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Canadian_Reaper

Is Higher tier gameplay all about camping?

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I don't mean this in a negative way- I am pretty much totally unfamiliar with higher tier stuff, but I've noticed the few T9 games I get in My Sims, or the T8 games I get in the Molotov largely involve one team's BB's and a substantial amount of their cruisers sitting in one spot on the map. (Sometimes both teams) whereas my lower tier battles are usually mass melees.

 

Just curious if this is a trend, or just something I happened to have happen randomly (I really have not had that many t8 or t9 games)

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I don't mean this in a negative way- I am pretty much totally unfamiliar with higher tier stuff, but I've noticed the few T9 games I get in My Sims, or the T8 games I get in the Molotov largely involve one team's BB's and a substantial amount of their cruisers sitting in one spot on the map. (Sometimes both teams) whereas my lower tier battles are usually mass melees.

 

Just curious if this is a trend, or just something I happened to have happen randomly (I really have not had that many t8 or t9 games)

 

It is, unfortunately, part of playing on the NA server (it may be different in other regions). I've had my share of snore-fests in my Tier VII-VIII boats, which has quite honestly put a damper on any desire to progress to Tier IX and beyond...for now, anyway. The causes are many and varied, but essentially it boils down to a lot of high-tier sniping and death to the first person who blinks.

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Screw camping. It's boring. Just push in or die trying. Sometimes you get lucky and run into a few enemies with the same idea.

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The potato meta has spread all the way down to middle tiers now. Let's just get something straight right away:

 

It's not because of repair costs -- you have to pay a lot of real money to get to T10 so cost isn't a major concern.

 

It's not because of long range sniping; while aimbot are a big problem in high tier, still the ranges involved means that dodging isn't hard.

 

It's not because of torp walls as those have been nerfed into the ground.

 

It is simply cowardice. No one wants to go first because they will get shot at first. That's all.

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I try to be as aggressive as I can in high tier games, but yeah most of the time you're forced to hang in the back. I think the best thing to do would be to hard cap BB ranges to 21-23 kilometers or something.

Edited by DokturProfesur

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It may have something to do with the maps be much larger along with the gun having a lot more range.

Normally half the team sits back while the other half rushes.   :honoring:

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Here's the general gist of everything. Guns get more powerful per tier, yet the defensive options of armor and mobility regress every tier you go up.

 

It's evident in each set of tiers.

 

1-3: What's a citadel?

4-6: Broadside = pain. Angle/evasive = 8-12km decent engagement range.

7: <15km you risk getting citadeled on any hit or burned to a crisp. Either way you're dead in 5 minutes if you remain lit for that long in this range. But you're lucky Colorado and Nagato do not have the guns per salvo to delete you faster

 

8-10: You will easily get deleted if you are lit for a prolonged (~3 minutes) period of time from up to 17 km away. Ranges where enemies are a legitimate threat balloon from ~12km in 4-6 to 17km, which is nearly half the map. Nearly half the map = nearly half the enemy team potentially focusing you down. Want to wander around in 15km of the enemy when you can't bounce/dodge anything with lower agility/armor and everyone only gets more accurate? Yeah of course you'd camp.

 

At least in mid tiers ships need to commit harder to one side of the map to have a say in it. But a legitimate threat 17+km away? That can easily contain 4 ships who are a legitimate threat to you. Camp away, really.

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I try to be as aggressive as I can in high tier games, but yeah most of the time you're forced to hang in the back. I think the best thing to do would be to hard cap BB ranges to 21-23 kilometers or something.

 

 

Actually, one thing that I think would help is a greater use of (additional) weather effects.  For example, have a medium storm that limits visibility to about 15 km and a heavy storm that limits visibility to about 10 km, in addition to the Cyclone.  (Adjust those range numbers as necessary.)  Also have these weather effects be for the entire battle, not just during a passing squall.  The point here is that they'd effectively limit gun ranges without actually having to nerf them directly.

 

I might also suggest eliminating all of the upgrade modules that improve range.  Let the range that the ships have be their ranges.  Also consider eliminating the spotting plane and its increased range effect.  Possibly replacing it with a scouting plane that flies around the map detecting stuff for you.  (I'm unsure about this scout plane thing.  If it's uncontrolled like the cat fighter, it could be useless at times if it's flying behind your fleet,.  And if it's controlled, it could be OP and the bane of all DD's, or anyone else trying to use concealment based long ranged invisi-fire.)

 

Anyways, just some thoughts.  

 

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Here's the general gist of everything. Guns get more powerful per tier, yet the defensive options of armor and mobility regress every tier you go up.

 

It's evident in each set of tiers.

 

1-3: What's a citadel?

4-6: Broadside = pain. Angle/evasive = 8-12km decent engagement range.

7: <15km you risk getting citadeled on any hit or burned to a crisp. Either way you're dead in 5 minutes if you remain lit for that long in this range. But you're lucky Colorado and Nagato do not have the guns per salvo to delete you faster

 

8-10: You will easily get deleted if you are lit for a prolonged (~3 minutes) period of time from up to 17 km away. Ranges where enemies are a legitimate threat balloon from ~12km in 4-6 to 17km, which is nearly half the map. Nearly half the map = nearly half the enemy team potentially focusing you down. Want to wander around in 15km of the enemy when you can't bounce/dodge anything with lower agility/armor and everyone only gets more accurate? Yeah of course you'd camp.

 

At least in mid tiers ships need to commit harder to one side of the map to have a say in it. But a legitimate threat 17+km away? That can easily contain 4 ships who are a legitimate threat to you. Camp away, really.

 

Well that's depressing. Still T5 but I got matched to T7 sometimes and it already feels distinctively more "sniper-y" and much less enjoyable...

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pvp is an arty fest. Come play pve where you can play aggressively, unless you're some cv or bb potato that likes to snipe in back.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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It's not all about camping, but it does help to bring a tent.
Edited by Terran_Crusader

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When I get sick of the campfest known as T8/9/10 games, I bust out a T6 or T7 ship.

Currently, this is Molotov.

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Well that's depressing. Still T5 but I got matched to T7 sometimes and it already feels distinctively more "sniper-y" and much less enjoyable...

 

Sums up the introduction of 16" guns, pretty much.

 

They're more accurate than 14" guns and they rarely care about how well you angle. That Fuso/New Mexico you could have been angling/dodging 12km away? Every shell Nagato/Colorado lands on you is a genuine citadel risk, and when shooting each other likely meatshots (full penetration 33% damage.) Colorado in particular.

 

This alone balloons cruisers from operating as close as in mid tiers. The emphasis goes from "dodge most of the salvo,angle the rest" into "dodge everything," which occurs much further away than the ~12km of mid tiers. Only saving grace is at this tier Nagato and Colorado don't have that many shells per salvo to dodge, but you can see already how most tier 7s play much further back than say, Phoenix/Cleveland.

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Incoming onslaught of people saying "yes, it's all about camping because everyone at that tier are campers except *me*"....

 

OP, no, Tier 8,9,10 is not all about camping. That old belief stated a long time ago when the repair cost was a lot higher than it is now and people want to hang on to it for some reason.... (more dots here)

 

Yes, it's expensive to play at those tiers, even at the moment, however if you perform well, you can still yield a good profit and without a premium account. Also you should take note, there is a difference between charging straight out like you're wearing your pants on your head into the enemy blindly (some do this and expect this as the only valid tactic with anything less as being "camping") and playing smartly. Playing smartly, a person uses time to assess the battle as it unfolds a bit. If that means holding back for 2 minutes, then that's what it takes.

 

To those that disagree with this, well tough. lol I'm a bit more aggressive in my BB's and even my Dimi than I should be as I will cap a CP where most won't, but I still get yelled at by dead people.... That in and of itself should tell people something... Use that noodle a bit and take advantage of the 20 minute match. For god sake, lol, it doesn't have to be over in 3 minutes. I guess do things right and taking your time comes with age. :rolleyes:

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I might also suggest eliminating all of the upgrade modules that improve range.

 

 

I'm sorry man but that's just plain wrong, until NC USN battleships rely on that range module.

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I just played a game where my team just stopped at about 16 KM.

 

So yeah lots of fun at tier 8.

 

15km is about the limit for cruisers to not die against 15"+ gun fire, because of lolpen.

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Basically going back to the meta change from dodging most and bouncing the rest to dodging everything. All because 16" guns as mentioned lolpen CAs for the most part.

 

At least in tiers 6 and below guns smaller than 15" do not citadel you if you are angled and at mid range. By mid range I mean 10-15km. If you are angled with the bow citadels are a remote occurance. Almost non-existent at 10km+ ranges, even. Bow on though. I've seen stern hits punch right into citadels.

 

Also most gunboats at those tiers (barring Russian or German Cruisers) either have

 

1. limited range (Omaha, Cleveland)

2. low DPM (Furutaka, Aoba)

3. Bad HE properties (German Cruisers)

 

Basically speaking most cruisers are not a DPM threat to other ships until well into 11km, and only then if you show broadsides the entire time.

 

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I just played a game where my team just stopped at about 16 KM.

 

So yeah lots of fun at tier 8.

 

15km is about the limit for cruisers to not die against 15"+ gun fire, because of lolpen.

 

Then WG can rebalance them without having to use upgrade modules.  The point is that you can't have your cake and eat it too, as the old saying goes.   If one thinks that excessive range is a part of the problem of the high tier paradigm, then you have to address the issue of excessive range.

 

 

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High Tier definitely requires a different mind set.  I will say, it often requires a "longer range" view of the game.  And "longer range" often equates to what one  might call "camping".  It also requires experience on what works.  I've failed many times in high tier matches, but I often learn from my failures.  Things that work in the mid tiers often don't map to the high tiers.  So you gotta learn the differences, then think differently.

 

In some ways, high tier starts like a boxing match.  Gotta dance around a bit.   Jab.  Deflect.  Then if you get a good punch in, go for the kill.  In many mid tier matches...you can just go all in with a solid push and win. 

 

 

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Lately in tiers 9-10, I've found less people sitting back and more people pushing than used to. Problem is though, both teams seem to be pushing aggressively on opposite sides of the map in giant lemming trains. So what I've been seeing is more teams aggressively going in giant circles in battle lines and leaving the center cap open and firing at one another while letting the DDs Duke it out for the center cap. Then once the center cap is taken or lost, the teams will either push towards the center to hold the cap and form their defensive line there, or aggressively push that center cap to retake so that they don't lose on points. But I've really been seeing a whole lot more up close and personal brawling in higher tiers than used to and it's quite refreshing.

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It's all about camping BBs. They're all floating tent cities.

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