engine powerful enough to propel them at that speed? I don't know. 694 comes closest to being viable IMO. To compare, Kongou carries more-or-less the same armament, though with less armor and at significantly higher tonnage.

 

Anyways, on to the Armstrong designs:

 

lfRmtwX.jpg

One of the Armstrong designs

 

Armstrong submitted two designs, 793 and 793A.

 

793:

 

Displacement: 25,600tons

Dimensions: 560ft wl (pp?) 597ft oa x 89ft x 28ft

Machinery: 22kts

Armour: 10in belt

Armament: 4x 2 356mm/45, 16x 1 152mm, 12x 1 76mm, 7x 533mm TT, submerged.

 

793A:

 

Displacement: 25,600tons

Dimensions: 580ft wl (pp?) 617ft oa x 89ft x 28ft

Machinery: 22kts

Armour: 10in belt

Armament: 4x 2 356mm/45, 16x 1 152mm, 12x 1 76mm, 6x 533mm TT, submerged.

 

These would boast 41100 hitpoints, once again putting them on par with the low end of tier 4 battleships, though once again with tier 5 firepower. These designs seem a little bit more viable to me than the Vickers ones. Were they to be put in the game I think they would be competitive ships with an emphasis on firepower over protection, and enjoy a decent amount of popularity among players.

 

But now it's time for the main attraction of this thread.

 

Germania Werft design 803:

 

VxS7GD5.png

Such an aesthetically pleasing, balanced design.

 

Tonnage:

 

24,605t normal, 26,851t full load.

 

This would give it 42600 hitpoints. Still a little bit on the low side at tier 4 compared to Ishizuchi and Myogi's 45700 and Wyoming's 43800, but competitive enough not to be a big problem.

 

Armor:

 

Belt: 150 - 250mm

Bulkheads: 200mm

Barbettes: 110 - 300mm

Torpedo bulkheads: 40mm

Deck: 25 - 50mm

Conning tower: 200 - 300mm

 

This is solid armor all around, lagging slightly behind Wyomings but leagues ahead of Myogi and Ishizuchi. At range she would be a tough nut to crack, only really showing weakness in a broadside. Still, she's not as tanky as Wyoming is.

 

Main armament:

 

4x 2 350mm /45

 

1913 would've used German designed and built 14" rifles, eight of them in two superfiring pairs of turrets afore and aft.

 

"But Lert," the savvy naval historian says, "Germany never had 14" guns in their navy."

 

"Ah, but," the even more savvy naval historian rebuts, "350mm /45's were designed for the canceled Mackensen class of battlecruisers."

 

Another option (that mr3awsome brought to my attention) is that 1913 would've used USA built 356mm guns from Bethlehem Steel.

 

These guns are very competitive with the 14" /45s on New York. Mackensen's guns threw a 600kg shell at 815 mps, and the Bethlehem Steel guns a 635 kg shell at 783 mps, compared to the American 14" gun which spews forth a 635kg shell at 792 mps. The Vickers 356mm /45 on Kongou launched a 635kg shell at 775 mps. All very similar in performance, with the German and American guns edging out the British designed weapons on Kongou in terms of kinetic energy. 1913 with Mackensen's guns would've had better ballistics than New York and Kongou with these guns, though slightly lower energy retention over distance, meaning that it would've had a flatter arc, but higher penetration-over-range fall-off than the American and British guns. The Bethlehem Steel guns would've been more on par with the guns on New York, firing the same weight shell at only a few mps less.

 

With her fire directors mounted on top of tall tripod masts, 1913 would boast decent to good firing range in WoWS.

 

This is competitive firepower at tier 4 and 5, with Kongou carrying a similar broadside weight and New York having two more barrels of very similar guns. Still, Kongou's lower broadside throw weight compared to New York is balanced out with amazing speed at the tier, something 1913 lacks. However, 1913 has a 33% higher broadside throw weight than Myogi, and one might argue that 8x 14" is better than 12x 12" of Wyoming, if you value straight punch over less punch but higher damage potential. Still, I think that even with an 8x 14" broadside, tier 4 is the best place for 1913.

 

Secondary armament:

 

16x 150mm

12x 75mm

 

This is an amazingly heavy secondary armament, beating even the Japanese Kongou out with 1 additional 150mm barrel per side. The 12x 75mm are likely divided up into anti-surface and anti-air guns, though I do not know in what proportions.

 

Anti-air:

 

?? x 75mm

 

Were Wargaming to put 1913 into the game, they'd have to invent an AA suite. Or not, if they want to put another Arkansas into the game. Honestly, with a solid armor package and rather powerful armament I think poor AA would be a decent way to balance 1913 for tier 4.

 

Speed:

 

22 knots

 

Managing to only pull 22 knots out of a triple-screw, 38000 shp propulsion package, 1913 is a hair faster than Wyoming, but still a slow brick.

 

Concealment:

 

Having rather tall tripod masts with their fire directors mounted on top of the observation platforms is a double edged sword. While it would provide good firing range for her main armament, it also makes her visible from rather far away. I would personally give 1913 a worse concealment than Wyoming more on par with Myogi. Say, 16km surface and 10km air detection radius?

 

Conclusion:

 

Pros:

 

- Solid all-round armor package

- Very good firepower, both primary and secondary

- Good range

 

Cons:

 

- Bad concealment

- Bad AA

- Slow

 

Final thoughts:

 

Being Dutch I have a fondness for Dutch ships. 1913 would in my opinion make a very competitive tier 4, and - depending on how comfortable WG makes her soft stats - possibly a fan favorite. Boasting very good firepower and a competitive armor package, she'd certainly dish out the pain while taking it on the chin, but being slow and having bad AA balances her out and prevents her from being overpowered.

 

That leaves only the matter of a name for this ship, since 1913 is just the project date. If you've read my Project 1047 ADLA you wouldn't be surprised to read that I would christen 1913, 'De Zeven Provincien'. That's a name the Dutch navy used for the grandest and mightiest of their ships, and I certainly believe that - given the time period - 1913 would count as both grand and mighty.

 

Let me know what you think?

 

HUGE shoutout to mr3awsome! Without his help in collecting pictures and data I could not have written this thread. If you liked this thread, please drop a +1 on him when you see him.

 

  • Cool 11

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Um...  What would you call her?

 

'De Zeven Provincien' ofcourse.

 

duh.

 

:hiding:

 

Fine, I'll add that to my OP.

  • Cool 5

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Sorry.  I knew the softball was there, I just had to lob it for you.

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Very nice write-up once again, +1

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"But Lert," the savvy naval historian says, "Germany never had 14" guns in their navy."

 

"Ah, but," the even more savvy naval historian rebuts, "356mm /45's were designed for the canceled Mackensen class of battlecruisers."

"Not quite" replies an even savvier naval historian, "the guns for the Mackensens were 350mm/45s. 

However the Salamis being built for Greece did have 14"/45s, so the guns would likely be those"

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Aaah, so right you are. Will fix. However, I doubt Germania Werft would've had access to Vickers guns, so 1913 would've likely used the 350mm /45s designed for Mackensen after all.

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Aaah, so right you are. Will fix. However, I doubt Germania Werft would've had access to Vickers guns, so 1913 would've likely used the 350mm /45s designed for Mackensen after all.

Those are Bethlehem Steel guns from the USA :hiding:

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Weren't they going to use American 14-inch on Salamis?

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Those are Bethlehem Steel guns from the USA :hiding:

 

TOO. MUCH. POLITICS.

 

My ADLA, I says 1913 should have german 350mm's. So there. You go write your own. Shoo.

 

J/K. In all seriousness, I picked the German 350s because that's what seemed most likely to me. Just for completion sake, I will add a piece about the Bethlehem Steel guns.

 

<Edit> Added, for completion sake. I still believe they would've used German guns though - but that's just personal opinion.

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That's a solid point. The Germans would likely prefer to sell German weapons if possible.

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Well, it's a funky ADLA alright! And I guess T4 would be fine with those 14" rifles, especially since dispersion is so bad you probably won't hit with them :S I'd be all for it being in the game, after all, more variety!!!

 

On the matter of aesthetics I must say I don't like the look, but then again I don't like the look of most ships from the 1910's which had that weird round bow, I like them pointy! Can we get the 1047 in the game before we get this one? 1047 is prettyyyyyy :D

 

Are there more Dutch ships for you to review?? I think we can make a Dutch Navy tree with all your ADLAs, even if we have to jump from a T4BB to a T5CL to a T6BC and so on... DUTCH NAVYYY

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Are there more Dutch ships for you to review?

 

That fit the game? I think only Java and Tromp. They're not particularly interesting.

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Those are Bethlehem Steel guns from the USA :hiding:

 

Did someone say Bethlahem Steel?

 

 Edmund_Fitzgerald,_1971,_3_of_4_(restore

 

sorry, had to

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I have to say, I like the appeal of a versatile ship armed with 8 14" with reasonable armour. A good all rounder, a little faster and I would be completely sold on getting the ship. 

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Nice write up about this Dutch BB, Lert! 
Thank you.

I hope in time this ship will be seen ingame. The names "De Zeven Provincien" and "Hollandia" are both good picks. If this ship would have been build, it surely would have taken the role as flagship. 

If the name of the ship in question, for example the 1047 or the 1913, do not have a given name, then perhaps a bit more playroom is created, to insert names that have some historic value to the Dutch naval history.

Like:
- Duyfken (know for its travels to Australie and New Zealand)
- De Dolfyn (kettle-war)
- Batavia
- ...

The Netherlands navy re-used names, yes. But they do create new ones as well. Like the Roofdier class of ships, right?

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Moar Botes! is always good. Well, except certain French Contre-torpellieurs...

My limited study of Dutch 20th century naval affairs seems to have a recurring theme: Stingy guy in a jewelry store. They ask for all these wonderful studies and designs, and then go the El Cheapo route.

That's how they wound up with such weak cruisers for the East Indies.

Either the Vickers or Germaniawerft designs you refer to would be pretty effective ships.

OTOH, I dread what kind of balancing magic the devs would have to do to make De Ruyter worthwhile. Maybe gin up one of the earlier designs before they went cheap on tonnage and armament?

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I wouldn't buy it. 

Because I don't have $$ for Premium ships that cost more than $5.

But I'd want it.  I got no problem with slow bricks at low tiers.

 

 

Edited by iDuckman

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