The current state of destroyers

[Bfizzle]

So it seems that destroyers are at an all-time low point in terms of their effectiveness in the game. This is not an angry rant, I want to bring this to attention. So 5.5 seems to have taken a few swings of the nerf bat by changing up higher tier IJN torpedoes and significantly increasing higher caliber AP damage to DD hulls. So a bit of a double nerf there, and this is after introducing radar which is a direct counter to destroyers because a spotted DD is often a dead one, they just don't have the armor or HP to survive concentrated fire so they rely on stealth a lot, which is being taken away. You could already spot a DD for several minutes with a single fighter squad and there are other gunboats that can track them down. Hell even some cruisers can run them down with superior speed. With the AP damage buff to DDs, well now Battleships can get off 1 good salvo and end them with a devastating strike.

 

Now with the nerf to IJN torpedoes at tier VIII+ their firepower has been limited. "Oh but Bfizzle invisible DDs now have to get in close to kill their targets instead of killing my Battleship that hasn't changed course for the last 2 minutes from across the map."  Well you see Timmy, you have yourself to blame for all those times a Kagero diddled you too hard, and getting in close with the implementation of radar and fighter squad spotters make that quite difficult. And since AP shells do more damage now the risk has been maximized. 

 

Now I want you to look at something. Use this link to sort out the average damage of ships and tell me what you see http://www.warshipstats.com/analytics/ because what I see is that destroyers seem to have some of the lowest average damages in the game. Pretty overpowered right? Keep in mind the Shimakaze has around 38k average damage across all servers. Meanwhile 4 of the top 5 spots are held by carriers. Tell me what is balanced here.

Look people, destroyers are not OP and are not in any need of nerfing, the way WG is treating them is going to pretty much kill any enjoyment of playing them and maximize frustration.

 

[whiteshark_us]

lol its a game im sure will all deal with it and have fun within the perimeters of the challenges.

[Harkonen_siegetank]

You're just over exaggerated. The only notable nerf for IJN DD is the torp detection range. The others, not so much. Business as usual for IJN DD.

 

USN DD OTOH... 

[BlazerSparta]

- Average damage is not a reliable stat, and fails to take into consideration the fact that 10k HP off a DD with 20k total is worth a lot more than 10k off a BB with 100k HP. The low destroyer damage numbers are likely due to DDs mostly skirmishing with other destroyers, rather than hunting down BBs. On the other hand, a BB will mostly target other BBs at max range, and CVs are even more able to select BBs to take down.

 

- Warshipstats is not representative, and also does not allow you to filter by date (i.e. data from when CVs were even more ridiculously OP is still dragging CV averages up). If you go to warships.today and filter by 2 weeks, CVs are still overperforming, just not quite so ridiculously.

 

- I honestly don't think this torpedo nerf is that big a deal. Any DD that spots you when you close in more to launch would have detected the torpedoes if you had launched them from further away, as you would have pre-nerf. Forcing you closer in to launch just decreases the chance your targets will change course before the torps hit them.

 

- Torpedoes detected earlier....meh. High tier ships can't turn for crap anyway.

[Lensar]

 

Been trying to play my shima using the 9.6km range torps. Sadly, I think I'm about done with it. Had an NO and a DM using radar to spot me while I kept trying to get within 9k range to drop torps on them, all of which they easily dodged, of course.

 

Each time they hit radar, there wasn't anything I could do except turn and run hoping I could either out distance or outlast it. In the end, there wasn't anything I could do. I tried charging the DM to ram him, but he was able to kill me before I got close.

 

Here's the thing: Radar is a horrible terrible mechanic and WG should be embarrassed to have put something like it in the game. They didn't even have the wherewithall to show me when a ship uses it's radar. So while I tried to stay 10k away firing ineffective torps to try and spook them into wasting it, I had absolutely no idea if they fell for it or not, since I'd have to be detected by radar to know if they used their radar.

 

This is fun for no one. And yes, i get it, WG doesn't care. They only balance for Russia, etc. Doesn't matter to me. All I know is that there's nothing at all fun about this. So i don't want to do it.

 

So people can whine and complain about torps and DDs and say they're happy there will be fewer of them in the game, that's fine. Any one with a clue knows that the only problem with torps are the people who are either too ignorant or too stubborn to learn to be aware of them. But that's fine, too. Because when you start causing people like me to find the game unfun because of, quite frankly, amateur game design mistakes like this stuff, you're going to start losing alot of customers. And I'm pretty sure WoWS doesn't have much of a cushion when it comes to losing folks and if a decent chunk of them go away, the game is gonna be a very sorry state indeed.

[1nc0mp3t3nt_1]

So it seems that destroyers are at an all-time low point in terms of their effectiveness in the game. This is not an angry rant, I want to bring this to attention. So 5.5 seems to have taken a few swings of the nerf bat by changing up higher tier IJN torpedoes and significantly increasing higher caliber AP damage to DD hulls. So a bit of a double nerf there, and this is after introducing radar which is a direct counter to destroyers because a spotted DD is often a dead one, they just don't have the armor or HP to survive concentrated fire so they rely on stealth a lot, which is being taken away. You could already spot a DD for several minutes with a single fighter squad and there are other gunboats that can track them down. Hell even some cruisers can run them down with superior speed. With the AP damage buff to DDs, well now Battleships can get off 1 good salvo and end them with a devastating strike.

Now with the nerf to IJN torpedoes at tier VIII+ their firepower has been limited. "Oh but Bfizzle invisible DDs now have to get in close to kill their targets instead of killing my Battleship that hasn't changed course for the last 2 minutes from across the map."  Well you see Timmy, you have yourself to blame for all those times a Kagero diddled you too hard, and getting in close with the implementation of radar and fighter squad spotters make that quite difficult. And since AP shells do more damage now the risk has been maximized. 

Now I want you to look at something. Use this link to sort out the average damage of ships and tell me what you see http://www.warshipstats.com/analytics/ because what I see is that destroyers seem to have some of the lowest average damages in the game. Pretty overpowered right? Meanwhile 4 of the top 5 spots are held by carriers. Tell me what is balanced here.

Look people, destroyers are not OP and are not in any need of nerfing, the way WG is treating them is going to pretty much kill any enjoyment of playing them and maximize frustration.

 

The only DD I ever too issue with is the Shimakaze with its turbo 20Km torps. Even with a reduction to 16Km range, that gives the shima far too much leeway to safely launch torps and never be seen if there is no carrier present

[Helipro]

I saw a team tonight with 3 shimis. That team still won, and the 3 shimis acounted for 8 of the kills. I dont think they are hurting that bad. 

[Sinisstarr]

[Aduial]

- Average damage is not a reliable stat, and fails to take into consideration the fact that 10k HP off a DD with 20k total is worth a lot more than 10k off a BB with 100k HP. The low destroyer damage numbers are likely due to DDs mostly skirmishing with other destroyers, rather than hunting down BBs. On the other hand, a BB will mostly target other BBs at max range, and CVs are even more able to select BBs to take down.

 

- Warshipstats is not representative, and also does not allow you to filter by date (i.e. data from when CVs were even more ridiculously OP is still dragging CV averages up). If you go to warships.today and filter by 2 weeks, CVs are still overperforming, just not quite so ridiculously.

 

- I honestly don't think this torpedo nerf is that big a deal. Any DD that spots you when you close in more to launch would have detected the torpedoes if you had launched them from further away, as you would have pre-nerf. Forcing you closer in to launch just decreases the chance your targets will change course before the torps hit them.

 

- Torpedoes detected earlier....meh. High tier ships can't turn for crap anyway.

 

The problem is more about the fact that you now have to get into radar range in order to torp, meaning you have to put yourself at risk a lot more than you did before. To be honest, i would have accepted any two of the the recent nerfs to DDs, but their nerfing the class with 4-5 nerfs at once. I really don't get why they increased overpen damage to DDs anyways. Overpen damage was fine before, allowing the BB to defend itself from DDs that were not too high in health. I think that particular change was made because of BB players who complained that they couldn't defend themselves one on one against a DD. The thing is, of course you can't. That's the whole point, and you're supposed to stay with your cruisers or something in order to stay safe. Most BB players from what i see don't do that at all and just rush in a expect to be able to 1v1 any ship they meet. BBs don't have to be invincible, and i thought the DD- BB balance was just fine before. You might think i am biased in favor of DDs, but i don't really have a bias for a particular ship class. It just seems like DDs have been hit with too many nerfs. All i hope for is that the Devs will have some sense and remove at least one of the many nerfs. 

Also, another thing i want to say is that there is no point of removing 20km torps in my opinion. First of all,after 20km the torps will be too spread out so almost any ship will be able to pass through them, and second of all, there's a high chance that they will be spotted by planes or DDs before they actually come close enough to hit anything, and third, i don't really think anyone does torp from 20km, if they do, then they aren't going to be rewarded all that much and those bad players can just waste their time trying to get torp hits from 20k. 

[ryuukei8569]

 

The problem is more about the fact that you now have to get into radar range in order to torp, meaning you have to put yourself at risk a lot more than you did before. To be honest, i would have accepted any two of the the recent nerfs to DDs, but their nerfing the class with 4-5 nerfs at once. I really don't get why they increased overpen damage to DDs anyways. Overpen damage was fine before, allowing the BB to defend itself from DDs that were not too high in health. I think that particular change was made because of BB players who complained that they couldn't defend themselves one on one against a DD. The thing is, of course you can't. That's the whole point, and you're supposed to stay with your cruisers or something in order to stay safe. Most BB players from what i see don't do that at all and just rush in a expect to be able to 1v1 any ship they meet. BBs don't have to be invincible, and i thought the DD- BB balance was just fine before. You might think i am biased in favor of DDs, but i really have a bias for a particular ship class. It just seems like DDs have been hit with too many torps. All i hope for is that the Devs will have some sense and remove at least one of the many nerfs. 

Also, another thing i want to say is that there is no point of removing 20km torps in my opinion. First of all,after 20km the torps will be too spread out so almost any ship will be able to pass through them, and second of all, there's a high chance that they will be spotted by planes or DDs before they actually come close enough to hit anything, and third, i don't really think anyone does torp from 20km, if they do, then they aren't going to be rewarded all that much and those bad players can just waste their time trying to get torps from 20k. 

 

Im pretty sure overpen damage hasn't been changed. it still seems to be the same it always has been. Plus the patch notes don't mention anything about any changes to overpen damage. Besides, the only DD's that got hit with a nerf in this round was the top tier IJN DD's. RU and USN DD's haven't changed and all DD's had their turret survivability buffed by quite a bit. Plus the reduction in rudder and engine disable time benefits DD's the most since they are far more likely to lose the rudder or engines than any other class. So all in all DD's got off pretty well with this patch. Though granted, its USN and RU DD's that got the benefit far more than IJN.

 

[Wulfgarn]

So it seems that destroyers are at an all-time low point in terms of their effectiveness in the game. This is not an angry rant, I want to bring this to attention. So 5.5 seems to have taken a few swings of the nerf bat by changing up higher tier IJN torpedoes and significantly increasing higher caliber AP damage to DD hulls. So a bit of a double nerf there, and this is after introducing radar which is a direct counter to destroyers because a spotted DD is often a dead one, they just don't have the armor or HP to survive concentrated fire so they rely on stealth a lot, which is being taken away. You could already spot a DD for several minutes with a single fighter squad and there are other gunboats that can track them down. Hell even some cruisers can run them down with superior speed. With the AP damage buff to DDs, well now Battleships can get off 1 good salvo and end them with a devastating strike.

Now with the nerf to IJN torpedoes at tier VIII+ their firepower has been limited. "Oh but Bfizzle invisible DDs now have to get in close to kill their targets instead of killing my Battleship that hasn't changed course for the last 2 minutes from across the map."  Well you see Timmy, you have yourself to blame for all those times a Kagero diddled you too hard, and getting in close with the implementation of radar and fighter squad spotters make that quite difficult. And since AP shells do more damage now the risk has been maximized. 

Now I want you to look at something. Use this link to sort out the average damage of ships and tell me what you see http://www.warshipstats.com/analytics/ because what I see is that destroyers seem to have some of the lowest average damages in the game. Pretty overpowered right? Meanwhile 4 of the top 5 spots are held by carriers. Tell me what is balanced here.

Look people, destroyers are not OP and are not in any need of nerfing, the way WG is treating them is going to pretty much kill any enjoyment of playing them and maximize frustration.

 

 

 

Been trying to play my shima using the 9.6km range torps. Sadly, I think I'm about done with it. Had an NO and a DM using radar to spot me while I kept trying to get within 9k range to drop torps on them, all of which they easily dodged, of course.

 

Each time they hit radar, there wasn't anything I could do except turn and run hoping I could either out distance or outlast it. In the end, there wasn't anything I could do. I tried charging the DM to ram him, but he was able to kill me before I got close.

 

Here's the thing: Radar is a horrible terrible mechanic and WG should be embarrassed to have put something like it in the game. They didn't even have the wherewithall to show me when a ship uses it's radar. So while I tried to stay 10k away firing ineffective torps to try and spook them into wasting it, I had absolutely no idea if they fell for it or not, since I'd have to be detected by radar to know if they used their radar.

 

This is fun for no one. And yes, i get it, WG doesn't care. They only balance for Russia, etc. Doesn't matter to me. All I know is that there's nothing at all fun about this. So i don't want to do it.

 

So people can whine and complain about torps and DDs and say they're happy there will be fewer of them in the game, that's fine. Any one with a clue knows that the only problem with torps are the people who are either too ignorant or too stubborn to learn to be aware of them. But that's fine, too. Because when you start causing people like me to find the game unfun because of, quite frankly, amateur game design mistakes like this stuff, you're going to start losing alot of customers. And I'm pretty sure WoWS doesn't have much of a cushion when it comes to losing folks and if a decent chunk of them go away, the game is gonna be a very sorry state indeed.

 

 

The problem is more about the fact that you now have to get into radar range in order to torp, meaning you have to put yourself at risk a lot more than you did before. To be honest, i would have accepted any two of the the recent nerfs to DDs, but their nerfing the class with 4-5 nerfs at once. I really don't get why they increased overpen damage to DDs anyways. Overpen damage was fine before, allowing the BB to defend itself from DDs that were not too high in health. I think that particular change was made because of BB players who complained that they couldn't defend themselves one on one against a DD. The thing is, of course you can't. That's the whole point, and you're supposed to stay with your cruisers or something in order to stay safe. Most BB players from what i see don't do that at all and just rush in a expect to be able to 1v1 any ship they meet. BBs don't have to be invincible, and i thought the DD- BB balance was just fine before. You might think i am biased in favor of DDs, but i really have a bias for a particular ship class. It just seems like DDs have been hit with too many torps. All i hope for is that the Devs will have some sense and remove at least one of the many nerfs. 

Also, another thing i want to say is that there is no point of removing 20km torps in my opinion. First of all,after 20km the torps will be too spread out so almost any ship will be able to pass through them, and second of all, there's a high chance that they will be spotted by planes or DDs before they actually come close enough to hit anything, and third, i don't really think anyone does torp from 20km, if they do, then they aren't going to be rewarded all that much and those bad players can just waste their time trying to get torps from 20k. 

 

Amen and Hallelujah!!

 

 

[Misato]

No need to nerf destroyers?  So 6+ per team at top tiers was fine?  Made for dynamic and fun games?  Sorry, but no.  Something did need to be done.  We can debate if this was a good change or not, but I don't think there's any room to say that things were fine as they were.

[Wulfgarn]

No need to nerf destroyers?  So 6+ per team at top tiers was fine?  Made for dynamic and fun games?  Sorry, but no.  Something did need to be done.  We can debate if this was a good change or not, but I don't think there's any room to say that things were fine as they were.

 

Then limit the number of DD's per game.... I'll add that WG thinks of this as a "last resort".

[Misato]

Limiting the number of destroyers isn't a fix, it's a lame band aid.  There's a reason for so many, and you can't just ignore that.

 

If you just put a limit on the number of destroyers you'll have a lot in cue that won't be put into matches fast enough and that number will build and build until they hit the 5 minute limit and then a truly wakky match happens.  Want to play in a match with 10 or 11 destroyers per side?  That would be a truly bizarre game.  Maybe you'd enjoy that, maybe a few people would, but I doubt many.  I don't think most destroyer captains would like it, and I know that I personally would hate it.

 

You need to address the underlying issue, not just put a limit on destroyers and pretend it fixes anything.

[MrDeaf]

 

The problem is more about the fact that you now have to get into radar range in order to torp, meaning you have to put yourself at risk a lot more than you did before. To be honest, i would have accepted any two of the the recent nerfs to DDs, but their nerfing the class with 4-5 nerfs at once. I really don't get why they increased overpen damage to DDs anyways. Overpen damage was fine before, allowing the BB to defend itself from DDs that were not too high in health. I think that particular change was made because of BB players who complained that they couldn't defend themselves one on one against a DD. The thing is, of course you can't. That's the whole point, and you're supposed to stay with your cruisers or something in order to stay safe. Most BB players from what i see don't do that at all and just rush in a expect to be able to 1v1 any ship they meet. BBs don't have to be invincible, and i thought the DD- BB balance was just fine before. You might think i am biased in favor of DDs, but i really have a bias for a particular ship class. It just seems like DDs have been hit with too many torps. All i hope for is that the Devs will have some sense and remove at least one of the many nerfs. 

Also, another thing i want to say is that there is no point of removing 20km torps in my opinion. First of all,after 20km the torps will be too spread out so almost any ship will be able to pass through them, and second of all, there's a high chance that they will be spotted by planes or DDs before they actually come close enough to hit anything, and third, i don't really think anyone does torp from 20km, if they do, then they aren't going to be rewarded all that much and those bad players can just waste their time trying to get torps from 20k. 

 

1. So you mean to say that you actually need to take a risk in order to sink something? like cruisers and battleships?

2. If you want to get your torpedo hit rate up, you will go with the short and fast torps anyways. Having 20km stray torps that missed their mark, but hit something else aren't a mark of skill. It's just luck.

 

The game shouldn't reward players who don't take any risks and this holds true for sniping with BBs from 20km away. The difference between BB shells at 20km and DD torps at 20km, is that BB shells don't have a chance to randomly hit ships along the way, as they are lobbed through the air. This is unlike torps, which are deadly for their entire 20km run.

[ardley]

As a DD player, DD's are NOT nerfed. However the Shima got a crazy buff! Grinding like hell to it right now!

 

[Sillypuddi]

Yeah, in my opinion, IJN DD's got a huge buff. A lot of things I've seen in most of the posts are just positional errors. I've had no issue looting and pillaging in my Fubuki with the 10k tops, that have the upgrade on so they're 8k. I've also found myself firing my main batteries a lot more, had a couple games where I did hit with torps but had over 200 shell hits, and still broke 75k damage. If you're having issues with Radar, try avoiding those ships. I know that sounds crazy, but no one said you had to go up against those ships and no one said you had to rush forward immediately and not see where most the ships are headed. At some point in time, you're going to have to hold yourself accountable for your positioning errors and quit blaming ship nerfs and buffs, because honestly this patch put IJN Tier 8-10 DD's head and shoulders above US and RUS ones.

[MrDeaf]

Yeah, in my opinion, IJN DD's got a huge buff. A lot of things I've seen in most of the posts are just positional errors. I've had no issue looting and pillaging in my Fubuki with the 10k tops, that have the upgrade on so they're 8k. I've also found myself firing my main batteries a lot more, had a couple games where I did hit with torps but had over 200 shell hits, and still broke 75k damage. If you're having issues with Radar, try avoiding those ships. I know that sounds crazy, but no one said you had to go up against those ships and no one said you had to rush forward immediately and not see where most the ships are headed. At some point in time, you're going to have to hold yourself accountable for your positioning errors and quit blaming ship nerfs and buffs, because honestly this patch put IJN Tier 8-10 DD's head and shoulders above US and RUS ones.

 

not entirely...

 

Fletcher and Gearing are currently superior in armament than Kagero and Shimakaze.

This is thanks to having torps with lower detection ranges, despite having similar speed, range and damage.

 

Benson and Fubuki feel balanced.

[Sillypuddi]

Tier 8, imho, is the most balanced Tier. I should've explained my DD comparison a bit better. I was referring to a players ability to kill other ships with Torpedoes. Yes, do a Fletcher and Gearing murder a Shimmy and a Kagero, absolutely. But being able to fire way 81knt torps at <7km is bork'd. People complained themselves into getting Tier 8-10 pre-nerf Minekazes that can one shot you one Torp salvo. 

[Wulfgarn]

No need to nerf destroyers?  So 6+ per team at top tiers was fine?  Made for dynamic and fun games?  Sorry, but no.  Something did need to be done.  We can debate if this was a good change or not, but I don't think there's any room to say that things were fine as they were.

 

Limiting the number of destroyers isn't a fix, it's a lame band aid.  There's a reason for so many, and you can't just ignore that.

 

If you just put a limit on the number of destroyers you'll have a lot in cue that won't be put into matches fast enough and that number will build and build until they hit the 5 minute limit and then a truly wakky match happens.  Want to play in a match with 10 or 11 destroyers per side?  That would be a truly bizarre game.  Maybe you'd enjoy that, maybe a few people would, but I doubt many.  I don't think most destroyer captains would like it, and I know that I personally would hate it.

 

You need to address the underlying issue, not just put a limit on destroyers and pretend it fixes anything.

 

Your statement was about having 6+ players in higher Tier games. Are you saying everything that's been done is going to make players not play DD's at higher Tiers?

[MrDeaf]

Tier 8, imho, is the most balanced Tier. I should've explained my DD comparison a bit better. I was referring to a players ability to kill other ships with Torpedoes. Yes, do a Fletcher and Gearing murder a Shimmy and a Kagero, absolutely. But being able to fire way 81knt torps at <7km is bork'd. People complained themselves into getting Tier 8-10 pre-nerf Minekazes that can one shot you one Torp salvo. 

 

Yeah, those 8km F3 Zao torps will require skill to use.

 

The only issue I have with them is that I think they reload a bit slow when compared to what Fletcher gets.

[Misato]

 

 

Your statement was about having 6+ players in higher Tier games. Are you saying everything that's been done is going to make players not play DD's at higher Tiers?

 

I'm saying something has to be done.  It remains to be seen if what has been done will work out.  Honestly, it will take days, probably more like a few weeks to see real population trends, if any.

[Sillypuddi]

@MrDeaf If you check my stats I haven't played any Tier 9-10 matches. I like Tier 8. I believe all the Tier 8's match up well with their higher tier counterparts, aside from CV's and even then they have a the ability to be useful and carry to a point. I feel the reload speed to comparable and can put you in situations where you can get your reload quick enough to use two slavoes before you're in a position where you either get deleted or have to reposition. I'm a strong believer in positioning yourself to succeed with whatever ship you're in. I still get myself in tight spots though, but it just forces you to elevate your play and win the fight or die lol. 

[MrDeaf]

@MrDeaf If you check my stats I haven't played any Tier 9-10 matches. I like Tier 8. I believe all the Tier 8's match up well with their higher tier counterparts, aside from CV's and even then they have a the ability to be useful and carry to a point. I feel the reload speed to comparable and can put you in situations where you can get your reload quick enough to use two slavoes before you're in a position where you either get deleted or have to reposition. I'm a strong believer in positioning yourself to succeed with whatever ship you're in. I still get myself in tight spots though, but it just forces you to elevate your play and win the fight or die lol. 

 

But T9 is so fun in stock ships :v

 

The main thing that breaks balance and causes strange power inflation for T9 ships is the final upgrade modification you can equip on the ship.

One of the modifications allows torpedoes to be reloaded faster, but WG decided they wanted to balance this between T8 and T9, by giving extremely long reloads for T9 ships.

[guma_Z_majtek]

Hi guys!

 

I got some questons. Was the Fubuki/Kagero/Shima captains reseted? And does the camtain must sit in dd or can he be in reserve (ofc trained for proper ship)?