Pushing with Yamato, an exploration in shifting BB meta

[MEATxHEAD30]

I attempted to attach replay but it failed. I push with CV support and a gearing into the B objective on Land of Fire. The game is not exciting in terms of stats or kills but I believe that by my aggressive push, and help from CV/Gearing we gained MAP CONTROL which ultimately won us the game. Looking at the mini-map we encountered Shima/Fubuki and took fire from multiple cruisers, Montana and repeated CV attacks.

 

-Enemy team focused me

 

-Enemy team was forced to withdraw from B

 

-CV focused me

 

_with focus on me, the team was able to cap C as well. other BBs stayed on the side of the map, cruisers at A fought a delaying action. Cruisers on my flank are still standoffish, we could have used more support in mid.

 

-CVs did GREAT job of keeping me alive, Gearing fought like hell.

 

The reason for this post is the recent post on reddit complaining of typical Yamato players staying at 26 km trying to be ninja snipers, honestly I have too much ADD to do this, and i would like to challenge this notion. I will ALWAYS push into anything if i receive at least minimal support. Regardless of class. By virtue of gearing/myself risking ourselves we denied the enemy initiative. I played sloppy (still getting used to yamato guns, and I made a poor choice going yolo near the end which almost cost us the game. 

 

Please share to encourage other BB/supports to challenge the current meta, replay does not attach, PM and ill email it to you.

 

I linked the first game in the bottom of the post, here is another example of being much more aggressive. I get 3 kills probably in the last 6 min but I continued to deny enemy initiative the whole game 

http://wowreplays.com/Replay/4848-MEATxHEAD30-Yamato-Land-of-Fire

[Brohk]

Just curious, do you have any screenshots to share? I know you said you had trouble with the replay, but if you have a few screenshots, I'd love to see them and see what the composition of the teams were. 

[VGLance]

You need to explore more. A proper experiment requires the necessary sample size. The total opposite outcome (loss) is just as, if not more likely with lower or even average skilled players. 

 

Almost any time you are taking damage at a faster rate than dishing it due to focus fire, your efficiency plummets and the net result is putting your team at a disadvantage. 

 

If you want your audience to consider your analysis and thesis credible, you have to demonstrate objectivity, which you have yet to provide. 

[Yamato_Rekka_ProjektA150]

ok

[centarina]

teamwork is OP,   plz nerf     good job though.        when I am in my USDD, I tend to be out front scouting,   it really helps to have team push behind as I will spot those torps coming from long distance. 

[Macabe]

26km Yamatos are just bad. They should be more around 18-20 if they want to go with that playstyle. 26km away Yamato: not threatening. Yamato right in fron of you at 18km: very threatening and makes it less likey for the enemy to push.

[Special_Kay]

Off topic, use a third-party file host to upload your replays. Forum uploads are not very useful except in specific situations. WoWs Replays in particular is a very easy-to-use site which specializes in Warships replays, and doesn't require you to log in or create an account.

[StrikeTalon]

I attempted to attach replay but it failed. I push with CV support and a gearing into the B objective on Land of Fire. The game is not exciting in terms of stats or kills but I believe that by my aggressive push, and help from CV/Gearing we gained MAP CONTROL which ultimately won us the game. Looking at the mini-map we encountered Shima/Fubuki and took fire from multiple cruisers, Montana and repeated CV attacks.

 

-Enemy team focused me

 

-Enemy team was forced to withdraw from B

 

-CV focused me

 

_with focus on me, the team was able to cap C as well. other BBs stayed on the side of the map, cruisers at A fought a delaying action. Cruisers on my flank are still standoffish, we could have used more support in mid.

 

-CVs did GREAT job of keeping me alive, Gearing fought like hell.

 

The reason for this post is the recent post on reddit complaining of typical Yamato players staying at 26 km trying to be ninja snipers, honestly I have too much ADD to do this, and i would like to challenge this notion. I will ALWAYS push into anything if i receive at least minimal support. Regardless of class. By virtue of gearing/myself risking ourselves we denied the enemy initiative. I played sloppy (still getting used to yamato guns, and I made a poor choice going yolo near the end which almost cost us the game. 

 

Please share to encourage other BB/supports to challenge the current meta, replay does not attach, PM and ill email it to you.

 

raw wows replay files upload and sharing can be done at wowreplays.com

[Show_Me_Your_Cits]

Every time I try to push, I either end up:

A) All alone. Doesn't matter that I tell my team what I'm going to do, or ask for some fighter cover... I get ignored and focused by the enemy/CVs. 

B) Eating walls of torpedus over and over again no matter how much I WASD. Yamato = DD magnet. 

Or C) HE spammed to death by DDs and CA's. Three fires lit, put them out... HAVE FOUR MORE! Try to blast them... Bracket the target! Overpens for all! 

 

I hate the sniping meta, but unless you're in a division... That's what you're stuck doing in a BB. 

[StrikeTalon]

I attempted to attach replay but it failed. I push with CV support and a gearing into the B objective on Land of Fire. The game is not exciting in terms of stats or kills but I believe that by my aggressive push, and help from CV/Gearing we gained MAP CONTROL which ultimately won us the game. Looking at the mini-map we encountered Shima/Fubuki and took fire from multiple cruisers, Montana and repeated CV attacks.

 

-Enemy team focused me

 

-Enemy team was forced to withdraw from B

 

-CV focused me

 

_with focus on me, the team was able to cap C as well. other BBs stayed on the side of the map, cruisers at A fought a delaying action. Cruisers on my flank are still standoffish, we could have used more support in mid.

 

-CVs did GREAT job of keeping me alive, Gearing fought like hell.

 

The reason for this post is the recent post on reddit complaining of typical Yamato players staying at 26 km trying to be ninja snipers, honestly I have too much ADD to do this, and i would like to challenge this notion. I will ALWAYS push into anything if i receive at least minimal support. Regardless of class. By virtue of gearing/myself risking ourselves we denied the enemy initiative. I played sloppy (still getting used to yamato guns, and I made a poor choice going yolo near the end which almost cost us the game. 

 

Please share to encourage other BB/supports to challenge the current meta, replay does not attach, PM and ill email it to you.

 

 

Its situational.  Map,location of enemy fleet, MM.  Pushing in a Yams before you have any idea whats directly infront of you is a bad idea.  You have to plan your movement in advance.  Sailing into Shima torp walls with BBs at different angles ready to cit you if you turn.  Always goes badly for the Yams.  An isolated Yams is a dead Yams.  If a DD is close by.

[shootieboats]

If my secondaries aren't firing, my Yammy isn't close enough.

 

YMMV.

[Special_Kay]

Every time I try to push, I either end up:

A) All alone. Doesn't matter that I tell my team what I'm going to do, or ask for some fighter cover... I get ignored and focused by the enemy/CVs. 

B) Eating walls of torpedus over and over again no matter how much I WASD. Yamato = DD magnet. 

Or C) HE spammed to death by DDs and CA's. Three fires lit, put them out... HAVE FOUR MORE! Try to blast them... Bracket the target! Overpens for all! 

 

I hate the sniping meta, but unless you're in a division... That's what you're stuck doing in a BB. 

 

Well, fighter cover just doesn't really work that way. As far as escorting with a cruiser goes, it doesn't matter if there's a battleship next to me or not, if I close to within 16km, I'm going to be the one tanking for you. That ends up about how you'd guess. One battleship can't really push against an enemy group with any numbers, because you'll be torpedoed and your escort will get focussed. If you're close enough to hit the enemy battleships, my cruiser needs to be even closer to their 16" guns to be of any value in an anti-destroyer role.

 

You're better off taking point for your team whenever you find yourself with the pack, because trying to rally some escorts to build a push from scratch is going to go poorly more often than not.

[MEATxHEAD30]

Ok sorry guys, here is the replay, again its sloppy but I thinks its worth exploring. I think the Yamato with minimal support can push, even into torpedoes. The key (my opinion) is denying enemy initiative, forcing them to react to me and a small number of ships.

 

http://wowreplays.com/Replay/4818-MEATxHEAD30-Yamato-Land-of-Fire

[KaptainKaybe]

I don't have any experience playing high tier IJN BBs ... but it seems to me that at high tiers, the situation flips with IJN becoming better brawlers. The Izumo and Yamato both are absolutely bristling with secondaries, all of which can be boosted to fire at 10km range. They have far better secondaries than USN battleships who specialize in AA. But the only way to get those secondaries into play is to close with the enemy.

 

Another thing I noticed yesterday, now that we can see those stats, is that the Yamato has *amazing* torpedo protection ... something like 50-55% damage reduction, so it's much better at dealing with destroyers than USN BBs.

 

My guess is that IJN BB captains still snipe all the time as that was the playstyle they were forced to adopt with that line at tiers 4,5,6, and 8. That and they have better dispersion at range.

 

In fact, looking over those stats, the only thing USN seems to be good at at higher tiers is AA

[IronWolfV]

26km Yamatos are just bad. They should be more around 18-20 if they want to go with that playstyle. 26km away Yamato: not threatening. Yamato right in fron of you at 18km: very threatening and makes it less likey for the enemy to push.

 

Try being in a NO and seeing an enemy Yamato at 14 KM. That's a bad day. Lucky for me, if the guy was shooting for crap he wouldn't of gotten a whiff.

[Gabriel_LXIX]

Only at tier V in BBs and  find that with 20kt speed I already find myself way out in front of much faster BBs and the rest of the team to the point where I ge focused down. That's not tanking for your team, that's being an XP piñata.

 

I'll need to develop the map awareness to stay in the lead pack, but also not isolated.

 

Very frustrating to see friendly BBs 5km behind you and heading in the other direction.

 

 

[atPrick__]

Tried playing Yamato like a traditional BB and it is difficult, constantly being focused on by everything leads to either playing back, waaay back or pushing and usually dying by torp, CV, and fire.

 

So....

 

Instead I'm going to slap my cruiser captain in her and run CE instead, try and play more "up" and see if it makes a difference.

[KaptainKaybe]

Tried playing Yamato like a traditional BB and it is difficult, constantly being focused on by everything leads to either playing back, waaay back or pushing and usually dying by torp, CV, and fire.

 

So....

 

Instead I'm going to slap my cruiser captain in her and run CE instead, try and play more "up" and see if it makes a difference.

 

Yeah, but that's not a ship problem. It's a high tier meta makes ships cower in the back because they are afraid of scratching the paint issue. Also a Random Battles issue.

 

[Sakuzhi]

 

Try being in a NO and seeing an enemy Yamato at 14 KM. That's a bad day. Lucky for me, if the guy was shooting for crap he wouldn't of gotten a whiff.

 

I remember the times when I'd end up with 3 T8 CAs within 10 km of my Yamato.

 

I'll let you guess what happened when their torpedoes missed me

 

 

 Tried playing Yamato like a traditional BB and it is difficult

 Not as easy as you'd think huh?

 

The Yamato is something that needs to be played to the situation at hand. If there are DDs about, you need to hang back until they are no longer an issue. 

 

If your team is doing some flank silliness, nothing delays the enemy like a WASDing Yamato at around 20km from them (Yamato-Fear is a real thing btw). 

 

If there isn't DDs about and you know you can bowl over the opposing BB line, go for it. TX is about position, and the tactics of exerting map control, having a Yamato ramming down your grill is going to prevent that BB line  from doing much of anything. (And Yes, I've charged and killed a NC, Iowa, Yamato with very minor assistance in the past) 

 

[atPrick__]

 

Yeah, but that's not a ship problem. It's a high tier meta makes ships cower in the back because they are afraid of scratching the paint issue. Also a Random Battles issue.

 

 

it works with Tirpitz, you can even play stupid and still get away with it.

 

I think a more cautious approach to the Stealth thing with Yamato would work really well. Just need to grind creds to do it...

[MnemonScarlet]

Tried playing Yamato like a traditional BB and it is difficult, constantly being focused on by everything leads to either playing back, waaay back or pushing and usually dying by torp, CV, and fire.

 

So....

 

Instead I'm going to slap my cruiser captain in her and run CE instead, try and play more "up" and see if it makes a difference.

 

Concealment Yammy can be good - I ran into one the other day. The only thing is if you're working off the concealment a lot instead of just using it to get into good positions you're not sharing HP with the team or using your armor much.

[Swine_007]

You need to explore more. A proper experiment requires the necessary sample size. The total opposite outcome (loss) is just as, if not more likely with lower or even average skilled players. 

 

Almost any time you are taking damage at a faster rate than dishing it due to focus fire, your efficiency plummets and the net result is putting your team at a disadvantage. 

 

If you want your audience to consider your analysis and thesis credible, you have to demonstrate objectivity, which you have yet to provide. 

 

Not quite .... your measure is actually flawed .... If the OP was taking fire and/or being focused by the enemy team ... it becomes a question of whether by his actions his team was able to inflict proportionately greater damage on the opposing team by the nature of the Yammy being the most able to take fire with the lowest chance of damage ( torpedo protection / high chance for bounces etc ) 

 

"Almost any time your team is taking damage at a faster rate than dishing it due to focus fire, your efficiency plummets and the net result is putting your team at a disadvantage"

FTFY

 

It's the age old question of if a BB is moving up and tanking can their team take advantage it and cap/sink enemies at a greater rate or is it best for BBs to sit back and be artillery.  My experience is that having BBs in the vanguard WITH the cruisers is more effective for the team than if they are hanging back.  The BBs may end up with lower survival scores but it seems to be what benefits the team more.  

 

[BlazerSparta]

OP sounds like he got into a terrible position, and somehow got through through. B cap means taking fire from both sides, and being unable to effectively angle armour. Sounds like you just lucked out with incompetent opponents.

[atPrick__]

 

Concealment Yammy can be good - I ran into one the other day. The only thing is if you're working off the concealment a lot instead of just using it to get into good positions you're not sharing HP with the team or using your armor much.

 

was my knock on it, the lack of doing enough meat shielding.

 

I think you can still tank but can choose when, or try and choose when you want to.

[MEATxHEAD30]

Another replay, here I have a semi agg push, then aggressively push against DDs. Also i rescue cruisers under fire. Sorry for language in chat.....

 

http://wowreplays.com/Replay/4848-MEATxHEAD30-Yamato-Land-of-Fire