The Rock-Paper-Scissors of World of Warships

[RMS_Gigantic]

In World of Tanks, there is a rock-paper-scissors that I perceive to be as follows:

 

 

Light tanks are most effective against tank destroyers and artillery.

Medium tanks are most effective against light tanks and artillery.

Heavy tanks are most effective against medium and (typically) light tanks.

Tank destroyers are most effective against heavy and light tanks.

Artillery is effective against tank destroyers and heavy tanks.

 

 

 

In World of Warplanes, the general pecking order is as follows:

 

Fighters are most effective against bombers, which are most effective against ground targets, which are most effective against fighters.

 

 

 

 

However, I am having some difficulty finding a similar cycle for World of Warships. The main site might be most accurate in its version, which would be more complex than World of Tanks or World of Warplanes:

 

Destroyers take down battleships

Cruisers take down destroyers

Battleships take down cruisers

Depending on circumstance, aircraft carriers can either take down all of these vehicles, or fall victim to any of them.

 

 

 

Your thoughts?

[Spanisharmada]

The same one you said

[anonym_auUiRfWCi1jI]

Play NF to get a better idea hos this plays out.

[KaiserinStark]

By NF logic then:

BB's -> BB's, DD's, CA/CL's and CV's

CA/CL's -> CA/CL's, DD's, CV's

DD's -> CV's, DD's, CA/CL's

CV's -> BB's, CA's

[Coldt]

RMS_Gigantic, on 29 September 2012 - 01:28 AM, said:

1. Destroyers take down battleships
2. Cruisers take down destroyers
3. Battleships take down cruisers
4. Depending on circumstance, aircraft carriers can either take down all of these vehicles, or fall victim to any of them.

1. is a big no, destroyers stand little to no chance against battleships

Destroyers hunt down carriers
Carriers sink battleships
Battleships demolish cruisers
Cruisers splatter destroyers

Every ship type can of course take on any others in many circumstances, but this is what I see as the class roles.

[Quaffer]

Coldt, on 29 September 2012 - 03:19 AM, said:

1. is a big no, destroyers stand little to no chance against battleships

Don't count your kills before they are sunk.  Destroyers are fast, nimble, and armed with torpedoes.  If they are foolishly skippered they are history but a small squadron working together have a decent chance.  Remember the bb can only target one at a time.

And on that note:

Any fleet that works as a gaggle of independent brawlers is likely to lose.  The fleet that can work together is likely to win.  Strong leadership and willingness to follow instructions even if it means taking one for the team will win out.

The Romans did not win battles because the were better fighters.  They won battles because their soldiers fought as units, not as a in-cohesive group of warriors.

The people who figure out what the roll of each ship class is and how to work together are going to clean up.  Time, after time, after time.  I would like to see more threads discussing fleet tactics and less threads extolling the virtues of a particular vessel or class of vessel.

Surely we can come up with more ideas than crossing the T.

[Lemelisk1]

Quaffer, on 29 September 2012 - 03:55 AM, said:

The Romans did not win battles because the were better fighters.  They won battles because their soldiers fought as units, not as a in-cohesive group of warriors.

but the Romans were for the most part better soldiers, and they had a bigger army than most of their enemies

[Flintwikk]

The only way a Destroyer can put up a fight against surface targets successfull is if it is a DDG class.

[Gigaton]

RMS_Gigantic, on 29 September 2012 - 01:28 AM, said:

Destroyers take down battleships
Cruisers take down destroyers
Battleships take down cruisers
Depending on circumstance, aircraft carriers can either take down all of these vehicles, or fall victim to any of them.

I'm partial to this. It's roughly what I suggested before these forums existed over at WoT fora. Though in practise, the exact inter-class balance should be somewhat muddied.

Coldt, on 29 September 2012 - 03:19 AM, said:

1. is a big no, destroyers stand little to no chance against battleships

To quote USN period torpedo attack manual: "In a melee, the advantage often lies with the inferior force". :tongue:

Destroyers already have excellent weapon against battleships. As I suggested over at WoT forums, we can marginalize the importance of battleships secondary batteries vs. surface targets by entrusting them to crap shoot bot gunners. If we needed, we can further reduce battleships defenses against destroyers by making their main batteries even less effective weapons against them than they were (even the 8" gun wasn't ideal). Sped up and very powerful torpedos could become a decisive battle winners, and while battleship-to-battleship action would remain important part of the endgagement, light unit (ie. cruiser and destroyer) actions such as the following would become more pivotal and could have more decisive objectives:

(From USN cruiser doctrine U.S.F. 21)

530. The object of the simultaneous attack is to destroy, damage or disperse enemy light forces simultaneously with the conduct of a destroyer torpedo attack on the enemy battleline. The simultaneous attack:

{a} To be successful should be conducted by and attack force superior in strength to the enemy light force.

{b} May be made by inferior force to relive own battleline from an unfavorable tactical situation, by forcing the enemy battleline to maneuver or to prevent the enemy light forces from taking the initiative.

{c} Should be made after the battlelines are engaged.

{d} Need not to be driven home in the face of superior opposition if the unfavorable situation of our own battleline has been relived.

In this attack the normal objective of light cruisers is the defending destroyers and that of heavy cruisers the enemy cruisers, both heavy and light; but preference as gun targets must be given to the enemy ships which are in position most effectively to oppose the destroyer attack, regardless of type. Cooperating cruisers must keep clear of the destroyer attack points. Cruisers will retire with the destroyers, covering their retirement.

[QJW]

lol i just found out about the WOWS Forum but this seems legit

[Lt_Andrev]

Destroyers spot targets for carriers,

Cruisers protect the carriers,

Battleship fight against other battleships,

 

And finally:

Carriers attack all another classes.

[Windhover118]

Quaffer, on 29 September 2012 - 03:55 AM, said:

Don't count your kills before they are sunk.  Destroyers are fast, nimble, and armed with torpedoes.  If they are foolishly skippered they are history but a small squadron working together have a decent chance.  Remember the bb can only target one at a time.

And on that note:

Any fleet that works as a gaggle of independent brawlers is likely to lose.  The fleet that can work together is likely to win.  Strong leadership and willingness to follow instructions even if it means taking one for the team will win out.

The Romans did not win battles because the were better fighters.  They won battles because their soldiers fought as units, not as a in-cohesive group of warriors.

The people who figure out what the roll of each ship class is and how to work together are going to clean up.  Time, after time, after time.  I would like to see more threads discussing fleet tactics and less threads extolling the virtues of a particular vessel or class of vessel.

Surely we can come up with more ideas than crossing the T.

Tactics in this game will be largely based off of the composition of the teams and the layout of the maps. As soon as we learn more about the game, im sure our resident tactical geniuses will come up with a few tricks.

[Gigaton]

Lt_Andrev, on 29 September 2012 - 06:15 AM, said:

Destroyers spot targets for carriers,

Destroyers will likely be the worst scouts in the game due to general lack of seaplanes on them.

[Windhover118]

Gigaton, on 29 September 2012 - 06:28 AM, said:

Destroyers will likely be the worst scouts in the game due to general lack of seaplanes on them.

Destroyers will most likely be the front line scouts. What I mean by that is while the larger ships can launch Seaplanes to find the enemy, they probably wont want to bother with them while they are engaged. It is up to the DDs to keep the target lit up for the entire time the heavier ships are engaged. The DDs will also be making torpedo runs and in general, taking some of the heat off the larger ships.

[Mathayus]

Windhover118, on 29 September 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

Destroyers will most likely be the front line scouts. What I mean by that is while the larger ships can launch Seaplanes to find the enemy, they probably wont want to bother with them while they are engaged. It is up to the DDs to keep the target lit up for the entire time the heavier ships are engaged. The DDs will also be making torpedo runs and in general, taking some of the heat off the larger ships.

Well that is only speculation of course, I think there won't be a very outlined Rock-Paper-Scissors system for WoWs. They will ofcourse aply it (99% of the games has this system if not all) but I think the edges will be quite blurred.
We can see that in WoT, altough mediums aren't supposed to be very effective agains heavies you can steal beat heavies of the same tier in certain circumstances. There is much more involved like terrain, player skill, team composition etc.

[Crag_r]

People are forgetting, much of a destroyers role of scouting has been stolen by carrier (and sea) borne Aircraft. Unless your enemy has unbeatable AA then you will see Destroyers for fill the job of torpedo chuckers

[Lt_Andrev]

Gigaton, on 29 September 2012 - 06:28 AM, said:

Destroyers will likely be the worst scouts in the game due to general lack of seaplanes on them.

True, but they are fastest, smallest and with high ability to change the direction (I don't know this word in english).
So they are target not easy to destroy from long and middle range.

[JeeWeeJ]

Lt_Andrev, on 29 September 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

True, but they are fastest, smallest and with high ability to change the direction (I don't know this word in english).
So they are target not easy to destroy from long and middle range.

Indeed, DD's only need to worry about cruisers, as some could match their speed but do have the guns to easily destroy a DD. Can't wait to drive a DD! :Smile_playing:

[Quaffer]

Lt_Andrev, on 29 September 2012 - 06:15 AM, said:

Destroyers spot targets for carriers,

Why on earth would a carrier require any one to scout for it?  The maps are only 50 or 60 km square.  One plane orbiting the carrier will be able to see the entire map.

[Quaffer]

Lemelisk1, on 29 September 2012 - 04:13 AM, said:

but the Romans were for the most part better soldiers, and they had a bigger army than most of their enemies

The point is that Roman armies were comprised of soldiers.  They acted as a unit.  Warriors fight as individuals. I'll put my money on soldiers over warriors any day of the week.

[Carrier_Enterprise]

Destroyers take down Battleships? What's the point of Battleships if a destroyer can take it down?

[RMS_Gigantic]

drybone12, on 29 September 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

Destroyers take down Battleships? What's the point of Battleships if a destroyer can take it down?

Battleships can take a lot of hits above the waterline as well as deal them, but a destroyer's main weapon is a set of torpedo tubes, which attack BELOW the waterline, and subsequently take only a few hits to make another ship sink. Additionally, destroyers are fast enough where they could prove to be a difficult target for battleship guns to track and predict the motion of.

[Mathayus]

Quaffer, on 29 September 2012 - 01:29 PM, said:

The point is that Roman armies were comprised of soldiers.  They acted as a unit.  Warriors fight as individuals. I'll put my money on soldiers over warriors any day of the week.

If you can seperate out the individual soldiers the warriors will have a great advantage. But going a bit too off topic now.

Destroyers might be relatively fast but even if you are faster you still spend an awfull lot of time within gun range. I guess that a few lucky hits of a 16" gun will ruïn your day pretty quick.

[DrN0s]

RMS_Gigantic, on 29 September 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

Battleships can take a lot of hits above the waterline as well as deal them, but a destroyer's main weapon is a set of torpedo tubes, which attack BELOW the waterline, and subsequently take only a few hits to make another ship sink.

Ever heard of bulge and what is its role?

[JeeWeeJ]

DrN0s, on 29 September 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

Ever heard of bulge and what is its role?

Ah, yes...i've heard of that... But just take a look at the Yamato how effective bulge is after you fire enough torps at it.
Any defence can be penetrated.