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Lancer78

If A/S is useless to the team

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A/S is not useless to the team. It's just horrible from an XP/battle standpoint. I would argue that a properly played A/S CV that shuts down the opposing strike CV is

 

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Pure strike packages on usn cvs are worthless to the team.

I think AS is just fine.

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A/S is not useless to the team. It's just horrible from an XP/battle standpoint. I would argue that a properly played A/S CV that shuts down the opposing strike CV is

 

credit_to_team_by_penta_gram-d3dp8l4.jpg

I average 1,260 base XP in the A/S Ryujo though.  My damage is half of the server average.

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A/S is not useless to the team. It's just horrible from an XP/battle standpoint. I would argue that a properly played A/S CV that shuts down the opposing strike CV is

 

(credit to the team/image)

 

 Just as a properly played Strike CV who runs around where the fighters aren't, or who drags them across AA until they're all shot down, then continues about his business is also a credit to his team.

 

Love the STRIKE Bogue, I have two Clear Skies in it with just my AA speced CV and tail gunners.

 

Pure strike packages on usn cvs are worthless to the team.

I think AS is just fine.

 

Tell that to all those I've bombed and torpedoed with my Strike package CVs, even in the face of AS opposition; especially those my Bogue has gone after. If the fighters get there AFTER  I drop my bombs or torpedoes, what good were they? I'll trade a few squads of attackers for sinking a BB or cruiser any day of the week.

 

I will admit I've been shut down before, but that's more the exception than the rule.

 

I will also admit there have been times when it would have been better if I had at least the 1-1-0 base package on the Bogue; but that is also the exception rather than the rule.

 

Personally I consider AS loadouts lazy; pretty much the epitome of the point and click people hate about CVs.  And while I will admit there is a time and a place for them on occasion, I've seen too many CVs die because they didn't have enough strike potential to fight off even a damaged DD, or who had lost all their minimal strike ability, and who only had fighters left buzzing around as the carrier was casually picked to pieces by someone who found it.

Edited by Estimated_Prophet

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Pure strike packages on usn cvs are worthless to the team.

I think AS is just fine.

 

I feel like worthless is a bit of a strong statement.

 

I find that in my USN CVs, people are irritated with me for having the FCM I have, regardless of if I go AS or strike. Personally, I find that I influenced the battles more with a strike package than I did with AS from the Indy on up. AS Bogue was great. Pre-Zuiho nerf, I used to love going solo against 2 Zuihos. I'd shoot down 40+ planes and limit them both to under 150 base exp a lot of the time. Tried that on the Indy, but the Ryujo planes didn't die fast enough for 2 squadrons to really shut down even 1 Ryujo effectively, and their 1 fighter squadron may not seem like much, but it speed bumps enough to get an extra torp drop in. Ranger and Lex, AS worked even worse for me because there are too many enemy squadrons and all Hiryu/Shokaku drivers bring 24 fighters to speed bump with, which is enough for 3 unopposed attacks. I end up not giving very good air cover, and I end up doing terrible damage, like 30-45,000 if I do well. 

 

With strike CVs, I give no cover at all, but with my Strike Lexi, 1 bombing run often does more harm to enemy combatants than my entire match of AS Lexi. If I can maul like 5 guys on the enemy team, I feel that I'm doing more than I would do with AS load, plus winning more, and getting myself better rewards to boot.

 

Your mileage my vary.

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...

With strike CVs, I give no cover at all, but with my Strike Lexi, 1 bombing run often does more harm to enemy combatants than my entire match of AS Lexi. If I can maul like 5 guys on the enemy team, I feel that I'm doing more than I would do with AS load, plus winning more, and getting myself better rewards to boot.

 

Your mileage my vary.

 

Even with an AS loadout, fighters can't be everywhere at once. I usually find WASD maneuvering against something that likely WILL kill you, (a torp strike) is a better option than worrying about something that MIGHT kill you, (getting citadeled by a straight shooter while in a turn.)

 

You might be screwed either way, but I see no reason to give the torpys an easy time of it by sailing in straight, or nearly straight lines.

 

The same thing with focused AA fire; how common is its use? Whenever I see something getting close, I 'ctrl-click' (alt-click'? never can seem to remember outside of the game,) on it as a matter of course. Even in an AA-weak ship; shooting down even one attacker might mean the difference between surviving and getting sunk.

Edited by Estimated_Prophet

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Pure strike packages on usn cvs are worthless to the team.

I think AS is just fine.

 

I disagree, USN CV strikes are devastating if well-coordinated.  In Ranger, I turned an Amagi and Tirpitz from full-health battleships into two smoldering wrecks with dive bomber and torpedo bomber strikes.  I hit the Amagi with a total of 13/18 bombs dropped and 4/6 torpedoes hit the Tirpitz.  If you can manual drop and love seeing people burn and flood, USN strike carrier is the ship for you.  Even with this recent AA rework which made ships like North Carolina and Iowa "no-fly-zones" for aircraft, I can still land most of my bombs/torpedoes on them.  I have that battle in the 3rd picture below.

 

AS isn't worth anything if you can't use it properly.  Plenty of AS Hiryus and Rangers simply leave their fighters over my carrier and camp out planes.  They don't protect their team from my strikes, or even themselves.  AS is just a lazy way out of playing carrier, for those who aren't able to play competently.  Yes I agree the fighters give some security to the team, but they don't attack themselves or act on their own, and most people don't micro their planes so they are effectively useless.  In my opinion, I think AS is just not worth the time or effort to make so few credits/XP compared to strike carriers.

 

My average gains in strike Independence, Ranger, and recently Bogue for seal-clubbing. (I shoot down planes because I spec my carrier for max AA)  I'll admit that multipliers and missions helped too:

 

 

2bbKmy4.jpg

SvQ1GB1.jpg

Z5LLuts.jpg

aXH1CTB.jpg

JGaALrC.jpg

ely4zsK.jpg

 

 

 

Also, I'm pretty sure I'm crazy seal-clubbing people in strike Bogue.

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  • Strike can carry even if your team is a sack of potatoes.
  • Air superiority can give your team a massive advantage in terms of vision,which is great assuming you aren't simultaneously handicapping them by failing to deny the enemy their aerial vision and airstrikes.

 

In a random battle, you're gambling that giving potatoes a massive advantage is going to allow them to win. Even with help potatoes don't always have what it takes to win, and you can't carry a sack of potatoes with fighters.

Edited by Special_Kay
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The Ryujo is a bit of an exception because she still gets excellent striking power along with an OP fighter loadout. The only other ship like her is 4/2/2 Hakuryu. 

In general what people mean by AS is useless is the 3/1/2 loadouts of the Hiryu and Shokaku and the 2/0/X and 3/0/X of US CVs.

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  • Strike can carry even if your team is a sack of potatoes.
  • Air superiority can give your team a massive advantage in terms of vision,which is great assuming you aren't simultaneously handicapping them by failing to deny the enemy their aerial vision and airstrikes.

 

In a random battle, you're gambling that giving potatoes a massive advantage is going to allow them to win. Even with help potatoes don't always have what it takes to win, and you can't carry a sack of potatoes with fighters.

 

^This. This is what i mean when I say in an AS CV I can't influence the battle.

 

With AS Ranger, I can light a capping DD all damn day, but if my team won't shoot him, what can I do? Try to bomb him, but with only 2x DBs it'll probably take me like 5-7 minutes to kill the guy (with the long turn around time of those planes, finding the guy, and the difficulty of landing multiple DB hits on a DD). With a strike CV, at least I can identify someone who needs to die, then make them dead.

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Pure strike packages on usn cvs are worthless to the team.

I think AS is just fine.

 

On the contrary.  Any Strike CV can light up an opposing team.  Strike CVs have the capability to literally sink enough ships to swing a losing effort into a victorious one.  Air Superiority doesn't do that.  The best Air Superiority can hope for is troll the opposing CV(s) and hope the team can do the rest, because your damage capability sucks.  Strike, OTOH, sinks and damages ships, and that has direct, very obvious effects on a match:  With fewer enemy ships, the better your chances of winning.

 

There are good Strike players out there that will wipe the other team despite an Air Superiority CV there.  I'm no longer at that quality, but I've seen more than enough Strike players do that.  Hell, Strike CVs going out and sinking the opposing CV is one way to get Air Superiority :teethhappy:

 

The other factor is the rewards in Credits & XPs.  Well played Air Superiority where you shoot down tons of planes are rewarded poorly.  Damage and sinkings, which Strike is built for, directly corresponds to way better Credit & XP rewards.

 

 

^This. This is what i mean when I say in an AS CV I can't influence the battle.

With AS Ranger, I can light a capping DD all damn day, but if my team won't shoot him, what can I do? Try to bomb him, but with only 2x DBs it'll probably take me like 5-7 minutes to kill the guy (with the long turn around time of those planes, finding the guy, and the difficulty of landing multiple DB hits on a DD). With a strike CV, at least I can identify someone who needs to die, then make them dead.

 

Yep.  You seen what IJN Strike CVs can do when going after DDs?  :ohmy:

 

"Say good night, Gracie!"

====

 

Someone had a recent thread talking about his experience going 2/0/2 Lexington, going into great detail.  It's not good.

====

Throwing this picture in.

DuY2dMF.jpg

I had a pretty mediocre performance.  There wasn't much of a "Push" mentality in the team overall.  But the CV of our team, a Hiryu Strike Spec (2/2/2) was one of the guys carrying the team to success.  How?

1)  Sank the opposing Ranger at the beginning.  Our CV analyzed his stats while the match loaded and deemed Ranger was 1/1/1, so he used Hiryu's 2/2/2 to absolutely crush Ranger.  Air Superiority established... Via STRIKE SPEC!  Before he launched, he explained to the team what he was going to do, one of the guys wanted him to go after a BB first, then the CV, but he opted to go straight to the CV first, thereby negating for the entirety of the match the threat of enemy air strikes.  USN TB squadrons are no joke and I was glad to not have to dodge 6 plane TB airstrikes.

 

2)  Sending his bombers to both west and eastern sides, especially East since our guys there were badly outnumbered.

 

3)  Spotted enemy DDs, harassed them with bombers.

 

4) Quite late in the match, a Farragut showed up with a head-on encounter with our CV.  Hiryu nimbly turned away and maneuvered to only get hit by 1 torp.  With Farragut spotted, nearby ships began peppering him, he also sends bombers to drop torps in a criss-cross pattern... Farragut gets sunk.  Air Superiority CVs have very little weapons to defend themselves in such a surprise encounter, most especially USN ones.

 

You simply can't do all that with limited Fighter Specs.  You shoot down some planes then that's it, you can't affect too much with your limited damage capability.  If you were Fighter Spec, you're not going to carry the team and sink ships.  You can only watch as the team Potatoes itself into defeat.  A Strike CV, OTOH, can take matters into their own hands to try and prevent that.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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You simply can't do all that with limited Fighter Specs.  You shoot down some planes then that's it, you can't affect too much with your limited damage capability.  If you were Fighter Spec, you're not going to carry the team and sink ships.  You can only watch as the team Potatoes itself into defeat.  A Strike CV, OTOH, can take matters into their own hands to try and prevent that.

 

^This. Strike carriers help their teams win by killing important targets. AS CVs help make it harder for their team to lose by being a PITA to 1/12th of the enemy force. Winning is still almost 100% down to the team making use of the AS CV assistance. That's a dubious crutch to put all your weight on in my experience. If I want to win battles, I need to win them personally.

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Why do I have a 70.59% W/R in my A/S Ryujo?

 

The lower tier CVs are really a moot point to have a discussion of strike or air. Most do not have a full reserve of planes or they have exactly 1 full reserve. Once you get to the Hiryu/Ranger and up. Each CV has a ton of reserves so an AS CV so killing 1 torpedo or bomber squadron does not negate the enemy CV.

So Ryujo air can be nice (you intercept the enemy DB or TP and the enemy CV is quickly neutralized) The AS Ryujo though is strike weak and ends up like the US air CVs with no kills and minimal damage. You have to count on your ships to win the battle because at best the AS CV neutralizes the other carrier.

70% win rate in 17 battles with 20.5k damage and 0.24 ships sunk per battle (4 ships sunk in 17 fights)

 

I'll take the 59% win rate over 86 battles with 44,960 damage and 1 ship sunk per battle (87 ships sunk in 86 fights) using the standard Ryujo

 

In the long run very few people maintain 70 and 80% win rates over the life of the ship. We all get those matches where we lose 3, 4, 5 or more straight no matter how many ships we sink.

Also at the Indy/Ryujo level: The indy has 3 squadrons and the Ryujo 5. That means the AS Ryujo actually has enough squadrons to engage all 3 US CV strike squadrons.

That changes with the Ranger and Hiryu since they add another squadron with the alternate loadouts.

The other thing is Ryujo vs Ryujo is 3 fighters to 1. But Hiryu vs Hiryu is 3 fighters vs 2.

All in all it might work for a bit but in the long run at the higher tiers it can be a detriment.

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I disagree, USN CV strikes are devastating if well-coordinated.  In Ranger, I turned an Amagi and Tirpitz from full-health battleships into two smoldering wrecks with dive bomber and torpedo bomber strikes.  I hit the Amagi with a total of 13/18 bombs dropped and 4/6 torpedoes hit the Tirpitz.  If you can manual drop and love seeing people burn and flood, USN strike carrier is the ship for you.  Even with this recent AA rework which made ships like North Carolina and Iowa "no-fly-zones" for aircraft, I can still land most of my bombs/torpedoes on them.  I have that battle in the 3rd picture below.

 

AS isn't worth anything if you can't use it properly.  Plenty of AS Hiryus and Rangers simply leave their fighters over my carrier and camp out planes.  They don't protect their team from my strikes, or even themselves.  AS is just a lazy way out of playing carrier, for those who aren't able to play competently.  Yes I agree the fighters give some security to the team, but they don't attack themselves or act on their own, and most people don't micro their planes so they are effectively useless.  In my opinion, I think AS is just not worth the time or effort to make so few credits/XP compared to strike carriers.

 

My average gains in strike Independence, Ranger, and recently Bogue for seal-clubbing. (I shoot down planes because I spec my carrier for max AA)  I'll admit that multipliers and missions helped too:

 

 

2bbKmy4.jpg

SvQ1GB1.jpg

Z5LLuts.jpg

aXH1CTB.jpg

JGaALrC.jpg

ely4zsK.jpg

 

 

 

Also, I'm pretty sure I'm crazy seal-clubbing people in strike Bogue.

If A/S gives poor XP, than why is my base XP average 20% more than yours in my A/S Ryujo compared to your Indy?  I am thinking that maybe A/S loadouts got an XP buff.

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The lower tier CVs are really a moot point to have a discussion of strike or air. Most do not have a full reserve of planes or they have exactly 1 full reserve. Once you get to the Hiryu/Ranger and up. Each CV has a ton of reserves so an AS CV so killing 1 torpedo or bomber squadron does not negate the enemy CV.

So Ryujo air can be nice (you intercept the enemy DB or TP and the enemy CV is quickly neutralized) The AS Ryujo though is strike weak and ends up like the US air CVs with no kills and minimal damage. You have to count on your ships to win the battle because at best the AS CV neutralizes the other carrier.

70% win rate in 17 battles with 20.5k damage and 0.24 ships sunk per battle (4 ships sunk in 17 fights)

 

I'll take the 59% win rate over 86 battles with 44,960 damage and 1 ship sunk per battle (87 ships sunk in 86 fights) using the standard Ryujo

 

In the long run very few people maintain 70 and 80% win rates over the life of the ship. We all get those matches where we lose 3, 4, 5 or more straight no matter how many ships we sink.

Also at the Indy/Ryujo level: The indy has 3 squadrons and the Ryujo 5. That means the AS Ryujo actually has enough squadrons to engage all 3 US CV strike squadrons.

That changes with the Ranger and Hiryu since they add another squadron with the alternate loadouts.

The other thing is Ryujo vs Ryujo is 3 fighters to 1. But Hiryu vs Hiryu is 3 fighters vs 2.

All in all it might work for a bit but in the long run at the higher tiers it can be a detriment.

You do more damage, but my Avg XP is 33% more than yours in the Ryujo.

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But to be honest, I just love trolling DD.  I only play my Ryujo if I get sunk by TB or DD in the previous games to extract revenge.

 

I have also noticed that around tier 6, Ship AA becomes much stronger, and I lose a ton of strike aircraft.  I feel I am much more useful to the team in the A/S loadout.  

 

With my spotting, almost all enemy DD are dead within the first 5 minutes of the game.  I had a game yesterday where all tier 8 destroyers on the enemy team managed only 1 kill between them.  I doubt ANY Strike Ryujo could match the damage of 2 Fubukis and a Benson that are left unmolested.

Edited by Lancer78

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If A/S gives poor XP, than why is my base XP average 20% more than yours in my A/S Ryujo compared to your Indy?  I am thinking that maybe A/S loadouts got an XP buff.

 

Winning gives a +50% boost to base xp so if you win more you get more xp, even if the xp you "earn" is less.

Also, please refrain from calling out people based off their stats, I'm sure it was to raise a valid point, but it's rude and was an invalid comparison.

 

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On the contrary.  Any Strike CV can light up an opposing team.  Strike CVs have the capability to literally sink enough ships to swing a losing effort into a victorious one.  Air Superiority doesn't do that.  The best Air Superiority can hope for is troll the opposing CV(s) and hope the team can do the rest, because your damage capability sucks.  Strike, OTOH, sinks and damages ships, and that has direct, very obvious effects on a match:  With fewer enemy ships, the better your chances of winning.

 

There are good Strike players out there that will wipe the other team despite an Air Superiority CV there.  I'm no longer at that quality, but I've seen more than enough Strike players do that.  Hell, Strike CVs going out and sinking the opposing CV is one way to get Air Superiority :teethhappy:

 

The other factor is the rewards in Credits & XPs.  Well played Air Superiority where you shoot down tons of planes are rewarded poorly.  Damage and sinkings, which Strike is built for, directly corresponds to way better Credit & XP rewards.

 

 

Yep.  You seen what IJN Strike CVs can do when going after DDs?  :ohmy:

 

"Say good night, Gracie!"

====

 

Someone had a recent thread talking about his experience going 2/0/2 Lexington, going into great detail.  It's not good.

====

Throwing this picture in.

DuY2dMF.jpg

I had a pretty mediocre performance.  There wasn't much of a "Push" mentality in the team overall.  But the CV of our team, a Hiryu Strike Spec (2/2/2) was one of the guys carrying the team to success.  How?

1)  Sank the opposing Ranger at the beginning.  Our CV analyzed his stats while the match loaded and deemed Ranger was 1/1/1, so he used Hiryu's 2/2/2 to absolutely crush Ranger.  Air Superiority established... Via STRIKE SPEC!  Before he launched, he explained to the team what he was going to do, one of the guys wanted him to go after a BB first, then the CV, but he opted to go straight to the CV first, thereby negating for the entirety of the match the threat of enemy air strikes.  USN TB squadrons are no joke and I was glad to not have to dodge 6 plane TB airstrikes.

 

2)  Sending his bombers to both west and eastern sides, especially East since our guys there were badly outnumbered.

 

3)  Spotted enemy DDs, harassed them with bombers.

 

4) Quite late in the match, a Farragut showed up with a head-on encounter with our CV.  Hiryu nimbly turned away and maneuvered to only get hit by 1 torp.  With Farragut spotted, nearby ships began peppering him, he also sends bombers to drop torps in a criss-cross pattern... Farragut gets sunk.  Air Superiority CVs have very little weapons to defend themselves in such a surprise encounter, most especially USN ones.

 

You simply can't do all that with limited Fighter Specs.  You shoot down some planes then that's it, you can't affect too much with your limited damage capability.  If you were Fighter Spec, you're not going to carry the team and sink ships.  You can only watch as the team Potatoes itself into defeat.  A Strike CV, OTOH, can take matters into their own hands to try and prevent that.

I disagree, I carry my team by keeping enemy DD's spotted.  The game I had today, because of my spotting all enemy DD were dead within first 5 minutes or so.  Without the threat of enemy DD, My team pushed the enemy team to their base in the fault line map.  Their BB and CA never left the base.

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Note also that premium account status skews your average XP statistic.

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Winning gives a +50% boost to base xp so if you win more you get more xp, even if the xp you "earn" is less.

Also, please refrain from calling out people based off their stats, I'm sure it was to raise a valid point, but it's rude and was an invalid comparison.

 

 

They called me out first, just returning the favor.  I hate being a stat [edited], but a lot of people consider it more important than anything else.

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Okay, seriously, you can't start a thread with:

 

Why do I have a 70.59% W/R in my A/S Ryujo?

 

and then later claim:

 

They called me out first, just returning the favor.  I hate being a stat [edited], but a lot of people consider it more important than anything else.

 

Now, back to the topic at hand, there are a number of reasons why I suspect you'd see W/R's that high. First and foremost, small sample size. 18 games is tiny. You can't make strong inferences off a 13-5 record. Second, IJN AS isn't the kind of pure AS most people complain about: it still has both torpedo and dive bombers. Third, Ryujo is particularly powerful compared to its much more common USN competitor (Independence) at that tier. This is due to a combination of whole-number rounding giving it 11% more planes in the air simultaneously, two additional units to spot with, AND a 30% larger hangar.

 

So, congratulations to you on your 13-5 record with 3/1/1 Ryujo, but I find your claims about the state of carrier balance to be unconvincing.

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Guess I will just have to play it more.  Got an Hiryu today, but went linkdead at the start of the match.  I do A/S not because I am lazy, just that with only 4 planes in a squad, enemy AA eats me up.  I look who is driving AA heavy ships on the enemy team, but now even BB have good AA.  Any tactics that would help?  I was wondering if waiting until the battle is half over (when AA modules have been destroyed) is a good idea.

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Okay, seriously, you can't start a thread with:

 

 

and then later claim:

 

 

Now, back to the topic at hand, there are a number of reasons why I suspect you'd see W/R's that high. First and foremost, small sample size. 18 games is tiny. You can't make strong inferences off a 13-5 record. Second, IJN AS isn't the kind of pure AS most people complain about: it still has both torpedo and dive bombers. Third, Ryujo is particularly powerful compared to its much more common USN competitor (Independence) at that tier. This is due to a combination of whole-number rounding giving it 11% more planes in the air simultaneously, two additional units to spot with, AND a 30% larger hangar.

 

So, congratulations to you on your 13-5 record with 3/1/1 Ryujo, but I find your claims about the state of carrier balance to be unconvincing.

 

And what if my record becomes 35 out of 50?  Is that enough evidence?

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