How to Balance Destroyers

[IKU19]

I've been hearing some talk about making changes to Japanese destroyers in order to distort the torpedo meta.

 

But they shouldn't change Japanese destroyers, rather they should buff cruisers in general.

Destroyers are currently in a good position, being a good counter to battleships which the game is designed around (Rock-Paper-Scissors)

 

What I propose is the following:

 

1. Give Cruisers the passive ability (as in not a consumable) to detect torpedoes at 125% their detection range and detect ships by proxy at 3km stock.
2. Make sonar stack with vigilance and the target acquisition module
3. Increase the maneuverability and speed of cruisers in general

 

This would make cruisers more effective at tackling destroyers, with the recent introduction of Sonar and Radar they already effectively counter US and Russian destroyers, but since Japanese destroyers rely more on stealth and range, cruisers need more mobility and passive torpedo detection capabilities.

 

Alternatively you accomplish the same by

 

1. Reducing battleship maneuverability
2. Increasing torpedo detection range

 

As torpedo-hit-rate vs battleships shouldn't be impacted by a large margin, however it does increase the surveying capabilities of cruisers and other destroyers.

 

Additionally I propose the following change for destroyers:

 

1. Increase stock artillery range
2. Reduce maneuverability (acceleration, rudder shift and turning circle)
3. Reduce flood chance

 

This would make destroyers stick further out in order to compensate for their maneuverability, decreasing the accuracy of their torpedoes. Additionally the increased range should give them a less focus on torpedoes while still revolving around stealth.

[bad_arcade_kitty]

destroyers are weak enough that they don't need any 'balancing'

[IKU19]

destroyers are weak enough that they don't need any 'balancing'

 

I agree, but cruisers need to be able to counter destroyers in the same capability that a battleship can counter a cruiser, and a destroyer can counter a battleship.

It's why there's a big torpedo meta right now, destroyers are uncontested because cruisers do not have the capabilities to be a counter to both destroyers and carriers.

Either way, there are strong rumors going around that they're nerfing Japanese destroyers, which is something that would reinstall the heavy armor-camp meta we had after OBT and was why torpedoes were buffed in the first place.

[10T0nHammer]

I see CAs just replacing DDs with some of these changes though. Like why bring a class that will easily be shutdown by another class? CAs can bob and weave and use stealth vs BBs. BBs just need to pay attention to mini map and plan their movements accordingly vs anything. DDs, well there is a reason why they have the lowest damage even though they target the thing with the most health. Torpedoes are very easy to counter. Stealth is their only armor. Two things that are instantly negated the second they are spotted. That is the reason why CVs completely shutdown DDs. They keep torpedoes and DDs lit.

 

I wont say I have the right way but this might be the wrong way. Just my .02.

 

I think the question is, how do you make CAs stronger  vs DDs without accidentally making DDs obsolete, since they already have the worst survival rates, WRs (for the most part) and damage done.

[bad_arcade_kitty]

 

I agree, but cruisers need to be able to counter destroyers in the same capability that a battleship can counter a cruiser

 

how so?

 

destroyers cannot counter battleship to the same extent how a battleship can counter a cruiser

 

also nobody can counter cv

 

imo cv and bettleships need nerfs

[IKU19]

 

how so?

 

destroyers cannot counter battleship to the same extent how a battleship can counter a cruiser

 

also nobody can counter cv

 

imo cv and bettleships need nerfs

 

You know as well as I do that battleships will never get nerfed appropriately. In every case the devs have said "the stats don't reflect changing x, y, or z" but when it comes to battleships they find the reasons that requires changes.

[IKU19]

I see CAs just replacing DDs with some of these changes though. Like why bring a class that will easily be shutdown by another class? CAs can bob and weave and use stealth vs BBs. BBs just need to pay attention to mini map and plan their movements accordingly vs anything. DDs, well there is a reason why they have the lowest damage even though they target the thing with the most health. Torpedoes are very easy to counter. Stealth is their only armor. Two things that are instantly negated the second they are spotted. That is the reason why CVs completely shutdown DDs. They keep torpedoes and DDs lit.

 

I wont say I have the right way but this might be the wrong way. Just my .02.

 

I think the question is, how do you make CAs stronger  vs DDs without accidentally making DDs obsolete, since they already have the worst survival rates, WRs (for the most part) and damage done.

 

Not my decision, from multiple distinct sources I've heard that they're making changes to break the torpedo wall meta, this would have the least impact to the game's flow while still removing the torpedo wall meta.

I'm merely putting it out there that nerfs aren't the only way to balance something.

[MnemonScarlet]

The passive detection buff would be neat, but don't really want DDs to become useless either. Cruisers are already maneuverable enough to throw off BB fire at non-suicidal ranges if the player has two brain cells to rub together, so making them turn better would just make it too hard to fight them with BB reload. The balance feels really awkward right now.

[10T0nHammer]

 

Not my decision, from multiple distinct sources I've heard that they're making changes to break the torpedo wall meta, this would have the least impact to the game's flow while still removing the torpedo wall meta.

I'm merely putting it out there that nerfs aren't the only way to balance something.

 

Very true. I liked the passive ability of spotting torpedoes.

 

1. Give Cruisers the passive ability (as in not a consumable) to detect torpedoes at 125% their detection range and detect ships by proxy at 3km stock. (You could base it on speed, spotting 55kt torps 125% earlier is brutal).
2. Make sonar stack with vigilance and the target acquisition module (I like this but will probably hurt all non Shimakaze DDs the most.)

 

I think speed one is very dangerous. Not sure if you have played DDs but if you have a CA on you and you are spotted. You are pretty much dead unless you have smoke. 3-4kt difference doesn't mean anything if you are weaving to dodge fire (Like Shima @ 39kts vs Zao@35kts).

[MnemonScarlet]

I think speed one is very dangerous. Not sure if you have played DDs but if you have a CA on you and you are spotted. You are pretty much dead unless you have smoke. 3-4kt difference doesn't mean anything if you are weaving to dodge fire (Like Shima @ 39kts vs Zao@35kts).

 

Yeah, the only thing that saves the DD most of the time is someone else killing the cruiser.

[QuantumEntropy]

To counter DDs they need to re-buff the CVs and if they buff CVs they need to buff AA and if they buff AA they need to buff CVs again you get where this is going

 

This game will never be balanced

 

[10T0nHammer]

Personally, I think they should pull the Shimakaze from the game, maybe save it for an event but I also understand how dangerous that can be for the health of the game.

 

Either way, I think it would be simpler to target the key ship causing the problem than a flat buff to its predator. I think Setting the base detection to something like 12km. With captain and mods itll drop to about 9.5km.

[QuantumEntropy]

Personally, I think they should pull the Shimakaze from the game, maybe save it for an event but I also understand how dangerous that can be for the health of the game.

 

Either way, I think it would be simpler to target the key ship causing the problem than a flat buff to its predator. I think Setting the base detection to something like 12km. With captain and mods itll drop to about 9.5km.

 

Shima is ok but the only thing wrong with it is the torp damage

 

I get 3 torps hits insta 50k dmg

[1nv4d3rZ1m]

Instead of Radar they should have introduced a different mechanic that couldnt be easily countered like maybe star shells that make ships visible in an area but only an area selected not everything around a ship. That way it can be out played, just like smoke needed to be able to be outplayed but radar just introduced a new tactic that cant be countered and really is not skill dependent. 

 

 

how so?

 

destroyers cannot counter battleship to the same extent how a battleship can counter a cruiser

 

also nobody can counter cv

 

imo cv and bettleships need nerfs

 

Sorry games full of dds are not fun, something had to be done to balance the population. Games mostly CAs with a few dds and a few BBs seem to be the most fun for most everybody. 

[Killjoy1941]

I'd rather WG just add spotting damage and give CVs a dramatic boost for it as they increase in tier.

[bad_arcade_kitty]

Sorry games full of dds are not fun, something had to be done to balance the population. Games mostly CAs with a few dds and a few BBs seem to be the most fun for most everybody. 

 

so propose the flat dd limit per team instead of broking the balance and upsetting quite a few people

[Ms_Makawee]

That way it can be out played, just like smoke needed to be able to be outplayed but radar just introduced a new tactic that cant be countered and really is not skill dependent. 

 

That's the problem with stealth type tactics in games, they cannot be outplayed and are EXTREMELY binary. If it is strong it is completely broken (leading to gameplay of X can do anything it wants and Y can't do anything because X can fight Y on even terms + X can be anywhere it wants and start every engagement by surprise), if it is weak then it is pointless (X is limited by making it weaker in actual combat due to it having stealth, so any time it actually enters combat with Y it loses, making the ability pointless besides looking at stuff).

 

Can you outplay a Minekaze circling your New York and firing torpedoes from random angles? No, he can technically follow you the entire game shooting torps at you and there's no action or play you can make to change that. It is up to him to make a mistake to even be able to be fought.

 

It's literally out of your control.

 

[bad_arcade_kitty]

and what action can you do if a zuiho decides to send her tb to you repeatedly

[Special_Kay]

I don't really care for the proposed changes to destroyers. People who play the tiny fast things in a game are often in it because it's fun to zip around. (Z99 with skeleton crew in NF1, anyone?) I'd rather not have that mucked with.

 

As for your first set of proposed changes, I worry about boosting cruiser speed and manoeuvrability. In many cases they're the least manoeuvrable ships, by virtue of their hull design. In changing this, we essentially take away some of the uniqueness of other ships. As for boosting speed... well, perhaps a slim boost can work, but I fear for destroyers losing a tangible edge in that category.

 

Regarding the second set of proposed changes, I like it with a caveat: carrier strikes are going to become far more challenging to evade. However, I do like the notion of making ship-borne torpedoes less dodgeable. The ease with which they can be avoided by even battleships is part of what necessitates a break from reality in reload times, as I've concluded before. By making torpedoes much harder to dodge, it frees up many opportunities for balance which were previously untouchable for want of destroyer competitiveness.

[1nv4d3rZ1m]

 

so propose the flat dd limit per team instead of broking the balance and upsetting quite a few people

 

Terrible idea that has already been discussed ad nauseam, you then have long queues for DDs (which makes them complain) as well as not addressing the reason why people are flocking to high tier DDs. Address the reason dont bandaid the symptoms. 

 

 

That's the problem with stealth type tactics in games, they cannot be outplayed and are EXTREMELY binary. If it is strong it is completely broken (leading to gameplay of X can do anything it wants and Y can't do anything because X can fight Y on even terms + X can be anywhere it wants and start every engagement by surprise), if it is weak then it is pointless (X is limited by making it weaker in actual combat due to it having stealth, so any time it actually enters combat with Y it loses, making the ability pointless besides looking at stuff).

 

Can you outplay a Minekaze circling your New York and firing torpedoes from random angles? No, he can technically follow you the entire game shooting torps at you and there's no action or play you can make to change that. It is up to him to make a mistake to even be able to be fought.

 

It's literally out of your control.

 

 

Yeah I dont like game mechanics that cant be countered, smoke was bad enough and could be abused especially by dd divisions but I also dont like the counter that makes smoke and invisibility useless. Make something that requires a little skill to pull off right and does not depend on people making mistakes. 

[MnemonScarlet]

and what action can you do if a zuiho decides to send her tb to you repeatedly

 

That feels less bad, at least to me, because at least you can see the planes and where they're coming from, even though it's still frustrating. A non-idiot DD tossing torps at you outside of his detection range you feel literally powerless and can only react to the torps as they appear, and in open water it can be from literally any angle since the DD can traverse to whatever side he wants. But situations like that usually only show up if you're isolated or one of the last people left.

 

Instead of Radar they should have introduced a different mechanic that couldnt be easily countered like maybe star shells that make ships visible in an area but only an area selected not everything around a ship. That way it can be out played, just like smoke needed to be able to be outplayed but radar just introduced a new tactic that cant be countered and really is not skill dependent. 

 

^This. Like if star shells were a type of ammo and you could switch to them or something. Would make the dumb ammo switch skill more useful too.

[bad_arcade_kitty]

 

Terrible idea that has already been discussed ad nauseam, you then have long queues for DDs (which makes them complain) as well as not addressing the reason why people are flocking to high tier DDs. Address the reason dont bandaid the symptoms. 

 

no, it's your idea to nerf ships which already underperform statistically is terrible

 

the only ships which need nerfs it's cv and bb

 

cl/ca need survivability buffs against citadels

 

dd are not nearly as popular as cruisers and battleships, but people begin to whine as soon as they see 4 dd while 5 bb or 7 cruisers are perfectly fine to them

[Skraeling]

 

1. Give Cruisers the passive ability (as in not a consumable) to detect torpedoes at 125% their detection range and detect ships by proxy at 3km stock.
2. Make sonar stack with vigilance and the target acquisition module
3. Increase the maneuverability and speed of cruisers in general

 

1. Increase stock artillery range
2. Reduce maneuverability (acceleration, rudder shift and turning circle)
3. Reduce flood chance

 

 

no no and HELL no.

 

you want torp detection range to go UP?  There is a reason it was cut down...   LOL if #1 goes through you may as well NEVER shoot a torpedo again for all the good they will do.

 

I do wish I could use my dd guns more so more range would be interesting. 

 

Lol cut down on maneuverability?  Why?  I dont want to die even easier to CV than I already do.  MY shims turning radius is 690m.... thats more than my new mexico and only 50m less than my NC and 40m less than my fuso..

[Ms_Makawee]

and what action can you do if a zuiho decides to send her tb to you repeatedly

 

That can be balanced, either by nerfing or buffing, because you can see the planes, fight the planes, outplay the planes or get outplayed by the planes. You're interacting with something, both parties are engaged in combat, not just one randomly getting hit while in the middle of nowhere with nothing around as far as can be seen in any direction. Even if the Carrier brings you down, you wounded his ship (since Carriers are basically useless without their planes, you technically fought and damaged him).

 

You can buff AA to kill the bombers/more bombers, nerf plane speed so they can't circle around you so well despite you turning, buff ship turn speed to make them able to avoid the spread with skill, many things. You can also do the inverse of any of these things for opposite effect. Stealth gameplay… it is make the stealth weaker/stronger or make the uninteractive damage less/more.

 

Either way, you are not interacting with an opponent, you are not fighting the carrier's skill at manual dropping or killing his planes; in this case, you are simply having actions spontaneously performed on you at random that you cannot interact with in any way whatsoever.

 

Yeah I dont like game mechanics that cant be countered, smoke was bad enough and could be abused especially by dd divisions but I also dont like the counter that makes smoke and invisibility useless. Make something that requires a little skill to pull off right and does not depend on people making mistakes. 

 

Radar is bad game design in the same way smoke is bad game design. "You used your iwin button? Well my iwin button beats your iwin button!" type stuff. Neither player really did anything, nothing happened. One pressed his button to get instant perfect invisibility and the other pressed his button to get instant perfect sight.

[bad_arcade_kitty]

 

That feels less bad, at least to me, because at least you can see the planes and where they're coming from, even though it's still frustrating. A non-idiot DD tossing torps at you outside of his detection range you feel literally powerless and can only react to the torps as they appear, and in open water it can be from literally any angle since the DD can traverse to whatever side he wants. But situations like that usually only show up if you're isolated or one of the last people left.

 

but apart from psychology you actually can do more against such a dd than against a cv

 

you can constantly change your course while moving from the dd (and you know its general direction when you see torps), moving from the dd is especially effective you play something like kongo

 

while when a cv attacks you you can do nothing except trying to eat as less torps as possible knowing that torp hits are inevitable

 

p.s. not to forget the spotting plane on bb which will spot that minekaze in practice