Jump to content
You need to play a total of 10 battles to post in this section.
Destroyer_Fuyuzuki

Wargaming, what on earth is this? - Yorck

40 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

790
[JKSDF]
Privateers, Supertester
928 posts
2,981 battles

Ever stared at the Yorck, wondering "Where the bloody hell did this ship even come from? WG, explain pls!". Well, I have, and I've decided to do some looking about and made a post about it.

 

At the loss of World War One, the German Navy (still the Kaiserliche marine at the time) found itself interned at Scapa Flow in British waters, due to be turned over largely to the Royal Navy. To prevent this, the German sailors scuttled their own ships - in nearly an instant, a total of 75 ships went to the bottom, including 12 battleships and 5 battlecruisers. By 1921, the newly instated Reichsmarine had a fleet of largely extremely outdated cruisers and pre-dreadnought battleships, largely for self defence. The Reichsmarine, being subject to the Treaty of Versailles instead of the Washington Naval Treaty, were allowed to replace their cruisers when they turned 20, and by 1922 this applied to all of them (showing just how outdated the warships were that the Reichsmarine had). Going by in-game information, the Yorck was designed in 1923, one year after all the cruisers had turned 20, so it makes sense that her design would be slated for replacing one of these said outdated cruisers, much like Emden before her, built from 1921 to 1925. Yorck's design, though, is an interesting one.

 

iheNJ2b.jpg

 

Both visually and in terms of gameplay, Yorck appears very similar to Admiral Hipper, despite the roughly 15 year gap between the two designs. First and foremost, Fork's guns are about 14 years older than the ship they're on. Cork's in-game unique 210mm L/45 SK L/45 only existed on one other ship, the last armored cruiser of the Kaiserliche Marine, SMS Blücher:

FTjWgWL.jpgpV6ZHdH.jpg

As seen above, Börk's guns are identical to the 21cm dual mounts on the Blücher. Blücher herself, however, did not survive WW1 and thus never joined the Reichsmarine. Considering her timeframe, Pork is quite modern; comparable to the British County-Class and the Italian Trento-Class heavy cruisers. Stork's designs actually originate from initial drawings that lead to the Deutschland-class Panzerschiffes, as seen below.

4JCOnRa.jpg

 

The base design of Fig. 2, dubbed here 'Entwurf I/10' is nearly identical to that of the Pitchfork's. Same gun layout, same smokestacks, same torpedo layout. Squark's initial designs came from the designs of Vice Admiral Hans Zenker, pushed for new warships designed to utilise the 10,000 tonnage limit of the displacement and the 11" gun calibre limit to create the most ideal warship possible. Dork was initially a fairly modern cruiser, with both a powerful main artillery complimented by heavy torpedo armament, whilst still maintaining decent levels of protection, and the design for the 21cm gun already existed. Simple, but nevertheless this design slowly evolved into the Deutschland-class Panzerschiffes. Spork's location in the game is similar to that of the Nicholas' - at first, it appears to be oddly out-of-place, and raises such questions as "Why is the Nicholas, a paper ship, at Tier V?", when a little bit of research reveals that there was no completed destroyer design between the Clemson's and the Farragut's. Certainly, the Torque we get in-game is far more modern than the original 1922/1923 designs, including modern AA guns and a catapult fighter. 

All in All, Yorck's turned out to be quite an enjoyable ship.

 

 

I've taken a bit of a hiatus on doing these sorts of posts, but I've decided to come back and take a look at other such 'mysterious' ships, such as the Myougi or the Nicholas, as mentioned above. 

Thanks for reading, and see you out on the high seas, captains! :honoring:

 

I swear to god i'm not misspelling these names deliberately. 

  • Cool 36

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,321
[GWG]
[GWG]
Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters
20,886 posts
11,620 battles

You have way too much time on your hands, good work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
368 posts
2,436 battles

I've been looking into the background and lineage of the German cruisers found in WoW's.

 

Thanks for the info DF!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
792
[-K-]
-Members-, WoWS Community Contributors
2,251 posts
10,057 battles

Outstanding post, thank you.


I have looked for similar "what in the hell did they base this design on" information for Roon and Hindenburg and come up empty; if you find something, I would love to know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26,595
[HINON]
Supertester
21,229 posts
14,826 battles

Roon seems to be a WG fantasy, the logical extension of a WWII era heavy cruiser based on the design philosophy of the WWI era K- and N- classes.

 

Hindenburg I think is based on designed for the mythical 'super Hipper' design some people mentioned some time in some place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,960
[SYN]
[SYN]
Members
7,838 posts
12,054 battles

I've seen somewhere that there was an intention to salvage Blucher's guns?

 

Any credence to that or would these have been new-build 8.1ins?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
790
[JKSDF]
Privateers, Supertester
928 posts
2,981 battles

I've seen somewhere that there was an intention to salvage Blucher's guns?

 

Any credence to that or would these have been new-build 8.1ins?

 

I've never read anything about plans to salvage Blucher's guns. She was the only warship to carry those 21cm L/45 guns, as she was the last Armored Cruiser before Battlecruisers took over their role.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
10,007 posts

 

 

It isn't just that the design of the 210mm guns existed, but there were unused spares of the 210mm rifles still left somewhere.  The entire 1/10 Design Proposal was to make use of the spare guns.  

 

The design 1/26 won anyway, the proposal was to lead to the Panzerschiffes.  The 210mm guns were reallocated to the German Army, which in World War 2 was used for coastal artillery.

 

For use as coastal artillery, a new HE shell was designed and manufactured for the guns, longer and more aerodynamically streamlined.  And that is the shell that you use on the Yorck right now for HE.  However, there is no new AP shell that was designed, the AP shells were still of WW1 stock.  Which is why the AP shells on the Yorck travel slowly requiring lofty arcs to reach at range, compared to the more modern more aerodynamic HE shells.

 

 

Edited by Eisennagel
  • Cool 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
790
[JKSDF]
Privateers, Supertester
928 posts
2,981 battles

 

 

It isn't just that the design of the 210mm guns existed, but there were unused spares of the 210mm rifles still left somewhere.  The entire 1/10 Design Proposal was to make use of the spare guns.  

 

The design 1/26 won anyway, the proposal was to lead to the Panzerschiffes.  The 210mm guns were reallocated to the German Army, which in World War 2 was used for coastal artillery.

 

For use as coastal artillery, a new HE shell was designed and manufactured for the guns, longer and more aerodynamically streamlined.  And that is the shell that you use on the Yorck right now for HE.  However, there is no new AP shell that was designed, the AP shells were still of WW1 stock.  Which is why the AP shells on the Yorck travel slowly requiring lofty arcs to reach at range, compared to the more modern more aerodynamic HE shells.

 

 

It's not surprising that there were leftovers; they usually made twice the guns needed for each ship. (Hence why Nazi Germany had spare 38cm SKC/34 turrets they sold to the USSR, which were planned to be put onto the Kronshtadt-class Battlecruisers.)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
884
[FURIA]
WoWS Community Contributors
1,779 posts
5,733 battles

Finally someone explained where the rotten Pork came from!

 

One thing , why name it York? There is a very iconic ship with se same name in the Royal Navy. Even worst, is the head of the class. If it is a paper ship they could choose a name like Wihelmshaven, Kiel, Rosstock, o my favorite one Rammstein? In that time Reichmarine used city names I think.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
792
[-K-]
-Members-, WoWS Community Contributors
2,251 posts
10,057 battles

One thing , why name it York? There is a very iconic ship with se same name in the Royal Navy. Even worst, is the head of the class. If it is a paper ship they could choose a name like Wihelmshaven, Kiel, Rosstock, o my favorite one Rammstein? In that time Reichmarine used city names I think.  

 

Seems to be named after SMS Yorck, which was itself named after a figure from German history, as was their naval custom.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
10,007 posts

 

 

German ships are only named after places if they are light cruisers --- Dresden, Emden, Koenigsburg, Nurnberg.

 

Above that, starting even with armored and heavy cruisers, they are named after heroes, especially those in Napoleonic history, but not limited to that period, as there are also named those onward and before.

 

Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Blucher, Lutzow, Yorck, Roon, Prinz Eugen, Moltke, Seydlitz, Von der Tann, Goeben.  

 

WW1 added a few names --- Tirpitz, Graf Spee, Sheer.

 

Tradition is continued in the modern Bundeswehr navy.

 

The destroyer Lutjens, named after the admiral who commanded the Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, and led the first and fatal Bismarck run with the Prinz Eugen.  Members of that class is named after Erwin Rommel and Werner Molders, famous WW2 German fighter pilot ace.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
884
[FURIA]
WoWS Community Contributors
1,779 posts
5,733 battles

 

 

German ships are only named after places if they are light cruisers --- Dresden, Emden, Koenigsburg, Nurnberg.

 

Above that, starting even with armored and heavy cruisers, they are named after heroes, especially those in Napoleonic history, but not limited to that period, as there are also named those onward and before.

 

Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Blucher, Lutzow, Yorck, Roon, Prinz Eugen, Moltke, Seydlitz, Von der Tann, Goeben.  

 

WW1 added a few names --- Tirpitz, Graf Spee, Sheer.

 

Tradition is continued in the modern Bundeswehr navy.

 

The destroyer Lutjens, named after the admiral who commanded the Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, and led the first and fatal Bismarck run with the Prinz Eugen.  Members of that class is named after Erwin Rommel and Werner Molders, famous WW2 German fighter pilot ace.

 

 

Thanks for the information. But there must be another Germanic hero that downt share the name of an iconic english ship class.

 Freiherr von Münchhausen :trollface:  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21
[WK]
Members
193 posts
6,726 battles

Thank you for making this topic Destroyer_Fuyuzuki!

I see that it has been a week since the last post... I hope that I my post does not bother any of the forum staff but I must reply to this wonderful topic!

 

I actually had a very good idea what the "York" was thanks to the many books on battleships/warships such as the ones made by Antony Preston like "World's Worst Warships" (I did not have internet access until recently) the books section on Deutschland-class panzerschiffe talked about the different submited designs including one that would look a lot like the future Admiral Hipper-class heavy cruisers so when I seen "York" on World Of Warships set before the Hipper and with elements of Deutschland I believed for sure that it had to be one of those canceled panzerschiffe designs!

 

I am a dedicated fan of "Pocket Battleships" (like my name was not a big enough clue) so I am grateful for Wargaming for including a pocket battleship and a canceled one at that! :honoring: I do not have the Entwurf 1/10 "York" yet but I can tell already that she will be my favorite Reichsmarine ship to play as ! :)

Edited by Pocket_Yorck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
792
[-K-]
-Members-, WoWS Community Contributors
2,251 posts
10,057 battles

I do not have the Entwurf 1/10 "York" yet but I can tell already that she will be my favorite Reichsmarine ship to play as ! :)

 

You will see a lot of Yorck hate in the forums.  I used to be one of those people.

 

Don't believe it.  She is a great ship.  She's very different from the rest of the German line, so you have to be prepared to adapt to her style; you'll probably want a captain dedicated exclusively to her, honestly.  Once you figure out how she drives and get her fitted up right, she's tons of fun and very deadly.

 

 

 NHDmmT6.jpg

 

Edited by SeaRaptor00
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
10,007 posts

It's not surprising that there were leftovers; they usually made twice the guns needed for each ship. (Hence why Nazi Germany had spare 38cm SKC/34 turrets they sold to the USSR, which were planned to be put onto the Kronshtadt-class Battlecruisers.)

 

 

 

Ah but those particular ones were intended to upgrade the Scharnhorst, and the very same ones they later tried to refit into the Gneisenau before that project was scuttled.

 

The reason why they were fitting the Gneisenau with those 15" turrets, was that they didn't have 11" guns and turrets as leftovers when RAF bombing damaged those on the Gneisenau.

 

Actually Stalin was looking to buy the 11" guns and turrets like those on the Scharnhorst for the Kronshtadt when the Soviets was having problems developing that battlecruiser's 12" guns.  But war has already begun and the Twins were all to busy in the sea, Krupp had stopped building the 11" guns and turrets and so cannot sell those to the Soviets, but there were the spare 15" guns and turrets meant to upgrade the Scharnhorst lying somewhere, and Krupp convinced the Soviets to buy them instead.  If Barbarossa never happened, the Soviets could have gotten probably at least a dozen of these guns plus turrets.  

 

If the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau got their 15" turrets, the six 11" gun turrets would have been put into P class Panzerschiffes.   That could have made three ships.

 

It is amazing that the Germans never wasted anything.  Anything and everything is put into some use.

 

All the spare 12" guns for the Kaisers, Koenigs and other dreadnoughts, they were all turned into coastal artillery by WW2, but with modernized, more aerodynamic shells that would give a flatter trajectory, higher striking speeds and greater penetration.  You get these WW2 shells in the game when the Kaiser and Koenig gets upgraded to the second hull.  

 

The spare guns used on the Bayerns were also turned into coastal artillery, and did get a modernized HE shell though that one was left out from the game this time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Eisennagel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
699
[PVE]
Members
2,188 posts
5,198 battles

I am close to unlocking and getting the Yorck. Really appreciate the info you provided. I did a lot of searching and pretty much came up with the same info as you did. Well done!!! :) 

 

Dep

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
124
[CLANB]
Beta Testers
813 posts
7,061 battles

glad to find this post. just started playing yorck, and was looking up gun info, then noticed nothing about the ship popped up. so interesting to see where they got her.   Although, her shells might aswell be in the Luftwaffe when they come back down at max range. Dive bombing anyone?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
792
[-K-]
-Members-, WoWS Community Contributors
2,251 posts
10,057 battles
On ‎1‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 4:58 AM, NightHawkS117 said:

glad to find this post. just started playing yorck, and was looking up gun info, then noticed nothing about the ship popped up. so interesting to see where they got her.   Although, her shells might aswell be in the Luftwaffe when they come back down at max range. Dive bombing anyone?

The official wiki is another good place to look for historical info on paper ships.  Sometimes there's not much, but sometimes we're able to at least provide a couple of links back to reality (as with Roon and Hindenburg).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×