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Aduial

Tier 5 CVs

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Tier 5 for CVs is really, really messed up. For IJN, you have the Zuiho. Great bombers, but only has one fighter squad. For USN, you have the Bogue, which gets 2 good squadrons of fighters, but only gets one dive bomber squad (or one fighter squad and 2 DBs, which no one uses).

Now, the problem with this is that there's no way to balance those two ships. Whenever a Zuiho and a Bogue are placed in a battle together, both the Zuiho and Bogue will deal very little damage, and the Zuiho will end up losing all of his planes. It's a lose-lose situation. The Bogue shuts down the Zuiho with two fighter squadrons, but deals almost no damage because all he has is a dive bomber squadron. This problem happens at all tiers with AS vs Stike CVs, but Bogue and Zuiho are the worst case of this problem. Zuiho fighters cannot do anything to Bogue fighters (even strafing is useless, because the second squad will counter-strafe you), and Bogue does almost no damage whatsoever thanks to the way its planes are set up. 

This problem can be fixed by giving the Bogue more damage potential, while nerfing its fighters slightly. That way both of them will be able to function more effectively. 

Any thoughts on this topic?

Edit*: Just as a note, i'm not suggesting that the Bogue should be nerfed, In my opinion, what i suggested was more of a buff than a nerf. The Bogue's fighters should still be able to take out Zuiho fighters, but it would now be doing more damage as well. 

Edited by Aduial
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Sure... the Bogue captain can choose the stock loadout - 1 squadron of fighters, and 1 squadron of torp planes.  And the Zuiho captain can choose not to try to push his planes through the 2 fighters of the AS Bogue, and attack other targets.

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Sure... the Bogue captain can choose the stock loadout - 1 squadron of fighters, and 1 squadron of torp planes.  And the Zuiho captain can choose not to try to push his planes through the 2 fighters of the AS Bogue, and attack other targets.

 

You realize that the Bogue intercept your planes before they get there? I've tried the tactic mentioned above, but anyone can predict where your planes are coming from. Also Bogue's stock loadout is almost unusable, because now you only have 1 squadron of fighters and only one squadron of TBs. 99% of the Bogues i've faced ran the AS loadout. 

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The USN CVs are all at the bottom of all ships in their tier, whereas IJN CVs are at the top, the last thing the USN is a further gimp of effectiveness.

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You realize that the Bogue intercept your planes before they get there? I've tried the tactic mentioned above, but anyone can predict where your planes are coming from. Also Bogue's stock loadout is almost unusable, because now you only have 1 squadron of fighters and only one squadron of TBs. 99% of the Bogues i've faced ran the AS loadout. 

 

Seeing as the Zuiho has one of the better Win Rates on all regions and is a damage machine I think you're probably doing it wrong. Bogues go fighter load because they have meh planes and therefore meh damage.

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The USN CVs are all at the bottom of all ships in their tier, whereas IJN CVs are at the top, the last thing the USN is a further gimp of effectiveness.

 

I'm not saying gimp/nerf them. I'm saying give the Bogue a slightly better damage potential, while giving its fighters a slight nerf. It would actually benefit it in the end. 

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I'm not saying gimp/nerf them. I'm saying give the Bogue a slightly better damage potential, while giving its fighters a slight nerf. It would actually benefit it in the end. 

 

You can't say that though. They're specifically going into a fighter load out. Their 1-1-1 is mediocre at best and leaves you and your team open to the cross torp mechanics of the Zuiho. My first game in the Zuiho was against a fighter spec Bogue. I did 115,000 damage.

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Tier 5 for CVs is really, really messed up. For IJN, you have the Zuiho. Great bombers, but only has one fighter squad. For USN, you have the Bogue, which gets 2 good squadrons of fighters, but only gets one dive bomber squad (or one fighter squad and 2 DBs, which no one uses).

Now, the problem with this is that there's no way to balance those two ships. Whenever a Zuiho and a Bogue are placed in a battle together, both the Zuiho and Bogue will deal very little damage, and the Zuiho will end up losing all of his planes. It's a lose-lose situation. The Bogue shuts down the Zuiho with two fighter squadrons, but deals almost no damage because all he has is a dive bomber squadron. This problem happens at all tiers with AS vs Stike CVs, but Bogue and Zuiho are the worst case of this problem. Zuiho fighters cannot do anything to Bogue fighters (even strafing is useless, because the second squad will counter-strafe you), and Bogue does almost no damage whatsoever thanks to the way its planes are set up. 

This problem can be fixed by giving the Bogue more damage potential, while nerfing its fighters slightly. That way both of them will be able to function more effectively. 

Any thoughts on this topic?

Edit*: Just as a note, i'm not suggesting that the Bogue should be nerfed, In my opinion, what i suggested was more of a buff than a nerf. The Bogue's fighters should still be able to take out Zuiho fighters, but it would now be doing more damage as well. 

 

What they really need to do is -

 

1. Overhaul fighters to be closer to a 50/50 win chance (even if USN still gets the edge it needs to not be the stomp it is now)

2. full overhaul of what carriers can carry in terms of plane types to compensate for changes to fighters (so IJN doesn't own the skies the way USN does now, and increase damage ability to for USN by having more/better options or a mixed package, not the pure AS or pure attack S we currently have)

3. Reduce strafing to a minor at best damage increase and make it a debuff to be used to screw up the accuracy of grouped bombers, not auto delete airplanes

 

Tier 5 is far from the only tier with an issue, CV's need an all out rebalance.

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They really need to just do away with the different squadron sizes altogether. This is what makes balancing USN vs IJN vs AA a nightmare that almost always results in one being massively UP or one being massively OP and most everyone angry.

 

Here's a thought: 6 plane squads are supposed to reduce micro management and make learning how to carrier easier. They also represent a "double vic: flying formation (an early notion with 1 lead pilot and 2 wingmen) . By ~1942, pretty much every participant in WW2 had ditched the "victory" formation for the "finger four" (a pair of lead/wingman teams and what the IJN currently runs). So, let's re-balance CVs by letting both lines start with the 6 plane "double vic" and around tier 6 or 7 (once players have adapted to managing smaller numbers of squads) switch both lines to more 4 plane squads. National flavor can be maintained with varying elements such # of TBs vs DBs, TB/DB "spread", and the various speed/ammo/hitpoint  numbers of the fighters.

 

As for Bogue specifically, I ground my way through it by maxing the carrier's own AA guns (took the range upgrade on the ship and put BFT on my captain) and running strike the whole way (2 DBs, 1 TB, no fighters). My win rate was phenomenal, I just had to be smart enough to keep my strike planes away from enemy fighters. If I could lure red fighters back to my CV, with maxxed AA I would shred them. I also looked forward to being "sniped" as I could usually chew through all of an opponents strike planes and survive despite their best efforts. 

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You realize that the Bogue intercept your planes before they get there? I've tried the tactic mentioned above, but anyone can predict where your planes are coming from. Also Bogue's stock loadout is almost unusable, because now you only have 1 squadron of fighters and only one squadron of TBs. 99% of the Bogues i've faced ran the AS loadout. 

 

Partially agree, but 'almost' isn't the same as 'it is...'

 

Seeing as the Zuiho has one of the better Win Rates on all regions and is a damage machine I think you're probably doing it wrong. Bogues go fighter load because they have meh planes and therefore meh damage.

 

Guess no one ever told me how bad Bogue's strike loadout was... Only a few percentage points higher winrate than average, but 10k more average damage, and only 4 a/c off on average plane frags... with just tail-gunners and flak...

 

JiJGaT.png

 

That '35'  max a/c destroyed? That was a 'Clear Sky,' with tail gunners and flak.

 

I admit I haven't run Zuiho, but just Hosho and Ryujo.

 

Edited by Estimated_Prophet

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A Zuiho getting shut down by an AS Bogue is one of three things: a newbie, stupid, or very unlucky.

 

Any Bogue worth his salt isn't going to use the AS loadout.  Either stock for the torpedo bomber and bigger reserves, or strike for maximum damage potential.

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A Zuiho getting shut down by an AS Bogue is one of three things: a newbie, stupid, or very unlucky.

 

Any Bogue worth his salt isn't going to use the AS loadout.  Either stock for the torpedo bomber and bigger reserves, or strike for maximum damage potential.

 

I have to disagree with you there. You are implying that any person playing an AS Bogue doesn't know how to play the loadout. There are competent AS Bogue players who know how to shut down a Zuiho or even both carriers in a 2 vs 2 battle.

 

As for what loadout a person uses with their Bogue, it really depends on your play style. I play USN CVs and almost always AS loadout. My highest plane kills in a Bogue was 51 plane kills in a game with 2 CVs on each side and shut down both of the enemy CVs.

 

P.S. My highest plane kills with Independence is 59 and Ranger is 73.

Edited by Lightninger

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As for what loadout a person uses with their Bogue, it really depends on your play style. I play USN CVs and almost always AS loadout. My highest plane kills in a Bogue was 51 plane kills in a game with 2 CVs on each side and shut down both of the enemy CVs.

 

P.S. My highest plane kills with Independence is 59 and Ranger is 73.

 

...and my biggest enemy when I run my Bogue, someone who actually knows what they're doing with AS, and isn't just being lazy...

 

I don't know how many times I've been in my coal-barge Bogue, up-tiered by one or two levels in some mixed-tier CV battle, and yet I'm the one who survives the longest of the allied CVs; constantly moving, spotting, attacking and supporting my team to the best of my abilities; while the 'better' CV hides behind some rock and gets sniped or ('show me on the doll where the bad DD touched you') by some enemy DD...

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If only we could have fighters and bombers in decent quantity without using the lame stock loadouts. For instance instead of 2 DB, 1TB on the Bogue, Wargaming would be kind enough to give us a squadron of fighters.....

Ah well, we can always hope.

 

Happy hunting, Captains.

 

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IMO Zuihou and Bogue are the best balanced carriers vs each other and vs different loadouts. I'm going to be talking from the Bogue's perspective here and its different approaches based on loadouts.

(Zuihou is assumed to be running the upgraded flight deck because it is almost a straight upgrade.)

 

[1/1/0] Stock Bogue

VS Zuihou: Assuming no strafes, I will win all fighter exchanges but will not strike as hard with the single torp group compared to his 2 and a dive group for kicks. However, a correctly placed spread will ruin the day of any cruiser or battleship just the same. Two full fighter trades guarantees me air control and free kills if he sends any more strikes out.

VS Stock Bogue: Like fighting the Zuihou but I actually have to be active with my fighters and get strafes off in order to get control.

VS Strike Bogue: He has almost twice my damage capabilities, double stacked dive groups are surprisingly potent. But I focus his torp bombers first since he only gets 9 of them compared to 21 dives. It's a surprisingly difficult matchup if he can get around my single fighter group.

VS AS Bogue: Depends on how he plays. If he focuses both of his fighters on mine then I play like a Zuihou and sacrifice them to get torp strikes. If he tries to uses one group to engage my fighters and the other group to go after my torps, then it's up to me to win the 1v1 fighter battle and then use the remainder as sacrifice to get the torp strike off. Very difficult matchup if the enemy is skilled, but most using this loadout are not. Also if I get even one torp spread onto an enemy ship then I have outdamaged him for the entire game. His single dive group doesn't matter at all.

 

[2/0/1] AS (Air Superiority) Bogue

VS Zuihou, Stock Bogue, Strike Bogue: A tough job with low pay. I absolutely cannot afford to get my fighters locked with enemy fighters or dive bombers, lest they get strikes off behind my back. I have to be on top of my strafing game. Air control and spotting are inevitably mine, but if the team does not make use of it then I am powerless. If the enemy carrier sinks even 1 ship (or at least greatly contributes to its death) before I wipe his planes, then I have failed my job and he gets mad dosh. I get a dive group out of pity.

VS AS Bogue: The most boring matchup. Outside of spotting, it doesn't matter who wins since neither side is contributing to the match outcome and neither side is geting paid.

 

[0/1/2] Strike Bogue

VS Zuihou: I lay down the hurt about as equally as he does, but while he has to generally coordinate a single strike I can threaten two places with the single torp groups at one and the two stacked dive groups on the other. They both hit pretty hard and he has to choose which one to stop. I have to "subtly" coax him into attacking one of the dive groups since I can't replace torps easily. I cannot afford to be strafed.

VS Stock Bogue: Similar the above, except I do more damage relative to him in exchange to being more vulnerable to his planes.

VS AS Bogue: Basically playing a Zuihou but with no fighters to buy time. I have to prioritize the safety and usage of my torp bombers while at best buying time with a single dive group. The definition of risk-reward play, since I can deal up to 3-4 times as much damage as he can and receive similarly better pay. The Bogue has pretty decent AA when built for it, using it to shoo away fighters is a valid tactic (also useful in the other matchups but I consider it almost necessary in this one).

VS Strike Bogue: Rarely happens but it's pretty funny. Our bombers can meet up and exchange pleasantries on their way to their respective targets. A straight damage race to see who can beat down ships faster.

 

 

Overall I prefer running stock, but strike is quite dangerous in the right hands. AS at best disables the enemy CV and then leaves the match into my team's hands, their slippery slippery hands.

Edited by Flashtirade
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VS Strike Bogue: Rarely happens but it's pretty funny. Our bombers can meet up and exchange pleasantries on their way to their respective targets. A straight damage race to see who can beat down ships faster.

 

Overall I prefer running stock, but strike is quite dangerous in the right hands. AS at best disables the enemy CV and then leaves the match into my team's hands, their slippery slippery hands.

 

I run Strike Bogue a lot, (learned how to play CVs during the original 300k + 300k CV Challenge,) and your last two lines are so true...

 

"Guys! I got another ship! Guys? um... Guys...?"

 

Looks around and finds a bunch or red-ships with bandages on their airstrike wounds giving my Bogue the stink-eye... Image fades to black, and the sounds of lots of guns and explosions...

 

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I'm extremely happy to see Air Superiority USN CVs on the enemy team.  Because I can rest assured knowing they can hardly do damage to the ships of my team.  A Strike USN CV has the potential to carry a team.  An A/S USN CV can only watch as his team gets steamrolled because he lacks any meaningful capability to inflict ship damage.

 

Between Zuiho and Bogue, Zuiho is doing quite better.  It's not even a contest.

 

The one big caveat to Zuiho's success is that the player must really start learning how to be a Strike CV in the face of Air Superiority CVs.  That, IMO, is the greatest art to master for a CV player.  You have to be aggressive, constantly on the attack.  You have to attack at different parts of the map.  There's more but this thought exemplifies what a Strike CV must think in dealing with an Air Superiority CV:

 

The A/S CV only has so many Fighter Squadrons.  3 for IJN, 2 for USN.  Yet there's all these players and a big map.  Those Fighters can only be at so many places at any given time, especially once the teams fragment into more groups.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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That picture is why I advocate for stock Bogue. It can do so much more than be a fighter mule.

 

MLXQDiH.png

 

Maybe if there was ranked T5 then it would be meta, but otherwise AS actually more detrimental to the team unless it shuts down every single strike without fail.

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That picture is why I advocate for stock Bogue. It can do so much more than be a fighter mule.

 

MLXQDiH.png

 

Maybe if there was ranked T5 then it would be meta, but otherwise AS actually more detrimental to the team unless it shuts down every single strike without fail.

 

Some people say you should go Strike since you can cause a reasonable amount of damage. Bogue is a rather horrid ship though :angry: Only thing it has over the Langley is it's AA and maybe the fact that you can change your loadout.

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That picture is why I advocate for stock Bogue. It can do so much more than be a fighter mule.

 

MLXQDiH.png

 

Maybe if there was ranked T5 then it would be meta, but otherwise AS actually more detrimental to the team unless it shuts down every single strike without fail.

 

The fun fact is you can shut down every airstrike, score lots of aircraft kills, and be poorly rewarded.  If you want rewards, you need to do damage.  Shoot down 40+, the game doesn't care and will reward you poorly if you don't do damage.  USN CVs pay horrible prices if they go Fighter or Strike Spec.  Go Fighter, you cut your balls off on being able to do ship damage, i.e. the stuff the game rewards you for.  Go Strike, you are left with no fighters.  Even an equivalent tiered IJN Strike CV has at least 1 Fighter Squadron to torment you by making it its life's work to attack your single source of your best damage:  Your ONE TB squadron.

 

But for Bogue?  I seriously despise her spec.  I'll agree with you that Standard is more balanced and ideal with what she's fighting.  Because Fighter Spec Bogue is so irrelevant in dealing damage.

 

I'm sure you've experienced a match where a Fighter Spec USN CV sweeps the skies of enemy air, but can only watch in complete helplessness the team getting rolled because it lacks a decent means to deal damage.

 

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That was me when I tried AS. Never again, I like having some control over my fate.

 

If you're against a CV with only one fighter group, having no fighters is not as big a disadvantage as it seems. Stacked dive bombers can actually do significant damage without torpedo followup (remember bombs do 7500 damage max) and your chances at hitting a DD manually increase too. If the enemy fighter squad is only focused on your torps, just don't put them in danger and just slam ships on the other side of the map. Strike at whatever side the fighter group isn't at, and if you spot him sticking to one area then you simply send everything to the other front.

 

The only caveat is that you must never be strafed or else this plan falls apart. Strafing is already devastating regardless of loadout, but here it will really put you on the back foot.

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Dude please stop. Take it from a solid CV player that IJN CVs are favored at every tier and need to be balance. Moreover, it gets worse at every tier you move up to. I'm currently on the Essex and the Taiho is op. I've heard the Midway is a joke compared to the Tier X IJN DD

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I'm not saying the Bogue isn't generally worse than the Zuihou, because it is. I'm just saying that it's not a complete write-off and that in certain situations it can shine.

 

The Independence is where things go really south on paper for USN CVs, and I'm struggling through it now to confirm that statement. Seriously, I ripped 21 fighters off of an AS Ryuujou and I still lost the air battle because

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Edited by Flashtirade

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A Zuiho getting shut down by an AS Bogue is one of three things: a newbie, stupid, or very unlucky.

 

Any Bogue worth his salt isn't going to use the AS loadout.  Either stock for the torpedo bomber and bigger reserves, or strike for maximum damage potential.

 

Most Bogues I've encountered utilize the double fighter loadout. And it seems you must be preettty good because it isn't difficult to shut down a zuiho with 2 6 plane squads against a 1 4 plane squad.

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