"The DPS god" v.s. Hendenburg

[python_vs_ruby]

I went looking at some numbers, and found....

 

 

Des Moines shells per second: 0.666 repeating

Hindenburg shells per second: 0.8333 repeating

Des Moines damage per citadel: 5000

Hindenburg damage per citadel: 5900

Des Moines starting shell speed for AP: 762 meters a second

Des Moines starting shell speed for HE: 823 meters a second

Hindenburg starting shell speed for AP: 925 meters a second

Hindenburg starting shell speed for HE: 925 meters a second

 

 

So, Des Moines puts out 40 shells a minute, and Hindenburg 50. As well as having more range, torpedoes, better Anti Air (not base, but it has more large caliber  AA guns and with the addition of manual AA... *sigh*), better shell speeds.... COME ON, WARGAMING!

Oops! Forgot. Theoretical alpha damage for Hindenburg: 295000

For Des Moines: 200000

 

[TabbyHopkins]

Uhm, sir....

 

Des Moines will put  99 shells into the air in one minute of constant fire. ((Assuming you start with the barrels loaded, if not, 90))

 

Hindenburg has 12x..what's the reload, 10 seconds? 12 x 10 =.....hmm, 120. Wait, is this right?

[python_vs_ruby]

I forget even MORE info! Sorry.

[Aetreus]

DM reload: 6 seconds

Hindenburg reload: 10 seconds

 

DM RPM sustained: 90

Hindenburg RPM sustained: 72

 

DM theoretical HE DPM:252,000

DM theoretical AP DPM:450,000

Hindenburg theoretical HE DPM:180,000

Hindenburg theoretical AP DPM: 424,800

 

Please theorycraft responsibly.

[axyarthur]

Math:

DM: 9 guns firing every 6 secs, so in 1 min, guns can fire 10 times. 9 x 10 = 90 shells / min

Hindenburg: 12 guns firing every 10 secs, so in 1 min, guns fire 6 times. 12 x 6 = 72 shells / min

 

Multiply shells/min by damage/shell to get damage/min.

I assume numbers given by Aetreus above is correct.

 

Hope this helps

[gurudennis]

This is not to mention that the anemic HE on Hindenburg means that her DPM against properly angled targets is much lower than that of Des Moines. Considering how people tend to be more spatially aware at tier 10, you're more likely to encounter angled targets at tier 10 than elsewhere. This is why e.g. Molotov tops the charts (stupid broadside cruisers galore at tier 6) while Hindenburg trails in them. The issue with Hindenburg is that her damage output is highly contingent on the enemy making mistakes. In contrast, Des Moines is more flexible in the sense that you can't angle against HE. No DPM stats will tell you this.

[HKRevolutionOfOurTime]

Hindenburg has more theoretical AP DPM once you factor in upgrades. DM typically has GFCS Mod 2, but Hindenburg will have Main Battery Mod 3.

[HazeGrayUnderway]

This is not to mention that the anemic HE on Hindenburg means that her DPM against properly angled targets is much lower than that of Des Moines. Considering how people tend to be more spatially aware at tier 10, you're more likely to encounter angled targets at tier 10 than elsewhere. This is why e.g. Molotov tops the charts (stupid broadside cruisers galore at tier 6) while Hindenburg trails in them. The issue with Hindenburg is that her damage output is highly contingent on the enemy making mistakes. In contrast, Des Moines is more flexible in the sense that you can't angle against HE. No DPM stats will tell you this.

 

Will not Hindenburg's shells flying quite nicely at all her possible engagement ranges play a better role than Des Moine's?  DM is an absolute monster.  At very short ranges, because further out, her shells behave like Atlanta's, except DM doesn't have Atlanta's ROF.

 

I'm not saying Hindenburg's shells are better than Des Moine's.  I'm saying the former's guns will be better at more ranges than the latter's;  Better opportunities to apply damage than DM's short range emphasis.

 

While DM can equip an upgrade to technically let her shoot out to 18.something km, in reality, her shells behave so poorly with any range past short ranges that it's completely useless.

[atPrick__]

       math

[Judge_Doom]

Uhm, sir....

 

Des Moines will put  99 shells into the air in one minute of constant fire. ((Assuming you start with the barrels loaded, if not, 90))

 

Hindenburg has 12x..what's the reload, 10 seconds? 12 x 10 =.....hmm, 120. Wait, is this right?

 

ummm no its not right, it would be 72, not 120, 10 second reload, 6 reloads per minute x 12=72

[gurudennis]

While DM can equip an upgrade to technically let her shoot out to 18.something km, in reality, her shells behave so poorly with any range past short ranges that it's completely useless.

 

I'm running the upgrade in question because combined with CE it sometimes allows you to invisi-burn Yamatos late in the game... Otherwise, yes, DM is a short range ambush specialist. Here's the paradox: so is Hindenburg.

 

Any engagement at range leaves Hindenburg at a distinct disadvantage because citadels at range aren't easy while HE at range is, plus high tier cruisers are armored enough that Hindenburg struggles to penetrate at range at any significant angle.

 

With this in mind, what does Hindenburg counter exactly?

1. CA. Not really because Zao will stay at range and wreck while DM will use concealment to close in and wreck.

2. BB. Lol no, not unless they are broadside anyway.

3. DD. Not entirely. The HE is too weak. Although the velocity is conducive to sniping, plus there's always the German sonar...

4. CV. Hindenburg does have good self-defense AA, but it doesn't count as a counter in my book.

 

Bottom line, Hindenburg is the weakest tier 10 cruiser by far.

[SeaRaptor]

Bottom line, Hindenburg is the weakest tier 10 cruiser by far.

 

I would argue this point, but you've made up your mind.

[gurudennis]

I would argue this point, but you've made up your mind.

 

Please do. I'm capable of a rational argument that may among other things result in changing my mind.

[MrDeaf]

 

I'm running the upgrade in question because combined with CE it sometimes allows you to invisi-burn Yamatos late in the game... Otherwise, yes, DM is a short range ambush specialist. Here's the paradox: so is Hindenburg.

 

Any engagement at range leaves Hindenburg at a distinct disadvantage because citadels at range aren't easy while HE at range is, plus high tier cruisers are armored enough that Hindenburg struggles to penetrate at range at any significant angle.

 

With this in mind, what does Hindenburg counter exactly?

1. CA. Not really because Zao will stay at range and wreck while DM will use concealment to close in and wreck.

2. BB. Lol no, not unless they are broadside anyway.

3. DD. Not entirely. The HE is too weak. Although the velocity is conducive to sniping, plus there's always the German sonar...

4. CV. Hindenburg does have good self-defense AA, but it doesn't count as a counter in my book.

 

Bottom line, Hindenburg is the weakest tier 10 cruiser by far.

 

If you run concealment H-burg, a Zao will never be able to invisi-fire you.

If you get into a slug fest with Zao, H-berg should win, simply due to DPM advantage.

Against DDs, even if the HE is pretty weak, H-berg makes up for it with 12 guns and flat shell arcs.

 

Okay, so it's not like you will see a 12k dmg roll against a Gearing or Shima, which is entirely possible with Zao, but H-berg still offers plenty of HE DPM to handily wreck DDs that get spotted.

[Gabriel_LXIX]

Is there anything more useless than talking about theoretical DPM in ships

[SeaRaptor]

Please do. I'm capable of a rational argument that may among other things result in changing my mind.

 

Okay, I'll give it a try.

 

With this in mind, what does Hindenburg counter exactly?

1. CA. Not really because Zao will stay at range and wreck while DM will use concealment to close in and wreck.

 

Zao can stay at range if she wants, but she's not terribly effective against cruisers at long range.  BBs, sure.  Cruisers, less so.  Now, I'll grant you that she can run a Hindenburg down; she's faster.  But if I run concealment, she can't ever invisi-fire on me.  All things being equal, I have 10k more HP (and consequently, bigger heals), and a higher rate of fire.  I don't feel disadvantaged in that engagement.  It honestly can go either way, and would depend on board position and a variety of other factors.

 

Hindenburg DOES excel against cruisers in general.  Her AP makes it pathetically easy to wreck cruisers who expose themselves at medium range.  Her shell arcs make big extreme range hits tough, but they can happen on occasion due to her accuracy.  If I am fighting an enemy cruiser and he wants to stay neutral to me, I'm fine with that; 7 times in 10, there's someone else waiting to turn his broadside into Swiss cheese.  Works for me.  It's a team game.  If nothing else, a cruiser driver is forced to respect my AP and play accordingly, which sometimes means they find themselves in a position they don't want to be in (the reverse is also true and has happened to me).  

 

2. BB. Lol no, not unless they are broadside anyway.

 

Of course not, but that's not Hindenburg's job, really.  If a BB gives me a great shot, I'll take it.  But courting a duel with a BB in a CA is asking to get crit-a-deled into oblivion.  Welcome to T8+.  It's not as if any of the other T10 cruisers "counter" BBs, either.  The only one you can even make a case for is Zao, and all the BB needs is a single spotter within 16km of the Zao and then she's just another citadel waiting to happen.  Hindenburg CAN force enemy BBs into bad positions, because if I flank them, they have to treat me as a threat rather than ignore me.  That's dependent on the game situation, though.  It can be hard to force that kind of board position; sometimes you simply have to recognize it when it occurs.

 

3. DD. Not entirely. The HE is too weak. Although the velocity is conducive to sniping, plus there's always the German sonar...

 

I absolutely disagree here.  Hindenburg is the king of T10 DD wreckers, IMHO.  Only Des Moines can give her a run for her money in this department because of radar, but no DD with half a brain is going to come within 10km of a Des Moines anymore.  

 

For starters, her shell arcs at mid-to-close range are second to none.  I'm happy firing AP rounds at DDs, because most of them end up as full penetrations.  I've had 7-9k AP salvos against enemy DDs at 12-13km.  If I have some advanced warning and can load HE, I'll do that too.

 

Secondly, the idea that her "HE is too weak" is no longer correct.  Consider:

 

	HE Shell Damage	Fire Chance
Des Moines	2800	14%
Hindenburg	2500	13%

 

The gap here isn't that large.  A couple hundred damage and 1% fire chance?  Big deal.  They might as well be the same shell.  So if Hindenburg's HE is too weak to hunt DDs, so is Des Moines'.  

 

Lastly, you rightly mention German hydro.  Used properly, hydro basically makes you immune to torpedoes.  It has the advantage of being able to see DDs through smoke, which can be handy, but by taking away their primary weapon - for both you and your teammates - hydro provides a significant advantage if forced to hunt one down.  

 

4. CV. Hindenburg does have good self-defense AA, but it doesn't count as a counter in my book.

 

You should have a look at the numbers again.  

 

 

 

 

 

Hindenburg's AA suite is nearly equal to that of Des Moines.  Des Moines' is still better, but it's not as if an enemy CV should be happy to see a Hindenburg.   She guts enemy air wings, given the opportunity.  Poke around on WoWReplays.com and you'll find some Hindenburg replays with 70+ plane kills.  German AA is best-in-tier (non-premium) at Tier VIII, and is nothing to laugh at once you get to Tier IX and X.  

 

The only "counter" to a CV is another CV, but Hindenburg's AA is more than up to the task of protecting not only her, but her allies.  Just like Des Moines, you have to sink an upgrade module and a few skill points into it, but the return on investment is worth it.  Compared to the other two Tier X cruisers, Hindenburg and Des Moines are in a class of their own AA-wise.  Zao is the one who is really gimped with little more than self-defense AA, and Moskva's only AA advantage is her extreme AA bubble.

 

Bottom line, Hindenburg is the weakest tier 10 cruiser by far.

 

As you can probably tell by now, I vehemently disagree with this statement.  To be honest, I don't think ANY of the T10 cruisers are duds.  I think they all fit different playstyles and different roles, and can be made to excel in the right hands.  I obviously have a favorite, but I recognize that each of them has their strengths and weaknesses.  

 

I think Hindenburg probably best fits the "jack of all trades" category amongst the T10 cruisers.  Each of the other three has some kind of gimmick, but Hindenburg can be modded and specced to balance her in a way that means she is able to contribute solid AA, hunt DDs, and utilize whichever ammo type is required against her current target.  

 

Plus, she has torpedoes with fantastic firing arcs for the lolz.

[GUTB]

There is no conceivable scenario that doesn't include AFK in which a Hindenburg will beat a Zao.

 

Solo, 1-week:

 

Zao - 51% win - 75k damage - 53% survival

Hindenburg - 50% win - 60k damage - 43% survival

[MrDeaf]

There is no conceivable scenario that doesn't include AFK in which a Hindenburg will beat a Zao.

 

Solo, 1-week:

 

Zao - 51% win - 75k damage - 53% survival

Hindenburg - 50% win - 60k damage - 43% survival

 

okay, I'll bite.

 

Isn't Zao's main source of damage from starting fires against BBs?

[SeaRaptor]

There is no conceivable scenario that doesn't include AFK in which a Hindenburg will beat a Zao.

 

I guess all those Zao's I've killed were AFK, then.

[TabbyHopkins]

 

ummm no its not right, it would be 72, not 120, 10 second reload, 6 reloads per minute x 12=72

 

Yea, I knew my math was off, just too hungry at the time to realizem y mistake.

[gurudennis]

Okay, I'll give it a try.

 

*snip*

 

Some of this I agree with, other points I think are a bit exaggerated.

 

Hunting DDs: yes, I sort of implied that Hindenburg performs acceptably in that department if you look at my wording above. I wouldn't call it perfect, that laurel goes to Moskva, but certainly not bad and much better than Zao which happens to be helpless against a well played DD.

 

AA: you make a valid point. I don't think of Hindenburg as a be-all-end-all of AA, but her suite is good enough for self-defense and may occasionally help save a teammate. Having said that, nothing quite stands up to T10 aircraft, at least on their way in, so the point is ultimately moot in my opinion.

 

An "argument suicide" as it may be, I'm going to side with GUTB on the point that Hindenburg will hardly ever win an unencumbered engagement against a Zao, given equal skill. The issue is not with invisi-firing which as you rightly pointed out is impossible against a concealment spec'd Hindenburg, but the HE damage. Zao is fully capable of consistently delivering citadel level damage with HE against an angled Hindenburg, all the while a Hindenburg can't keep up with the DPM against an angled Zao. I will however concede that any major mistakes by the Zao can make for a very quick trip to port as her HP pool is less than impressive for her tier.

 

On the subject of Hindenburg spectacularly excelling against cruisers in general, let's say it's not how I would frame it for 3 reasons:

1. There aren't a whole lot of cruisers at tier 10.

2. Those that are present know what Hindenburg is capable of and won't give you an opportunity to hit their broadside. Certainly not more than once, if at all.

3. With some notable exceptions, the "cruiser killer" label, just like the "support ship" label, is simply a euphemism for "not that good". Anything can bully a cruiser in this game. To be truly successful, a ship needs versatility.

 

This is why, like I said before, Molotov is so successful as a cruiser clubber yet Hindenburg statistically isn't as strong tier for tier.

 

Would you care to share how you play your Hindenburg so perhaps I can better understand your points?

[SeaRaptor]

Hunting DDs: yes, I sort of implied that Hindenburg performs acceptably in that department if you look at my wording above. I wouldn't call it perfect, that laurel goes to Moskva, but certainly not bad and much better than Zao which happens to be helpless against a well played DD.

 

I agree that Zao is the most toothless cruiser of all against a DD with a functioning brain and the experience to get to T10.  My experience with Moskva's must be very different from yours.  I have never, EVER seen one within 13km of an enemy ship; DDs won't go near one, and Moskva drivers seemingly won't go near anyone else.  I would also think that her gun reload would work against her in this department, but never having played her it's hard to know.

 

AA: you make a valid point. I don't think of Hindenburg as a be-all-end-all of AA, but her suite is good enough for self-defense and may occasionally help save a teammate. Having said that, nothing quite stands up to T10 aircraft, at least on their way in, so the point is ultimately moot in my opinion.

 

True, T10 aircraft are in a class of their own.  My point was simply to speak out against the fallacy that Des Moines was the only T10 cruiser with good AA; I see a lot of people under this misconception, and while it amuses me in-game to have CV drivers complain about my AA, I would rather educate the player base.

 

An "argument suicide" as it may be, I'm going to side with GUTB on the point that Hindenburg will hardly ever win an unencumbered engagement against a Zao, given equal skill. The issue is not with invisi-firing which as you rightly pointed out is impossible against a concealment spec'd Hindenburg, but the HE damage. Zao is fully capable of consistently delivering citadel level damage with HE against an angled Hindenburg, all the while a Hindenburg can't keep up with the DPM against an angled Zao. I will however concede that any major mistakes by the Zao can make for a very quick trip to port as her HP pool is less than impressive for her tier.

 

I would have to run some numbers myself - or do a Training Room test - to agree with you.  I'm fully cognizant of how nasty Zao's HE is; what I'm not convinced of is that Hindenburg's rate of fire doesn't close the perceived gap in this situation.  You may very well be right, I just haven't put the time into trying to answer this question. 

 

On the subject of Hindenburg spectacularly excelling against cruisers in general, let's say it's not how I would frame it for 3 reasons:

1. There aren't a whole lot of cruisers at tier 10.

2. Those that are present know what Hindenburg is capable of and won't give you an opportunity to hit their broadside. Certainly not more than once, if at all.

3. With some notable exceptions, the "cruiser killer" label, just like the "support ship" label, is simply a euphemism for "not that good". Anything can bully a cruiser in this game.  To be truly successful, a ship needs versatility.

 

1.  Ever since the "Race to Des Moines!" event, I have seen an average of 2-3 Tier X cruisers in most of the Tier X games I zone into.  Given how heavily-slanted towards DDs the meta is up there, I'd say things are just fine in that department.  I'm not even counting the T9 and T8 ones that wander into top tier matches, either.  
2.  Agreed.  I see tons of players who immediately react to me by angling in.  Eventually, though, they have to turn for one reason or another.  Maybe they're too close to me; maybe they're avoiding torps.  Many players at this level know what Hindenburg does best, and still find ways to put themselves in positions that allow me to do it to them at least once or twice.  Sometimes that's all it takes.  
3.  We agree that virtually anything can bully a cruiser; I disagree that "cruiser killer" somehow means "not that good".  By this logic, battleships are "not that good", because that's mostly what they do at top tier: kill cruisers.

 

I want to highlight something from your last sentence in particular.  

 

To be truly successful, a ship needs versatility.

 

For my money, a properly built and captain-ed Hindenburg IS the most versatile cruiser in the game.  Since my response here also delves into your last question, I'll answer that first:

 

Would you care to share how you play your Hindenburg so perhaps I can better understand your points?

 

Sure.  My 15-point captain is specced thus:

 

• Situational Awareness
• Basic Firing Training
• Expert Marksman
• Superintendent
• Advanced Firing Training
• Manual Fire for Anti-Aircraft

 

My modules:

 

• Main Battery Mod 1
• AA Mod 2
• Main Battery Mod 3
• Damage Control Mod 1
• Steering Mod 2
• Concealment Mod 1

 

Consumables:

 

• Premium Repair
• Premium Hydro
• Catapult Fighter
• Premium Heal

 

Why she is built this way:

 

MBM3 should be self-explanatory.  My turret traverse is fine - especially with Expert Marksman - and lowering my reloads to 8.8 seconds is a significant increase in my threat level to enemy ships.  It also allows me to maximize salvos on ships that DO f-up and give me beam on shots.  

 

I'm a cruiser.  I want to be able to contribute to AA, and I want to make myself an unappetizing target since I am not as responsive on the rudder as most of my T10 counterparts.  AA Mod 2 is an easy choice because it's not like Hindenburg needs the accuracy module.  AFT is a hefty four-point investment, but also excellent at keeping myself and my teammates alive longer.  MFAA is an odd duck that I've been playing around with for a few weeks and have been very happy with.  It gives me better-than-Des Moines level AA against a squadron inside my middle AA ring, allowing me to "focus fire" torpedo planes or anyone else that looks like a threat.  It is basically compensation for not taking Defensive Fire.  So when you add that all up as a package, I'm pretty happy with my AA capability.  

 

I also want to be able to hunt DDs if needed.  So, German hydro.  It doubles handily as simply long-range torpedo defense when needed.  

 

I play her primarily as a second-line fighter in games against average numbers of BBs (3-4), but since the high-tier meta is so DD-ridden these days, I will happily push up and waste them when possible.  I think this is why I like her more than Zao; I can get my hands dirty.  I am totally unafraid to push into an area and drive out destroyers so the rest of my team can move in.  (I suspect I will like Des Moines for similar reasons, but the slog to get to her is more painful.)  Otherwise, I play her like most any other cruiser: I'm a jackal, looking for the best shot I can get based on the ammo I have loaded.  

 

What I like about this configuration is that she is versatile; there is no threat to my team that I cannot contribute to defending against in some fashion, and there is no enemy ship class that I cannot harass in some way.  She is the jack-of-all-trades, master of none.  Maybe one of the other T10 cruisers can configure themselves in this fashion, I dunno.  Des Moines is probably the only other one that could even attempt it (which is why I am interested in picking one up).  I know that Zao can't - she'll always be weak to DDs - and Moskva doesn't LOOK like she could.  Someone else can probably speak to that more intelligently than I can.

 

Hopefully that helps answer your question.

[gurudennis]

Makes sense, thank you for taking the time to write this up.

 

My Hindenburg is similarly spec'd, but with a bit less emphasis on AA. I am fully aware that her AA is comparatively strong, didn't mean to imply otherwise.

 

Regarding Moskva. Though I don't have her I'm making an assumption (based on observing her in Random) that she's quite similar to Donskoi that I'm grinding at the moment. The way Donskoi is a counter to DDs is by sniping them from obnoxious distances. The shell speed is so high that with some practice one can semi-reliably snipe most DDs from 12-14 km, and the HE is stronk. It's one of the few major selling points of Donskoi as compared to Ibuki in my opinion.

 

I guess the one important point I'm not yet sold on is versatility, seeing how fighting BBs and aware cruisers has been an exercise in frustration for me. I need to give her another chance and re-evaluate using HE more as I feel this is the one outtake from your points that is immediately applicable to alter my play.

[SeaRaptor]

Using her HE more is something I'm having to train myself to do as well.  The HE buffs were needed and are real.  I no longer feel completely worthless against angled cruisers. 

 

I'm not Zao, but I'm nothing to laugh at anymore either.

[Mesrith]

They're both great ships.  This thread is bad.