147 [-K-] SeaAdmiral Members 484 posts 5,728 battles Report post #1 Posted June 6, 2016 (edited) All credit to Vaexa, spending a lot of time datamining, formatting, and double checking these values, helping us understand the game more. All data is strictly for 0.5.6.1 live, and may be outdated when other patches hit. Quick reminder: Autobounce angle: Angle of impact where your shells forgo penetration checks and bounce. Shells can bounce at angles shallower than this, but at this angle or steeper the shell will always bounce. Only USN 8 inch appears to have nonstandard autobounce angles. Normalization: Shaves off degrees from angle of impact in penetration checks. 30 degree impact with 5 degree normalization calculates the impact angle as 25. Unsure if this applies before or after autobounce, more info in that thread. If it is applied before, a "perfect" 30 degree angle vs an enemy ship will be imperfect due to normalization. USN Cruiser shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 5"/127mm Mark 15 60.0 8.0 Erie 5"/127mm AP 60.0 8.0 Chester 5"/127mm Mark 38 60.0 8.0 Atlanta 6"/152mm Mark 28 60.0 8.0 Erie 6"/152mm AP, 105lbs 60.0 8.0 Chester, Albany, St. Louis, Phoenix (stock) 6"/152mm Mark 27, mod. 5 60.0 8.0 Phoenix (top), Omaha, Marblehead 6"/152mm Mark 35 60.0 6.8 Cleveland 8"/203mm AP, 260lbs 67.5 5.6 Pensacola (stock) 8"/203mm Mark 19 67.5 5.6 Pensacola (top), Indianapolis, New Orleans, Baltimore (stock) 8"/203mm Mark 21 67.5 4.4 Baltimore (top), Des Moines, Buffalo Battleship shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 12"/305mm AP 60.0 4.0 South Carolina 12"/305mm AP, 870lbs 60.0 5.0 Wyoming (stock), Arkansas Beta 12"/305mm Mark 15 60.0 5.0 Wyoming (top) 14"/356mm AP, 1400lbs 60.0 5.0 New York (stock), New Mexico (stock) 14"/356mm Mark 16 60.0 5.0 New York (top), New Mexico (top) 14"/356mm Mark 16 (Texas) 60.0 5.0 Texas 16"/406mm Mark 3 60.0 4.0 Colorado (stock) 16"/406mm Mark 5 60.0 4.0 Colorado (top) 16"/406mm Mark 8 (NC) 60.0 6.8 North Carolina 16"/406mm Mark 8 60.0 6.8 Iowa, Montana Destroyer shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 3"/76mm Mark 29 60.0 8.0 Smith 4"/102mm Mark 16 60.0 8.0 Sampson, Wickes, Clemson 5"/127mm Mark 15 60.0 8.0 Nicholas (stock) 5"/127mm Mark 38 60.0 8.0 Nicholas (top), Farragut, Mahan, Sims, Benson, Fletcher, Gearing IJN Cruiser shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 4.7"/120mm Type 0 60.0 8.0 Hashidate 5.5"/140mm Common 60.0 8.0 Tenryu, Kuma, Katori, Yubari, Iwaki Alpha, Kitakami 6"/152mm Type 4 60.0 8.0 Chikuma 6.1"/155mm Type 91 60.0 8.6 Mogami (stock) 7.9"/200mm Type 5 60.0 8.2 Furutaka (stock) 8"/203mm Type 91 60.0 8.2 Furutaka (top), Aoba, Myoko, Tone, Mogami (top),Atago, Ibuki 8"/203mm Type 92 60.0 8.2 Zao Battleship shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 12"/305mm AP, 850lbs 60.0 8.0 Mikasa 12"/305mm 41st Year Type 60.0 8.0 Kawachi (stock) 12"/305mm 41st Year Type 60.0 8.0 Kawachi (top) 12"/305mm Mark VI 60.0 8.0 Ishizuchi 14"/356mm Type 5 60.0 5.25 Myogi, Kongo (stock) 14"/356mm Type 91 60.0 5.25 Kongo (top), Fuso 16.1"/410mm Type 88 60.0 5.05 Nagato (stock), Amagi (stock) 16.1"/410mm Type 91 60.0 5.05 Nagato (top), Amagi (top) 16.1"/410mm Type 91 (Izumo) 60.0 5.05 Izumo 18.1"/460mm Type 91 60.0 5.25 Yamato Battleship secondary shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 5.5"/140mm Type 2 60.0 8.0 Nagato, Amagi 6"/152mm Type 4 60.0 8.0 Myogi, Ishizuchi, Kongo, Fuso 6.1"/155mm Type 91 60.0 8.6 Izumo, Yamato Destroyer shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 3"/76mm Type 0 60.0 68.0 Tachibana 4.7"/120mm APC 60.0 8.0 Umikaze, Isokaze 4.7"/120mm Type 0 60.0 8.0 Wakatake, Minekaze, Kamikaze, Mutsuki 5"/127mm Type 0 60.0 8.0 Hatsuharu, Fubuki, Kagero, Shimakaze Russian navy Cruiser shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 4.7"/120mm Model 1905 60.0 8.0 Novik 5.1"/130mm SAP-46 (Orlan) 60.0 8.0 Orlan 5.1"/130mm Model 1911 60.0 8.0 Bogatyr (top), Svetlana (stock) 5.1"/130mm Model 1917 60.0 8.0 Svetlana (top) 5.1"/130mm SAP-46 (Profintern) 60.0 8.0 Profintern 6"/152mm AP, 91lb (Bogatyr) 60.0 8.0 Bogatyr (stock) 6"/152mm AP, 91lb 60.0 8.0 Diana, Aurora 6"/152mm Mark 27, mod 8 60.0 8.0 Murmansk 6"/152mm B-35 60.0 8.0 Budyonny, Shchors, Chapayev 6"/152mm B-35 (Kutuzov) 60.0 8.0 Mikhail Kutuzov 7"/180mm AP-32 60.0 6.0 Kirov 7"/180mm AP-32 (Dankskoi) 60.0 6.0 Dmitri Donskoi 7"/180mm AP-32 (Molotov) 60.0 6.0 Molotov 9"/220mm AP-23 60.0 6.0 Moskva Destroyer shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 4"/102mm Model 1915 60.0 8.0 Storozhevoi, Derzki, Izyaslav 5.1"/130mm SAP-46 60.0 8.0 Gnevny, Ognevoi, Kiev, Tashkent, Udaloi (stock) 5.1"/130mm SAP-46 (Gremyaschy) 60.0 8.0 Gremyaschy 5.1/130mm SAP-46 (B-2-U) 60.0 8.0 Udaloi (top), Khabarovsk Battleship shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 12"/305mm Model 1911 60.0 5.0 Imperator Nikolai I German navy Cruiser shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 4.1"/105mm SAP Pz.Gr. 60.0 8.0 Dresden 4.1"/105mm Pz.Gr. L/3.9 60.0 8.0 Emden 4.1"/105mm P.S.Gr L/3.8 60.0 8.0 Kolberg 5"/128mm P.S.Gr. L/4.5 60.0 8.0 Hermelin 5.9"/150mm Psgr. L/3.7 60.0 8.0 Karlsruhe 5.9"/150mm Psgr. L/3.7 (C/25) 60.0 8.0 Königsberg, Nürnberg 8"/203mm Pz. Spr. Ggr. L/4.4 60.0 5.0 Admiral Hipper, Roon, Hindenburg 8.3"/210mm Psgr. L/3.1 60.0 5.0 Yorck Battleship shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 15"/380mm P.S.Gr L/4.4 60.0 5.05 Tirpitz Royal Navy Battleship shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 15"/381mm Mark XXIIb 60.0 5.05 Warspite Destroyer shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 4"/102mmmm Mark XVI 60.0 8.0 Campbeltown Poland Destroyer shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 4.7"/120mmmm AP 60.0 8.0 Blyskawica Pan-Asia Destroyer shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 5"/127mmmm Mark 38 60.0 8.0 Lo Yang 5.1"/130mm SAP A 60.0 8.0 Anshan edit: Yes, Tachibana's AP normalisation is very likely bugged, so if you're running out to buy one now, keep in mind Lesta could fix it at any time. Edited June 6, 2016 by SeaAdmiral 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
5,644 [O7] 1nv4d3rZ1m Alpha Tester, Alpha Tester 12,147 posts 9,111 battles Report post #2 Posted June 6, 2016 So much for the lie people keep trying to push that USN CAs get better normalization, the IJN CAs are a big winner there. Like I have said in previous threads, they only buffed USN ricochet values. The high tier KM CAs really lose out in both ricochet angles and normalization. Not unexpected though... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
861 Sakuzhi Beta Testers 7,130 posts 7,353 battles Report post #3 Posted June 6, 2016 (edited) So much for the lie people keep trying to push that USN CAs get better normalization, the IJN CAs are a big winner there. Like I have said in previous threads, they only buffed USN ricochet values. Pretty sure that 67.5 degrees instead of 60 degrees with the same normalization is in fact better. Not worse. The Degrees are in the Russian Fail-reversed system of Degrees so instead of 30 degrees they auto-bounce at 22.5 degrees. Which is a good thing. Edited June 6, 2016 by Sakuzhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
5,644 [O7] 1nv4d3rZ1m Alpha Tester, Alpha Tester 12,147 posts 9,111 battles Report post #4 Posted June 6, 2016 Pretty sure that 67.5 degrees instead of 60 degrees with the same normalization is in fact better. Not worst. Except the USN CAs with SHS and 67.5 degrees for the ricochet also get 4.4 degrees of normalization which is not the same as the 8.2 normalization IJN CAs get at the same tier. Also normalization != ricochet angles, people need to stop confusing the issues, they do different things. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
432 Kenjister Beta Testers 1,821 posts 10,838 battles Report post #5 Posted June 6, 2016 Hmm... seems like USN does get fairly crappy normalization on the CAs. However, the shells certain DO perform significantly better than their non-SHS variety (when they do hit). So I'm guessing that either the bounce angle plays a bigger role than we assume, or that the shells themselves have significantly improved pen. Hypothesis regarding the autobounce angles: they perform much better against superstructure, bow and stern given the sharp angles and low armor found in those locations. Now, the high tier USN BB normalization. That is quite impressive. A 1.8 degree advantage over the non-SHS variety (even more when compared to Colorado). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
9,861 [NMKJT] VTAdmiral Beta Testers 24,800 posts 3,956 battles Report post #6 Posted June 6, 2016 Remind me again what normalization is? It's the shell changing its angle on impact for slightly better penetration, isn't it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
861 Sakuzhi Beta Testers 7,130 posts 7,353 battles Report post #7 Posted June 6, 2016 (edited) Except the USN CAs with SHS and 67.5 degrees for the ricochet also get 4.4 degrees of normalization which is not the same as the 8.2 normalization IJN CAs get at the same tier. Also normalization != ricochet angles, people need to stop confusing the issues, they do different things. I'm not confused by them, I am however able to look at them and realize that even with the higher normalization (and also, someone needs to stop just looking at T10 like it is the only thing that exists) the USN Shell is less likely to bounce. Curious if their formula takes normalization into account before/after auto-bounce is determined. Edited June 6, 2016 by Sakuzhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
5,644 [O7] 1nv4d3rZ1m Alpha Tester, Alpha Tester 12,147 posts 9,111 battles Report post #8 Posted June 6, 2016 Remind me again what normalization is? It's the shell changing its angle on impact for slightly better penetration, isn't it? Yeah Normalization changes the angle of the shell as it impacts to a slightly better angle improving penetration and changing the trajectory of the shell. I'm not confused by them, I am however able to look at them and realize that even with the higher normalization (and also, someone needs to stop just looking at T10 like it is the only thing that exists) the USN Shell is less likely to bounce. Curious if their formula takes normalization into account before/after auto-bounce is determined. Oh sorry I thought that the upgraded shell on the Baltimore was the same as the one on the DM. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
147 [-K-] SeaAdmiral Members 484 posts 5,728 battles Report post #9 Posted June 6, 2016 Remind me again what normalization is? It's the shell changing its angle on impact for slightly better penetration, isn't it? Yes that's correct. So angle of impact gets subtracted by normalization, which matters when calculating effective armor thickness. It may also have an effect on autobounces if it is applied before the autobounce check. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
386 [O7] Zampy Beta Testers 1,804 posts 12,331 battles Report post #10 Posted June 6, 2016 If a shell overmatches the armor, does normalization still get applied? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
147 [-K-] SeaAdmiral Members 484 posts 5,728 battles Report post #11 Posted June 6, 2016 If a shell overmatches the armor, does normalization still get applied? Theoretically unsure, but probably yes (to eliminate edge cases where the angling would mean near infinite thickness). In practicality a shell that overmatches the armor would pen anyway since the overmatched armor is between 10-32mm anyway, which a large caliber shell will probably have enough to go through. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
904 teamoldmill Beta Testers 3,667 posts 1,692 battles Report post #12 Posted June 6, 2016 So.... Zao is still the king of everything....... man. Gotta get off my behind. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
19 Admiral_SmokeyCanada Members 261 posts 4,250 battles Report post #13 Posted June 6, 2016 All credit to Vaexa, spending a lot of time datamining, formatting, and double checking these values, helping us understand the game more. All data is strictly for 0.5.6.1 live, and may be outdated when other patches hit. Quick reminder: Autobounce angle: Angle of impact where your shells forgo penetration checks and bounce. Shells can bounce at angles shallower than this, but at this angle or steeper the shell will always bounce. Only USN 8 inch appears to have nonstandard autobounce angles. Normalization: Shaves off degrees from angle of impact in penetration checks. 30 degree impact with 5 degree normalization calculates the impact angle as 25. Unsure if this applies before or after autobounce, more info in that thread. If it is applied before, a "perfect" 30 degree angle vs an enemy ship will be imperfect due to normalization. USN Cruiser shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 5"/127mm Mark 15 60.0 8.0 Erie 5"/127mm AP 60.0 8.0 Chester 5"/127mm Mark 38 60.0 8.0 Atlanta 6"/152mm Mark 28 60.0 8.0 Erie 6"/152mm AP, 105lbs 60.0 8.0 Chester, Albany, St. Louis, Phoenix (stock) 6"/152mm Mark 27, mod. 5 60.0 8.0 Phoenix (top), Omaha, Marblehead 6"/152mm Mark 35 60.0 6.8 Cleveland 8"/203mm AP, 260lbs 67.5 5.6 Pensacola (stock) 8"/203mm Mark 19 67.5 5.6 Pensacola (top), Indianapolis, New Orleans, Baltimore (stock) 8"/203mm Mark 21 67.5 4.4 Baltimore (top), Des Moines, Buffalo Battleship shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 12"/305mm AP 60.0 4.0 South Carolina 12"/305mm AP, 870lbs 60.0 5.0 Wyoming (stock), Arkansas Beta 12"/305mm Mark 15 60.0 5.0 Wyoming (top) 14"/356mm AP, 1400lbs 60.0 5.0 New York (stock), New Mexico (stock) 14"/356mm Mark 16 60.0 5.0 New York (top), New Mexico (top) 14"/356mm Mark 16 (Texas) 60.0 5.0 Texas 16"/406mm Mark 3 60.0 4.0 Colorado (stock) 16"/406mm Mark 5 60.0 4.0 Colorado (top) 16"/406mm Mark 8 (NC) 60.0 6.8 North Carolina 16"/406mm Mark 8 60.0 6.8 Iowa, Montana Destroyer shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 3"/76mm Mark 29 60.0 8.0 Smith 4"/102mm Mark 16 60.0 8.0 Sampson, Wickes, Clemson 5"/127mm Mark 15 60.0 8.0 Nicholas (stock) 5"/127mm Mark 38 60.0 8.0 Nicholas (top), Farragut, Mahan, Sims, Benson, Fletcher, Gearing IJN Cruiser shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 4.7"/120mm Type 0 60.0 8.0 Hashidate 5.5"/140mm Common 60.0 8.0 Tenryu, Kuma, Katori, Yubari, Iwaki Alpha, Kitakami 6"/152mm Type 4 60.0 8.0 Chikuma 6.1"/155mm Type 91 60.0 8.6 Mogami (stock) 7.9"/200mm Type 5 60.0 8.2 Furutaka (stock) 8"/203mm Type 91 60.0 8.2 Furutaka (top), Aoba, Myoko, Tone, Mogami (top),Atago, Ibuki 8"/203mm Type 92 60.0 8.2 Zao Battleship shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 12"/305mm AP, 850lbs 60.0 8.0 Mikasa 12"/305mm 41st Year Type 60.0 8.0 Kawachi (stock) 12"/305mm 41st Year Type 60.0 8.0 Kawachi (top) 12"/305mm Mark VI 60.0 8.0 Ishizuchi 14"/356mm Type 5 60.0 5.25 Myogi, Kongo (stock) 14"/356mm Type 91 60.0 5.25 Kongo (top), Fuso 16.1"/410mm Type 88 60.0 5.05 Nagato (stock), Amagi (stock) 16.1"/410mm Type 91 60.0 5.05 Nagato (top), Amagi (top) 16.1"/410mm Type 91 (Izumo) 60.0 5.05 Izumo 18.1"/460mm Type 91 60.0 5.25 Yamato Battleship secondary shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 5.5"/140mm Type 2 60.0 8.0 Nagato, Amagi 6"/152mm Type 4 60.0 8.0 Myogi, Ishizuchi, Kongo, Fuso 6.1"/155mm Type 91 60.0 8.6 Izumo, Yamato Destroyer shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 3"/76mm Type 0 60.0 68.0 Tachibana 4.7"/120mm APC 60.0 8.0 Umikaze, Isokaze 4.7"/120mm Type 0 60.0 8.0 Wakatake, Minekaze, Kamikaze, Mutsuki 5"/127mm Type 0 60.0 8.0 Hatsuharu, Fubuki, Kagero, Shimakaze Russian navy Cruiser shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 4.7"/120mm Model 1905 60.0 8.0 Novik 5.1"/130mm SAP-46 (Orlan) 60.0 8.0 Orlan 5.1"/130mm Model 1911 60.0 8.0 Bogatyr (top), Svetlana (stock) 5.1"/130mm Model 1917 60.0 8.0 Svetlana (top) 5.1"/130mm SAP-46 (Profintern) 60.0 8.0 Profintern 6"/152mm AP, 91lb (Bogatyr) 60.0 8.0 Bogatyr (stock) 6"/152mm AP, 91lb 60.0 8.0 Diana, Aurora 6"/152mm Mark 27, mod 8 60.0 8.0 Murmansk 6"/152mm B-35 60.0 8.0 Budyonny, Shchors, Chapayev 6"/152mm B-35 (Kutuzov) 60.0 8.0 Mikhail Kutuzov 7"/180mm AP-32 60.0 6.0 Kirov 7"/180mm AP-32 (Dankskoi) 60.0 6.0 Dmitri Donskoi 7"/180mm AP-32 (Molotov) 60.0 6.0 Molotov 9"/220mm AP-23 60.0 6.0 Moskva Destroyer shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 4"/102mm Model 1915 60.0 8.0 Storozhevoi, Derzki, Izyaslav 5.1"/130mm SAP-46 60.0 8.0 Gnevny, Ognevoi, Kiev, Tashkent, Udaloi (stock) 5.1"/130mm SAP-46 (Gremyaschy) 60.0 8.0 Gremyaschy 5.1/130mm SAP-46 (B-2-U) 60.0 8.0 Udaloi (top), Khabarovsk Battleship shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 12"/305mm Model 1911 60.0 5.0 Imperator Nikolai I German navy Cruiser shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 4.1"/105mm SAP Pz.Gr. 60.0 8.0 Dresden 4.1"/105mm Pz.Gr. L/3.9 60.0 8.0 Emden 4.1"/105mm P.S.Gr L/3.8 60.0 8.0 Kolberg 5"/128mm P.S.Gr. L/4.5 60.0 8.0 Hermelin 5.9"/150mm Psgr. L/3.7 60.0 8.0 Karlsruhe 5.9"/150mm Psgr. L/3.7 (C/25) 60.0 8.0 Königsberg, Nürnberg 8"/203mm Pz. Spr. Ggr. L/4.4 60.0 5.0 Admiral Hipper, Roon, Hindenburg 8.3"/210mm Psgr. L/3.1 60.0 5.0 Yorck Battleship shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 15"/380mm P.S.Gr L/4.4 60.0 5.05 Tirpitz Royal Navy Battleship shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 15"/381mm Mark XXIIb 60.0 5.05 Warspite Destroyer shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 4"/102mmmm Mark XVI 60.0 8.0 Campbeltown Poland Destroyer shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 4.7"/120mmmm AP 60.0 8.0 Blyskawica Pan-Asia Destroyer shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 5"/127mmmm Mark 38 60.0 8.0 Lo Yang 5.1"/130mm SAP A 60.0 8.0 Anshan edit: Yes, Tachibana's AP normalisation is very likely bugged, so if you're running out to buy one now, keep in mind Lesta could fix it at any time. isn't 381mm 15.1"? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
386 [O7] Zampy Beta Testers 1,804 posts 12,331 battles Report post #14 Posted June 6, 2016 Theoretically unsure, but probably yes (to eliminate edge cases where the angling would mean near infinite thickness). In practicality a shell that overmatches the armor would pen anyway since the overmatched armor is between 10-32mm anyway, which a large caliber shell will probably have enough to go through. Need to do some geometry then, find out the best spot to aim for on those Iowa/Montana bows to make sure those Yamato shells go through the front citadel reliably instead of veering off to the side. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
861 Sakuzhi Beta Testers 7,130 posts 7,353 battles Report post #15 Posted June 6, 2016 Yes that's correct. So angle of impact gets subtracted by normalization, which matters when calculating effective armor thickness. It may also have an effect on autobounces if it is applied before the autobounce check. Thats the question of the thread. Is does it go Hit>Normalization>Auto-Bounce Check. Or does it go HIt>Auto-bounce check>Normalization. Realistically it would be the latter as the shell would deflect off due not 'biting' into the armored plate in question. But I don't use that as a sure-bet when it comes to WG. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
19 Admiral_SmokeyCanada Members 261 posts 4,250 battles Report post #16 Posted June 6, 2016 All credit to Vaexa, spending a lot of time datamining, formatting, and double checking these values, helping us understand the game more. All data is strictly for 0.5.6.1 live, and may be outdated when other patches hit. Quick reminder: Autobounce angle: Angle of impact where your shells forgo penetration checks and bounce. Shells can bounce at angles shallower than this, but at this angle or steeper the shell will always bounce. Only USN 8 inch appears to have nonstandard autobounce angles. Normalization: Shaves off degrees from angle of impact in penetration checks. 30 degree impact with 5 degree normalization calculates the impact angle as 25. Unsure if this applies before or after autobounce, more info in that thread. If it is applied before, a "perfect" 30 degree angle vs an enemy ship will be imperfect due to normalization. USN Cruiser shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 5"/127mm Mark 15 60.0 8.0 Erie 5"/127mm AP 60.0 8.0 Chester 5"/127mm Mark 38 60.0 8.0 Atlanta 6"/152mm Mark 28 60.0 8.0 Erie 6"/152mm AP, 105lbs 60.0 8.0 Chester, Albany, St. Louis, Phoenix (stock) 6"/152mm Mark 27, mod. 5 60.0 8.0 Phoenix (top), Omaha, Marblehead 6"/152mm Mark 35 60.0 6.8 Cleveland 8"/203mm AP, 260lbs 67.5 5.6 Pensacola (stock) 8"/203mm Mark 19 67.5 5.6 Pensacola (top), Indianapolis, New Orleans, Baltimore (stock) 8"/203mm Mark 21 67.5 4.4 Baltimore (top), Des Moines, Buffalo Battleship shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 12"/305mm AP 60.0 4.0 South Carolina 12"/305mm AP, 870lbs 60.0 5.0 Wyoming (stock), Arkansas Beta 12"/305mm Mark 15 60.0 5.0 Wyoming (top) 14"/356mm AP, 1400lbs 60.0 5.0 New York (stock), New Mexico (stock) 14"/356mm Mark 16 60.0 5.0 New York (top), New Mexico (top) 14"/356mm Mark 16 (Texas) 60.0 5.0 Texas 16"/406mm Mark 3 60.0 4.0 Colorado (stock) 16"/406mm Mark 5 60.0 4.0 Colorado (top) 16"/406mm Mark 8 (NC) 60.0 6.8 North Carolina 16"/406mm Mark 8 60.0 6.8 Iowa, Montana Destroyer shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 3"/76mm Mark 29 60.0 8.0 Smith 4"/102mm Mark 16 60.0 8.0 Sampson, Wickes, Clemson 5"/127mm Mark 15 60.0 8.0 Nicholas (stock) 5"/127mm Mark 38 60.0 8.0 Nicholas (top), Farragut, Mahan, Sims, Benson, Fletcher, Gearing IJN Cruiser shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 4.7"/120mm Type 0 60.0 8.0 Hashidate 5.5"/140mm Common 60.0 8.0 Tenryu, Kuma, Katori, Yubari, Iwaki Alpha, Kitakami 6"/152mm Type 4 60.0 8.0 Chikuma 6.1"/155mm Type 91 60.0 8.6 Mogami (stock) 7.9"/200mm Type 5 60.0 8.2 Furutaka (stock) 8"/203mm Type 91 60.0 8.2 Furutaka (top), Aoba, Myoko, Tone, Mogami (top),Atago, Ibuki 8"/203mm Type 92 60.0 8.2 Zao Battleship shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 12"/305mm AP, 850lbs 60.0 8.0 Mikasa 12"/305mm 41st Year Type 60.0 8.0 Kawachi (stock) 12"/305mm 41st Year Type 60.0 8.0 Kawachi (top) 12"/305mm Mark VI 60.0 8.0 Ishizuchi 14"/356mm Type 5 60.0 5.25 Myogi, Kongo (stock) 14"/356mm Type 91 60.0 5.25 Kongo (top), Fuso 16.1"/410mm Type 88 60.0 5.05 Nagato (stock), Amagi (stock) 16.1"/410mm Type 91 60.0 5.05 Nagato (top), Amagi (top) 16.1"/410mm Type 91 (Izumo) 60.0 5.05 Izumo 18.1"/460mm Type 91 60.0 5.25 Yamato Battleship secondary shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 5.5"/140mm Type 2 60.0 8.0 Nagato, Amagi 6"/152mm Type 4 60.0 8.0 Myogi, Ishizuchi, Kongo, Fuso 6.1"/155mm Type 91 60.0 8.6 Izumo, Yamato Destroyer shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 3"/76mm Type 0 60.0 68.0 Tachibana 4.7"/120mm APC 60.0 8.0 Umikaze, Isokaze 4.7"/120mm Type 0 60.0 8.0 Wakatake, Minekaze, Kamikaze, Mutsuki 5"/127mm Type 0 60.0 8.0 Hatsuharu, Fubuki, Kagero, Shimakaze Russian navy Cruiser shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 4.7"/120mm Model 1905 60.0 8.0 Novik 5.1"/130mm SAP-46 (Orlan) 60.0 8.0 Orlan 5.1"/130mm Model 1911 60.0 8.0 Bogatyr (top), Svetlana (stock) 5.1"/130mm Model 1917 60.0 8.0 Svetlana (top) 5.1"/130mm SAP-46 (Profintern) 60.0 8.0 Profintern 6"/152mm AP, 91lb (Bogatyr) 60.0 8.0 Bogatyr (stock) 6"/152mm AP, 91lb 60.0 8.0 Diana, Aurora 6"/152mm Mark 27, mod 8 60.0 8.0 Murmansk 6"/152mm B-35 60.0 8.0 Budyonny, Shchors, Chapayev 6"/152mm B-35 (Kutuzov) 60.0 8.0 Mikhail Kutuzov 7"/180mm AP-32 60.0 6.0 Kirov 7"/180mm AP-32 (Dankskoi) 60.0 6.0 Dmitri Donskoi 7"/180mm AP-32 (Molotov) 60.0 6.0 Molotov 9"/220mm AP-23 60.0 6.0 Moskva Destroyer shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 4"/102mm Model 1915 60.0 8.0 Storozhevoi, Derzki, Izyaslav 5.1"/130mm SAP-46 60.0 8.0 Gnevny, Ognevoi, Kiev, Tashkent, Udaloi (stock) 5.1"/130mm SAP-46 (Gremyaschy) 60.0 8.0 Gremyaschy 5.1/130mm SAP-46 (B-2-U) 60.0 8.0 Udaloi (top), Khabarovsk Battleship shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 12"/305mm Model 1911 60.0 5.0 Imperator Nikolai I German navy Cruiser shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 4.1"/105mm SAP Pz.Gr. 60.0 8.0 Dresden 4.1"/105mm Pz.Gr. L/3.9 60.0 8.0 Emden 4.1"/105mm P.S.Gr L/3.8 60.0 8.0 Kolberg 5"/128mm P.S.Gr. L/4.5 60.0 8.0 Hermelin 5.9"/150mm Psgr. L/3.7 60.0 8.0 Karlsruhe 5.9"/150mm Psgr. L/3.7 (C/25) 60.0 8.0 Königsberg, Nürnberg 8"/203mm Pz. Spr. Ggr. L/4.4 60.0 5.0 Admiral Hipper, Roon, Hindenburg 8.3"/210mm Psgr. L/3.1 60.0 5.0 Yorck Battleship shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 15"/380mm P.S.Gr L/4.4 60.0 5.05 Tirpitz Royal Navy Battleship shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 15"/381mm Mark XXIIb 60.0 5.05 Warspite Destroyer shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 4"/102mmmm Mark XVI 60.0 8.0 Campbeltown Poland Destroyer shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 4.7"/120mmmm AP 60.0 8.0 Blyskawica Pan-Asia Destroyer shells Caliber Name Auto-ricochet Normalisation Ships used on 5"/127mmmm Mark 38 60.0 8.0 Lo Yang 5.1"/130mm SAP A 60.0 8.0 Anshan edit: Yes, Tachibana's AP normalisation is very likely bugged, so if you're running out to buy one now, keep in mind Lesta could fix it at any time. and I just checked on Wikipedia Smith never had 76mm guns it had 127mm Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
5,644 [O7] 1nv4d3rZ1m Alpha Tester, Alpha Tester 12,147 posts 9,111 battles Report post #17 Posted June 6, 2016 and I just checked on Wikipedia Smith never had 76mm guns it had 127mm Wrong Smith https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Smith_(DD-17) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
141 Memo_collector Beta Testers 186 posts 14,304 battles Report post #18 Posted June 6, 2016 Interesting... I wonder what the reason behind Japanese CAs getting the best normalization is. It couldn't have been for historical reasons since USN shells were the best penetrators at oblique angles in reality. It couldn't have been for game balance reasons either since Japanese cruiser line has been overperforming compared to every other line cruiser line for at least a year, until the introduction of Russian cruisers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
861 Sakuzhi Beta Testers 7,130 posts 7,353 battles Report post #19 Posted June 6, 2016 (edited) It couldn't have been for game balance reasons either since Japanese cruiser line has been overperforming compared to every other line cruiser line for at least a year, until the introduction of Russian cruisers. The AP rounds aren't the reason why the Zao is Over-performing like a jerk. The HE having something like a 22-23% Fire Chance with Perks and Flags is. Edited June 6, 2016 by Sakuzhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
141 Memo_collector Beta Testers 186 posts 14,304 battles Report post #20 Posted June 6, 2016 The AP rounds aren't the reason why the Zao is Over-performing like a jerk. The HE having something like a 22-23% Fire Chance with Perks and Flags is. Yes, I agree. But I still wonder the reasoning behind these normalization values. Seems so arbitrary. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
19 Admiral_SmokeyCanada Members 261 posts 4,250 battles Report post #21 Posted June 6, 2016 Wrong Smith https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Smith_(DD-17) ohhhhhhhhhh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
819 Aetreus Alpha Tester 4,302 posts 7,932 battles Report post #22 Posted June 6, 2016 Just a note, there are two numbers for ricochet. Guns auto ricochet at 60 degrees, but they start ricocheting at 45 degrees. USN CA guns start ricocheting at 60 degrees and auto ricochet at 67.5. I suspect that ricochet is applied before normalization, both because it'd be simpler for tuning parameters and because I've never observed deck penetrations at the ranges implied by a 66.8 degree maximum angle for a NC's main guns. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
502 [KOOKS] FCA_Wichita Beta Testers 2,272 posts 6,174 battles Report post #23 Posted June 6, 2016 One buff to SHS of the 16 inch variety would be to up the NC's auto bounce to 63.5 degrees and Iowa and Montana to 65. Cleveland's SHS can be upped to 64. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
4,053 [SYN] MrDeaf Members 16,027 posts 12,803 battles Report post #24 Posted June 6, 2016 (edited) I dunno about buffing NC's guns even more... they feel 100% better compared to what they were doing before. IMO, it's even better than Amagi now. Now, buffing the TDS on NC would be nice. Edited June 6, 2016 by MrDeaf Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
204 [R-R-R] Exciton8964 Members 1,069 posts 11,452 battles Report post #25 Posted June 7, 2016 Nice datamining. But w/o knowing the actual penetration depth of the shells, the normalization values are not very meaninful, are they? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
