Something wrong with AA....

[Chrifister]

I'm curious how this AA mechanic is supposed to work. I've read about the formulas and how two fighter squadron outcomes are calculated but does a similar method apply to ship AA? It seems like there's a certain point of required AA before it will actually be effective and shoot down planes. Under this point and you're not shooting down anything. Over this point and you can flatten squadrons. So if there is this certain amount of AA that's required, why bother having any if it's under this point? Here are some examples:

 

• Playing in a Fubuki towards the end of the match. Enemy CV finds me with bombers but misses with them. He then keeps the bombers over me for the rest of the match. I had my AA on and his squadron manually targeted. Never shot down a plane. Effectively neutralized me.
   
• Again in a Fubuki towards end game. I'm harassing a lone NM. Enemy CV finds me with a fighter squadron and parks them over me. I retreat behind an island and turn my AA on. He left them over me for the rest of the match. I notice an enemy Mogami heading to capture our spawn. Nothing I could do. I come flying out when he's almost finished capping to try and reset the timer and he sinks me. Didn't matter because we had no ships close enough to stop him. In the time it took for the Mogami to sail towards the spawn and mostly cap it, my AA was firing at the squadron right on top of me. Again, no planes shot down.
   
• In a Mahan with two BBs beside me. Great game for me. Sunk 3 BBs and a CA. The whole game the two BBs beside me couldn't advance past the middle because of the constant harassment by the two enemy CVs. I had a steady stream of bombers and torpedo bombers flying over me towards the BBs. Towards the end of the match I got tired of manually targeting the squadrons as it wasn't doing any good. Made a run on the CV after taking out all enemies in our path but was sunk by bombers. I shot down one plane right before I was sunk. My AA never stopped firing all match.
   
• Again in a Mahan towards end game and I'm making my way south from the C row. Enemy CV finds me with a fighter squadron and parks them over me. Because I'm spotted, I stay to the east away from enemy ships. I make it to the H row and am sunk by CAs that had sailed around south to intercept me. No planes shot down. I even remarked in All chat while I'm sailing that my AA sucked and the enemy CV said "lol yep".
   
• Again in a Mahan about mid-way through a match. Killed a couple of DDs and am making my way south from the C8 cell. My way is clear so I'm heading to the bottom of the map and then west to find the CVs. Enemy CV finds me with fighters and parks them over me. I sail all the way south to the I row and then west and engage a CV around the I2 cell. He retreats around an island and I'm sunk by a BB. No planes shot down. Can anyone say how long it took in a Mahan to make that trip? That's a long time for AA to be going off.
   
• Last night in a Budyonny at the beginning of the match. I'm sailing east and notice a large number of bombers coming up the middle making a beeline for the two BBs just north of me. Two enemy Rangers with what I assume are bomber loadouts have pretty much sent everything they could. Me, a Myoko, and a Mahan put ourselves in the flight path to try and do something. The squadrons are not bunched together but are in a stream. They all fly over us and back again and only the Myoko shot down a plane. Had Hydroacoustic Search instead of Defensive AA Fire but it probably wouldn't have made a difference.
   
• Today in a Budyonny I'm having a wicked game. Towards the end of the match and I just took out the last remaining CA in our area and am just turning to head north across the map. I see two Ryujo torpedo squadrons coming, one with four planes and one with 3. They are a little ways apart with one slightly to the east and the other a little west. Trying to catch me from both sides. Had Defensive Fire this time after the fiasco the night before (see above point). Manually targeted the first squadron, he re-positions a bunch of times and I shoot down a plane just before he drops. I switch targeting to the second squadron as soon as the first squadron dropped. He re-positions a few times and drops and I shoot down one plane as they are flying away.

 

So I'm thinking in all of these examples except for the last point (Budyonny with Defensive AA Fire activated), the AA didn't seem to be at that crucial point to be able to shoot down planes. So that begs the question, why bother having the AA? I think in the Mahan you had to actually sacrifice a turret in exchange for more AA in the last hull upgrade. What a bad trade that was.

[StingRayOne]

at times I have felt the same way and at other times I am the carrier harassing you and pleased to the hilt.

however did you consider dragging your ship towards a cruiser and gain a AA advantage over the planes?

[10T0nHammer]

AA works like this, the planes you are firing have a health. Your AA fires and has a fixed damage number.

The chances of shooting down a plane are:

health/AA DPS = % chance of plane kill, per second tic  (simplified of course)

 

Thats why sometimes a fresh squad will fly into your DD AA and you magically shoot down 2 planes and other times, they'll fly into 3 overlapping Atlanta AA fields and have the squads fly away undented (very rare but I have seen it)

[vak_]

I'm curious how this AA mechanic is supposed to work

 

In short: there are three AA auras in the game (may be less, depending on the ship). Each outputs random damage within a certain damage range (though the exact mechanics are murky), the average DPS for a given aura is in the toolpit in port. Each aura can only attack one air target at a time. Once the airplanes leave the all three AA auras, all damage dealy by these auras is reset.

 

DF consumable multiplies  the average AA DPS it by 3, manual AA skill by 2, manual target selection by 1.3, BFT by 1.1. The most you can boost an aura by, therefore, is 3*2*1.3*1.1 == 8.6 times.

[anonym_LreZfNvihoej]

Few things.

Tier of CV matter

AFT and BFT of captain does matter (in that order and a lot) - first skill (along with AA Guns Modification mod 2) is a must if you going to intercept airstrikes

Defensive AA Fire does matter (again if you're going to intercept airstrikes).

Budyonny AA rating is not that star - 54 fully AA-oriented vs 70+ of Cleveland (don't remember exact number)

There's a tendency lately to use defensive aa fire on USN DD's (instead of speed boost) - it does provide you with good aa punch, but always it's very much matter of range, so BFT and AA Gun Mod 2.

[Chrifister]

Yeah I figured it was a similar calculation. Using that calculation does reveal that you need an AA rating of a certain amount to have a good chance at shooting anything down. Feels like the Budyonny is just below that mark as activating DF will shoot one plane down.

 

While I realize that a DD is not going to flatten squadrons, I would at least expect to shoot A plane down. Not shooting down any makes me wonder why I have any AA in the first place. I don't think either of those DDs have AFT, think I have the ship health instead.

[vak_]

While I realize that a DD is not going to flatten squadrons, I would at least expect to shoot A plane down

 

Not shooting down any makes me wonder why I have any AA in the first place

 

You shouldn't really expect that, unless you run a C hull with defensive fire on USN DDs. And anyways, smart carrier players will abuse the current AA mechanics by taking the airplanes outside your attack aura for a second, to reset damage, and then come back to hover.

 

On a DD you might as well forget you have AA, honestly. I turn it off 99% of the time. In team battles having a USN DD with defeinsive fire might be worthwhile, but in randoms it's a complete waste -- B hulls are so much better, since you get to keep an extra gun.

 

PS AFT does not increase damage, it just increases AA range.

[Misniso]

Yeah I figured it was a similar calculation. Using that calculation does reveal that you need an AA rating of a certain amount to have a good chance at shooting anything down. Feels like the Budyonny is just below that mark as activating DF will shoot one plane down.

 

While I realize that a DD is not going to flatten squadrons, I would at least expect to shoot A plane down. Not shooting down any makes me wonder why I have any AA in the first place. I don't think either of those DDs have AFT, think I have the ship health instead.

 

Defensive fire multiplies the large caliber AA guns only.  If you compare the Budyonny's 30 dps (5km guns) vs the Cleveland's 91 dps (5km guns), you can tell which one would tend to melt incoming planes when popped and which one is the kind where you can only rely on its panic effects to mitigate an air strike.

 

Of course, you'll probably get some planes after the fact, but that's too late then.

[Chrifister]

 

You shouldn't really expect that, unless you run a C hull with defensive fire on USN DDs. And anyways, smart carrier players will abuse the current AA mechanics by taking the airplanes outside your attack aura for a second, to reset damage, and then come back to hover.

 

On a DD you might as well forget you have AA, honestly. I turn it off 99% of the time. In team battles having a USN DD with defeinsive fire might be worthwhile, but in randoms it's a complete waste -- B hulls are so much better, since you get to keep an extra gun.

 

PS AFT does not increase damage, it just increases AA range.

 

Agreed about the B hulls. I've been switching back as the AA is useless either way.

 

I'm not sure how the current AA system works is the best way. As someone else has pointed out, since planes reset their damage, it is theoretically possible for planes to fly through barrages of AA and come out like nothing has happened. Or in my examples, to be continually under AA fire for most of a match without any harm done. That's not how AA works. It should be some percentage of damage done to a specific plane every second that only resets when the planes land on the CV. Then there will be a concept of damage being taken that would add up over time. It would then be a bad idea to keep your planes under AA fire for too long, definitely not the length of a match. At least then all AA would actually do damage even if it's only a very small amount.

[ColonelYumYum]

That's why the C hull upgrade on the Fubuki makes no sense, you gain more useless AA but loss a main gun mount. The Fubuki C hull is "supposed" to turn it into an AA platform but it's AA is still too weak to be of any use.

The Yubari used to be a good AA escort ship but since beta test they nurffed it into uselessness, I sold it because it was to fragile for fleet actions and it was pointless to use it escorting a CV.

[Misniso]

 

Agreed about the B hulls. I've been switching back as the AA is useless either way.

 

I'm not sure how the current AA system works is the best way. As someone else has pointed out, since planes reset their damage, it is theoretically possible for planes to fly through barrages of AA and come out like nothing has happened. Or in my examples, to be continually under AA fire for most of a match without any harm done. That's not how AA works. It should be some percentage of damage done to a specific plane every second that only resets when the planes land on the CV. Then there will be a concept of damage being taken that would add up over time. It would then be a bad idea to keep your planes under AA fire for too long, definitely not the length of a match. At least then all AA would actually do damage even if it's only a very small amount.

 

AA doesn't work this way.  Yes, planes have a survivability, but it's a survival roll per second rather than an actual health pool.  In short, it's like rolling dice every second and then determining if a plane dies or not based on whether the total on the die exceeds a certain threshold.

 

Yes, it appears like the planes are regenerating to full hp upon leaving a field AA, but that's because they never had HP to begin with.  Just lots of luck.

 

If they had actual health pools, there would be far less complaints about the planes.  But the amount of resources that it would take would mean that projectile and armor modeling on ships would have to be simplified.

[Jinxed_Katajainen]

AA works like this, the planes you are firing have a health. Your AA fires and has a fixed damage number.

The chances of shooting down a plane are:

health/AA DPS = % chance of plane kill, per second tic  (simplified of course)

 

Thats why sometimes a fresh squad will fly into your DD AA and you magically shoot down 2 planes and other times, they'll fly into 3 overlapping Atlanta AA fields and have the squads fly away undented (very rare but I have seen it)

 

AA DPS/health = % chance of kill.

eg: Fubuki B hull has 68 base AA DPS, Lexington dive bombers have 1680 base HP.

68/1680 = 0.040 = 4% chance of shooting a plane down each second.

[vak_]

Defensive fire multiplies the large caliber AA guns only

 

False. It affects all three AA auras. You're confusing it with manual AA skill.

 

As someone else has pointed out, since planes reset their damage, it is theoretically possible for planes to fly through barrages of AA and come out like nothing has happened

 

That's not how AA works

 

 

I'm the one who pointed it out, in the post you're replying to

 

What, in real life? But this isn't real life, this is an arcade. While I agree that perhaps aircraft squadrons shouldn't reset all the damage they received when they move out of the aura, implementing that mechanic would necessitate a large buff to the aircraft HP -- which would make DD AA even more useless against a full-HP air squadron.

 

The Yubari used to be a good AA escort ship but since beta test they nurffed it into uselessness

 

lolwut? It gained a DF consumable AFTER the CBT (and maybe even after OBT, if memory serves). As for perceived uselessness -- according to WST, in the past 42 days I played 15 Yubari games, and shot down 9.6 airplanes on average in each battle. That's 1/3 of Langley's total aircraft strength neutralized each game (mostly bombers too), to give this some context. Yubari is still great at AA, you just have to know how to utilize it properly.

[10T0nHammer]

 

AA DPS/health = % chance of kill.

eg: Fubuki B hull has 68 base AA DPS, Lexington dive bombers have 1680 base HP.

68/1680 = 0.040 = 4% chance of shooting a plane down each second.

 

My bad, I always mix these two up, but general idea is still reflected

[Misniso]

 

False. It affects all three AA auras. You're confusing it with manual AA skill.

 

 

 

Why do other forumers say that the skill only affects dual purpose batteries only?

 

And the outdated wiki says this:

 

 

 There are also two in-battle methods of increasing DPS. The first is by setting an enemy squadron as a priority target by using CTRL + LMB on the squadron. This will increase the DPS of all AA by a factor of 1.1. The second is by activating the Defensive Fire consumable (available on most cruisers from tier VI and up, as well as on American destroyers from tier V and up), this will increase the DPS of long range AA aura by a factor of 3. Both methods will also stack, therefore setting a squadron as a priority target and activating the Defensive Fire consumable will increase long range AA DPS by a factor of 3.3.

 

src: http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Aerial_Combat_(WoWS)

 

Outdated, but I don't recall seeing a change in the patch notes saying that the skill now applies to all auras.

[10T0nHammer]

 

False. It affects all three AA auras. You're confusing it with manual AA skill.

 

Actually DF only affects dual purpose guns batteries. So basically anything bigger than 100mm since I think 100mm is the smallest DP guns in the game (belonging to VMF CLs)

[vak_]

Why do other forumers say that the skill only affects dual purpose batteries only?

 

Beats me. The RU devs have stated before that DF affects all three auras. Also, this is pretty obvious to me from personal experience, since I have  Yubari -- DF definitely works wonders on it, and yet it only has 3 DPS for its outer AA aura.

[10T0nHammer]

 

Beats me. The RU devs have stated before that DF affects all three auras. Also, this is pretty obvious to me from personal experience, since I have  Yubari -- DF definitely works wonders on it, and yet it only has 3 DPS for its outer AA aura.

 

Would you happen to have a source? Even STs have told me only DP guns are affected

[Hurlbut]

Defensive Fire and Barrage affect only AA/DP bigger than 85mm.

[Morpheous]

Remember even if your not shooting down a plane, you are still disrupting the spread, and that matters.  I don't expect to EVER shoot down a plane with my DD, but I do expect to disrupt the attack pattern, which I feel does happen, especially with pesky DBers.   Anyhow it does help MY morale  when my guns are blazing away.   It seems like a pretty close approximation.  DDs were not noted for handling attack planes on their own. With other ships, helping out, yes.  There are a lot of WWII pictures of some attack aircraft just abusing some Japanese DD, they just don't have that much firepower.  American DDs a bit better, but .....not really their job!

[vak_]

Would you happen to have a source? Even STs have told me only DP guns are affected

 

AA mchanics post by RU dev: http://forum.worldofwarships.ru/index.php?/topic/16696-%D0%BE-%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B4%D1%83%D1%88%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B9-%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B5/

 

1. На некоторых кораблях (в данный момент это ряд крейсеров и эсминцев с "универсалками") есть снаряжение "Заградительный огонь ПВО". Активация увеличивает средний урон в секунду для универсальных орудий и крупнокалиберных пулеметов (например,таких и таких - по сути, всех калибров от 25 мм и выше) в 3 раза. Кроме того, у находящихся под этим эффектом эскадрилий резко падает точность бомбометания и пуска торпед.

 

I've bolded the pertinent part of the paragraph. TL;DR: I'm right

[vak_]

And the outdated wiki says this

 

Haha, if memory serves, I'm the one who originally wrote that wiki paragraph But I don't remember whether I was the one to put in the bit about the long range AA aura; if I have I was definitely wrong.

[10T0nHammer]

 

AA mchanics post by RU dev: http://forum.worldofwarships.ru/index.php?/topic/16696-%D0%BE-%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B4%D1%83%D1%88%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B9-%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B5/

 

1. На некоторых кораблях (в данный момент это ряд крейсеров и эсминцев с "универсалками") есть снаряжение "Заградительный огонь ПВО". Активация увеличивает средний урон в секунду для универсальных орудий и крупнокалиберных пулеметов (например,таких и таких - по сути, всех калибров от 25 мм и выше) в 3 раза. Кроме того, у находящихся под этим эффектом эскадрилий резко падает точность бомбометания и пуска торпед.

 

I've bolded the pertinent part of the paragraph. TL;DR: I'm right

 

 On some ships (at this time is a series of cruisers and destroyers with the "universalkami") is a gear "Obstruction of air defense fire." Activation increases the average damage per second for universal guns and heavy machine guns (such and such - in fact, all calibres of 25 mm and above) 3 times. In addition, under this effect squadrons plummets precision bombing and launch torpedoes.

 

Thats still not all AA guns only long and medium range guns re buffed according to the devs.

 

When was it changed though because according to this poster:

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/13878-basics-aa-mechanics/

 

It only affects long range (read: DP guns) and it got pinned so he had to be correct to a certain degree

[vak_]

Thats still not all AA guns

 

When was it changed though because according to this poster

 

Nah, it's all of them. Even auto-translate did a halfway decent job here -- the dev is saying that DF gives bonus to all AA cannons (25mm+ refers to them), as well as to machine-guns. It's a bit weird that he mentioned 25mm, since In Russia, IIRC, according to relevant GOST MGs are all calibers below 20mm (maybe it's because there aren't any AA guns with caliber between 20 and 25mm) -- but whatever, the point still stands.

 

It was never changed. And thus now you have learned a valuable lesson about trusting things that alpha testers or even super testers write about game mechanics 

 

PS Man, I should stop being so lazy and go fix up all the wiki game mechanics articles... Then again, unless this thread comes to some conclusion, why even bother: http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/71371-the-world-of-warships-wiki-needs-you/

[BlazerSparta]

This game's AA mechanics suck.

 

Carriers and AA look like they were shoehorned in at the last second after surface combat mechanics were all finalized.

 

What else is new?