Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section.
Wepps

Jutland...

47 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

1,115
Alpha Tester
2,552 posts

In case anyone missed this one previously, here's another, narrated by Admiral Jellicoe's grandson.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6,799
Alpha Tester, Beta Testers
30,523 posts
6,106 battles

Only issue I have with Jutland, had Jellico just had some BALLS, he could of perused the German fleet, cornered and crushed it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
258 posts
4,969 battles

Only issue I have with Jutland, had Jellico just had some BALLS, he could of perused the German fleet, cornered and crushed it.

 

Not a naval historian, do not take me seriously, but I believe that Jellicoe's failure was due to lack of communications and military intelligence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6,799
Alpha Tester, Beta Testers
30,523 posts
6,106 battles

 

Not a naval historian, do not take me seriously, but I believe that Jellicoe's failure was due to lack of communications and military intelligence.

 

No. Problem was Sheer ordered a suicidal charge of his Destroyers at Jellico to launch the torpedo soups of all torpedo soups. And it caused Jellico to turn away and he lost the crushing advantage over sheer, and sheer was able to escape the battle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
258 posts
4,969 battles

 

No. Problem was Sheer ordered a suicidal charge of his Destroyers at Jellico to launch the torpedo soups of all torpedo soups. And it caused Jellico to turn away and he lost the crushing advantage over sheer, and sheer was able to escape the battle.

 

Wait, isn't that the logical thing to do when faced with torpedo attack?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9,435
[GWG]
[GWG]
Alpha Tester
29,209 posts
15,770 battles

Only issue I have with Jutland, had Jellico just had some BALLS, he could of perused the German fleet, cornered and crushed it.

 

That is a woulda, coulda, shoulda thing. In his defense he was worried about German submarines and a minor tactical loss which sent the Germans back to port was effectively a victory.

 

 

No. Problem was Sheer ordered a suicidal charge of his Destroyers at Jellico to launch the torpedo soups of all torpedo soups. And it caused Jellico to turn away and he lost the crushing advantage over sheer, and sheer was able to escape the battle.

 

 

Wait, isn't that the logical thing to do when faced with torpedo attack?

 

That was what happened to the Yamato at Leyte Gulf, a torpedo spread forced her to pull out of the line and she never was able to get back into the action.

 

Edited by BrushWolf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6,799
Alpha Tester, Beta Testers
30,523 posts
6,106 battles

 

Wait, isn't that the logical thing to do when faced with torpedo attack?

Had Oliver Hazard Perry gone with that conclusion, he'd of never taken Mobile Bay.

 

That is a woulda, coulda, shoulda thing. In his defense he was worried about German submarines and a minor tactical loss which sent the Germans back to port was effectively a victory.

True, but it was a tactical loss considering he lost WAY more ships than the Germans.  But I guess that just shows I'm more of a damn the torpedos kinda guy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Modder
1,359 posts

At the end of the day the High Seas Fleet turned away from the Grand Fleet without completing their objective. The Grand Fleet maintained the blockade. There was no need to hunt down Sheer and Hipper and completely destroy them, putting more of the Grand Fleet at risk. Jellicoe made the right decision.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
373
[AOH]
Members
984 posts
7,157 battles

The idea was to destroy a sizeable portion of the British Navy with a locally superior force. Afterwards they could challenge on more even terms control of the North Sea. They did not meet their objective. The Germans lost this battle from the strategic standpoint even though it was a tactical victory. I think the British sank something like 63,000 tons of German ships, while the Germans sank 117,000 tons of British ships. But the threat of the German Navy sailing again was removed. That was the real victory.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,921
Alpha Tester, Alpha Tester
11,461 posts
1,963 battles

True, but it was a tactical loss considering he lost WAY more ships than the Germans.  But I guess that just shows I'm more of a damn the torpedos kinda guy.

 

 3 more ships isn't "way more" when there are 250 in total. 

As for the losses, he isn't responsible for largest of them.

The loss of the battle-cruisers lies with Beatty, and the armoured cruisers with Arbuthnot. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,644
[O7]
Alpha Tester, Alpha Tester
12,147 posts
9,111 battles

Had Oliver Hazard Perry gone with that conclusion, he'd of never taken Mobile Bay.

True, but it was a tactical loss considering he lost WAY more ships than the Germans.  But I guess that just shows I'm more of a damn the torpedos kinda guy.

 

Different kind of torpedoes. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6,799
Alpha Tester, Beta Testers
30,523 posts
6,106 battles

 

Different kind of torpedoes. 

 

Yes Zim I know this. But Jellico let the kind of Trafalgar victory slip right through his fingers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
17,510 posts

 

Yes Zim I know this. But Jellico let the kind of Trafalgar victory slip right through his fingers.

 

Greatest Naval disaster since

 

Sliced Bread

 

German Fleet sinks the British High Sea's Fleet

 

Jellico burned in effigy (by his wife and children)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6,799
Alpha Tester, Beta Testers
30,523 posts
6,106 battles

 

Greatest Naval disaster since

 

Sliced Bread

 

German Fleet sinks the British High Sea's Fleet

 

Jellico burned in effigy (by his wife and children)

 

Cute Red. Real cute.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9,435
[GWG]
[GWG]
Alpha Tester
29,209 posts
15,770 battles

Had Oliver Hazard Perry gone with that conclusion, he'd of never taken Mobile Bay.

True, but it was a tactical loss considering he lost WAY more ships than the Germans.  But I guess that just shows I'm more of a damn the torpedos kinda guy.

 

The torpedoes in Mobile Bay were what we call mines now. Some times chasing a great victory leads to defeat. Read up on the Battle of the Chesapeake, the British lost the American Revolution because the British admiral took the French bait and left his blockade of the bay allowing the French reinforcements to get in leading to the fall of Yorktown. Yes he won but in losing the French admiral completed his mission.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6,799
Alpha Tester, Beta Testers
30,523 posts
6,106 battles

 

The torpedoes in Mobile Bay were what we call mines now. Some times chasing a great victory leads to defeat. Read up on the Battle of the Chesapeake, the British lost the American Revolution because the British admiral took the French bait and left his blockade of the bay allowing the French reinforcements to get in leading to the fall of Yorktown. Yes he won but in losing the French admiral completed his mission.

 

Yes I know about battle of Chesapeake.  That was one time the British admiral had all the advantages and pissed it away for glory.  Jellico's situation was he had the tactical and strategic advantage and had the chance for a crushing victory instead settled for a tactical loss but keeping the Germans bottled up.

 

Which was likley the safe play but, personally I'd of chanced it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,644
[O7]
Alpha Tester, Alpha Tester
12,147 posts
9,111 battles

 

Yes Zim I know this. But Jellico let the kind of Trafalgar victory slip right through his fingers.

 

 

You have to understand the prewar mindset of the RN, they were deathly afraid of torpedoes and for good reason. The RN invested a significant amount of time between the turn of the century and WW1 developing a fire control system that eventually turned into the Dreyer table because they needed to be able to engage targets far enough away from the enemy to be safe from torpedoes. Even in the mock battles and practices the RN engaged in they were declaring BBs dead if a torpedo was launched in its general direction during the engagement. The fear or torpedoes was very real for the RN at the time, these were not the few mines that Perry had to deal with it was the threat of a browning shot of a bunch torpedoes launched by those DDs which could have hurt many of his BBs that made him turn away. Likely any other person in the same circumstance would have made the same call.

 

By that time Naval battles were all about safe plays, with how much effort it took to put a fleet together it was not something you just threw away for a chance of destroying the enemy. Keeping your fleet an effective force was the first consideration and second was keeping the enemy from doing what they needed to do, not destroying them. 

Edited by 1nv4d3rZ1m
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,921
Alpha Tester, Alpha Tester
11,461 posts
1,963 battles

Yes Zim I know this. But Jellico let the kind of Trafalgar victory slip right through his fingers.

It was never going to be a Trafalgar style victory, because Scheer and Hipper were no Villeneuves, and the German crews were highly competent. 

Plus all the systematic problems on the British side, the most important ones being cordite handling on the British battle-cruisers, British shells, and communication. 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,228 posts
6,330 battles

Had Oliver Hazard Perry gone with that conclusion, he'd of never taken Mobile Bay.

True, but it was a tactical loss considering he lost WAY more ships than the Germans.  But I guess that just shows I'm more of a damn the torpedos kinda guy.

 

That wasn't me it was David Farragut.

 

His caution was perfectly warranted, if he had some how lost then allied control of the Atlantic would have been likely destroyed. Considering that maintaining the fleet essentially kept the German fleet out of the war effort I would say his decision turned out fine. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9,435
[GWG]
[GWG]
Alpha Tester
29,209 posts
15,770 battles

 

Yes I know about battle of Chesapeake.  That was one time the British admiral had all the advantages and pissed it away for glory.  Jellico's situation was he had the tactical and strategic advantage and had the chance for a crushing victory instead settled for a tactical loss but keeping the Germans bottled up.

 

Which was likley the safe play but, personally I'd of chanced it.

 

He definitely could have had a great victory but in 20/20 hindsight of history he did the right thing, the High Seas Fleet never ventured out again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6,799
Alpha Tester, Beta Testers
30,523 posts
6,106 battles

It was never going to be a Trafalgar style victory, because Scheer and Hipper were no Villeneuves, and the German crews were highly competent. 

Plus all the systematic problems on the British side, the most important ones being cordite handling on the British battle-cruisers, British shells, and communication. 

 

Come now awesome, you know well as I do not once but TWICE Jellico had Scheer's T crossed and couldn't get the knock out blows.  He had Scheer by the balls and let him get away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6,799
Alpha Tester, Beta Testers
30,523 posts
6,106 battles

 

That wasn't me it was David Farragut.

 

His caution was perfectly warranted, if he had some how lost then allied control of the Atlantic would have been likely destroyed. Considering that maintaining the fleet essentially kept the German fleet out of the war effort I would say his decision turned out fine. 

 

Oh yeah it was Farragut. Sorry get admirals mixed up at times. OOPS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6,799
Alpha Tester, Beta Testers
30,523 posts
6,106 battles

 

He definitely could have had a great victory but in 20/20 hindsight of history he did the right thing, the High Seas Fleet never ventured out again.

 

Like I said earlier, probably the smart play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,587 posts

 

Come now awesome, you know well as I do not once but TWICE Jellico had Scheer's T crossed and couldn't get the knock out blows.  He had Scheer by the balls and let him get away.

 

That can be the fault of the British shell decencies deficiencies. And the fact that not all of the huge line of battle wagons could fire upon their targets due to the poor visibility. And that German ships can take serious damage and still stay afloat due to their use of compartments. Even then, the German ships were starting to take severe punishment. Any more hits on the Seydlitz that did any significant damage could have sank her. That proves how resilient Dreadnoughts are, if the safety measures are followed. Only after that severity of punishment can ships of that size can be sunk. 

 

Jellicoe made the right decision. It was not about taking the High Seas Fleet out of commission, it was about maintaining the status quo. An objective he stated to the admiralty when he took command of the grand fleet, he would not take unnecessary risks, that put the Grand Fleet in severe danger. It is unfair on him that he was criticised for doing as he said he would do in the first place, by those who knew that is what he would do.

 

As it happens, a couple of the dreadnoughts in the Grand Fleet came close to being struck by torpedoes, including Neptune, chased by one that was steadily gaining on Neptune's stern (Lewd) - In the end, the torpedo disappeared under her stern but did not explode, along with several other close calls. Considering that Marlborough was already hit, why would Jellicoe pursue an already fleeing enemy, meaning that he could lose several of his Dreadnoughts. Not worth the risk. Ultimately, Jellicoe saved a lot of lives here as well, both British & German alike. He knew what he needed to do, and did it he did. As said before, the destruction of the Hochseeflotte was a secondary objective.

 

It was never going to be a Trafalgar-style victory, the British had more than competent enemies, and with Admirals that made very questionable decisions (Beatty & Arbuthnot).  

 

 

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×