Japanese Ships Better Across the Board

[CraftsyDad]

 

I've tiered up solely in American ships because I live in New York so why not? Anyway, it just seems to me that Japanese ships are better across the board. DD's have longer torp range and damage (1 torp can kill a Nicholas), their CVs have more squadrons and better options, their battleships are more maneuverable; I have the NY and hate it. Cannot go any further as its too painful to play. Cruisers I cannot say. I have the Cleveland but am unimpressed with it - the arcing on the main shots is something awful

 

I bought the Atlanta and regret it. Terrible range and terrible armor - why did they sell this ship? Surely you can give us something better for the price?

 

If I were to start over I'd go all out Japanese.

 

[Xannari]

1. Their battleships tend to have pretty much no armour, with the only exceptions being Nagato, Izumo, and Yamato.

2. Their destroyers cannot defend themselves at all against anything that's not another IJN destroyer.

3. The carrier squadrons will get absolutely wrecked by the barrage from any US squadron.

4. Their cruisers are very poorly armoured and are the easiest ships to citadel.

[Lert]

If I were to start over I'd go all out Japanese.

 

Only to find out that your assessment of japanese ships so far is grossly wrong.

 

- IJN battleships are just faster, they're less maneuverable. They're also a lot softer, and have far worse AA.

- IJN carriers have more squads, but with less planes. Japanese squadrons can't go toe-to-toe with USN squadrons, they just get shot out of the air.

- IJN destroyers have longer range torpedoes, but far worse guns.

 

I've tiered up solely in American ships because I live in New York so why not?

 

Because then you would have an actual balanced view instead?

[CraftsyDad]

ha all good points - thank you. I guess the grass is always greener on the other side. Once you start tiering up though its costly to switch to another nation. Then you go all in and suddenly your commited - kinda like my music and movie purchases on Apple.

[Xannari]

ha all good points - thank you. I guess the grass is always greener on the other side. Once you start tiering up though its costly to switch to another nation. Then you go all in and suddenly your commited - kinda like my music and movie purchases on Apple.

 

Just wait until you get the North Carolina. That thing is unbelievably tanky. You can pretty much make yourself immune to AP by sitting bow-on to your opponents.

[Big_Spud]

Japanese battleships as a whole are simply better. As are cruisers.

[Carrier_Taiyo]

OP, why not try out the IJN ships to find out you are wrong, instead of getting all emo about it?

 

Battleships wise, the Wyoming is better than its IJN counterpart. The New York isn't a very good ship, and is outclassed by the Kongo. The New Mexico is an outstanding ship, one of the most fun to play in the game. The Colorado sucks. Some ships, IJN is better, others USN is better, others are about even.

 

With Carriers, both nations' ships are frustrating to play, but frustrating for different reasons.

 

With the Atlanta, I agree. That ship needs work.

[Harkonen_siegetank]

1. Their battleships tend to have pretty much no armour, with the only exceptions being Nagato, Izumo, and Yamato.

2. Their destroyers cannot defend themselves at all against anything that's not another IJN destroyer.

3. The carrier squadrons will get absolutely wrecked by the barrage from any US squadron.

4. Their cruisers are very poorly armoured and are the easiest ships to citadel.

 

Pretty much this. I'm up to the Mogami and any BB as much as look at you....bam citadel, bye bye 70% HP (angled I might add).

[Ulrik]

1. Their battleships tend to have pretty much no armour, with the only exceptions being Nagato, Izumo, and Yamato.

 

 

The only IJN BBs that have worse armor then their USN counterparts aren't even Battleships, they are Battle Cruisers at tier IV and Tier V.

 

2. Their destroyers cannot defend themselves at all against anything that's not another IJN destroyer.

 

 

Have you ever played IJN DDs? The tier V Minekaze, for example, has far better guns then any USN DD it faces.

 

This "IJN have worse guns" is a myth, if you actually use the guns you find that they work just fine, and in many cases are better then the USN.

[Xannari]

Specifically, if you want to compare battleships:

South Carolina = Kawachi [they both suck]

Wyoming > Myogi. Better guns, better armour, better anti air.

New York ≤ Kongo. Kongo is the better sniper, has better speed, maneuverability, and anti air. However, New York is a better brawler.

New Mexico = Fuso. Similar firepower, New Mexico has better anti air, Fuso has better speed.

Colorado < Nagato. Nagato is fundamentally stronger than Colorado, having superior speed, HP, shell ballistics, and secondaries. However, Colorado has a slight edge in defense, as well as superior anti air, so not a complete loss.

North Carolina ≥ Amagi. North Carolina has unbelievably superior defense to Amagi, as well as better compliments to it's favored playstyle and layout of armament. Amagi, however, is a bit of a better brawler, and has the potential to have super brutal anti air, but the armour of Amagi doesn't compliment brawling, and you're still going to die from aircraft.

Iowa > Izumo. I feel like no words are needed for this one.

Montana < Yamato. Yamato, the almighty god-tier battleship of amazingness. The guns are terrifying, the secondaries are like having two cruisers strapped to you, and your armour basically makes you into a floating fort knox.

 

This "IJN have worse guns" is a myth, if you actually use the guns you find that they work just fine, and in many cases are better then the USN.

 

You must be new here.

[Ulrik]

You must be new here.

 

IJN DDs have better speed, better stealth, better torps and better guns (better damage, better velocity, better shell arc).

 

USN DDs have a better fire rate on their guns, but the shell velocity/arc is so terrible that dodging them is easy. 

 

 

Frankly, USN DDs aren't a threat but merely a nuisance... More often then not you can kill them without even being spotted, even in a gun duel its not hard to beat them as the the IJN guns are easier to land hits with while dodging USN sub-orbital spit wads...

[Big_Spud]

Specifically, if you want to compare battleships:

South Carolina = Kawachi [they both suck]

Soccerball is actually a better ship in skilled hands, but tier 3 is a total crapshoot anyways so it doesn't really matter.

Wyoming > Myogi. Better guns, better armour, better anti air.

When comparing the two as battleships I won't argue, but the Myogi can be a superb cruiser hunter at those tiers with its speed, as well as reset caps at long range.

New York ≤ Kongo. Kongo is the better sniper, has better speed, maneuverability, and anti air. However, New York is a better brawler.

New York has to expose its entire broadside to use the central turret, while Kongo can angle and fire all 8 of its guns with faster rate of fire, and more accurately. It also has better armor than New York when angled because its bow is actually armored.

Kongo far and away wins at tier 5

New Mexico = Fuso. Similar firepower, New Mexico has better anti air, Fuso has better speed.

Fuso wins here thanks to better speed, workable AA, a decent turning radius, much better range, better rate of fire and accuracy. Its beating New Mexico in terms of damage by about 20%, and offers a much wider range of gameplay options than New Mexico thanks to its flexibility.

Colorado < Nagato. Nagato is fundamentally stronger than Colorado, having superior speed, HP, shell ballistics, and secondaries. However, Colorado has a slight edge in defense, as well as superior anti air, so not a complete loss.

Nagato is also probably one of the easiest ships to do extremely well in, and could probably do fine as a tier 8 given its HP pool and astounding combination of armor, speed, HP pool, accuracy, range and secondaries.

North Carolina ≥ Amagi. North Carolina has unbelievably superior defense to Amagi, as well as better compliments to it's favored playstyle and layout of armament. Amagi, however, is a bit of a better brawler, and has the potential to have super brutal anti air, but the armour of Amagi doesn't compliment brawling, and you're still going to die from aircraft.

Amagi is actually a much better ship than North Carolina. When angled, neither can penetrate the others bow, and the Amagi can bring all 10 extremely accurate guns to bear while remaining angled while North Carolina can only bring up 6 thanks to WG screwing with its turret angles. If NC goes broadside, it is every bit as easy to kill as Amagi. Amagi also has very good secondaries, better speed, and tends to actually perform more on par with tier 9 battleships than tier 8's. It also has nearly twice the damage resistance to torpedoes than NC for no reason.

Iowa > Izumo. I feel like no words are needed for this one.

After the Iowa AA nerf and survivability re-balance, Izumo is actually on the cusp of beating Iowa now in terms of stats. IJN BB players think Izumo is bad because its an average ship. USN players think the Iowa is amazing because well, its an average ship in a line of below average ships.

Montana < Yamato. Yamato, the almighty god-tier battleship of amazingness. The guns are terrifying, the secondaries are like having two cruisers strapped to you, and your armour basically makes you into a floating fort knox.

 

 

You must be new here.

 

[Takeda992]

 

Have you ever played IJN DDs? The tier V Minekaze, for example, has far better guns then any USN DD it faces.

 

If you're trying to make a point, then at least use ships like Hatsuharu or Fubuki instead of Minekaze. That way, your argument will be taken more seriously.

[CraftsyDad]

yamato ...like trying to attack Fort Knox.

Ha laughed so much when I read this.

 

Great stuff. Lots of opinions, great to get peoples insight. Its been a tough slog these last few days. Today I was on the losing side 6 out of 7 games. its hard to keep going when you lose so much and I guess I'm a little frustrated against coming up against ships that have the upper hand on me whether its speed, torp range, concealability or damage potential.

 

[Xannari]

but the Myogi can be a superb cruiser hunter at those tiers with its speed, as well as reset caps at long range.

 

Not with those 3 hopelessly inaccurate "guns".

 

New York has to expose its entire broadside to use the central turret, while Kongo can angle and fire all 8

 

You have to move to a pretty high angle to fire all 8 guns. You'll be putting yourself at risk if you want to use them all.

 

Fuso wins here thanks to better speed, workable AA, a decent turning radius, much better range, better rate of fire and accuracy.

 

Bad anti air, let's call it that just to be real. The accuracy is pretty misleading; the guns aren't all that accurate at all, they just fire a bunch of shots at once. New Mexico actually has the more real accurate guns, thanks to no offset center of shot spread.

 

Nagato is also probably one of the easiest ships to do extremely well in

 

True for the most part, although there is still the almighty RNG you have to get through. Nagato is a very skillful ship, and takes time to adjust to when coming out of the Fuso.

 

Amagi is actually a much better ship than North Carolina. When angled, neither can penetrate the others bow

 

Yeah... No, and I have confirmed that before through tons and tons of [bitter] experience. Amagi's bow and deck armour can be penetrated by cruiser [light and heavy] guns.

 

Amagi can bring all 10 extremely accurate guns to bear while remaining angled while North Carolina can only bring up 6

 

Amagi's guns have a very large offset center of shot spread, so they're not very accurate. The angle at which you have to turn to put all 10 shots into the impenetrable wall that is North Carolina's nose is very high, and you will get absolutely wrecked by those 6 shots.

 

 IJN BB players think Izumo is bad because its an average ship

 

No, we think it's bad because it is. The way it was designed to be played only remotely works in smaller scale games, which are super rare. It's combat utility is very low, and there's no guarantee that it will work even if you do find yourself in a small game. It's also very easy to place yourself into unwinnable situations unintentionally.

[Big_Spud]

 

Not with those 3 hopelessly inaccurate "guns".

 

You have to move to a pretty high angle to fire all 8 guns. You'll be putting yourself at risk if you want to use them all.

 

Bad anti air, let's call it that just to be real. The accuracy is pretty misleading; the guns aren't all that accurate at all, they just fire a bunch of shots at once. New Mexico actually has the more real accurate guns, thanks to no offset center of shot spread.

 

True for the most part, although there is still the almighty RNG you have to get through. Nagato is a very skillful ship, and takes time to adjust to when coming out of the Fuso.

 

Yeah... No, and I have confirmed that before through tons and tons of [bitter] experience. Amagi's bow and deck armour can be penetrated by cruiser [light and heavy] guns.

 

Amagi's guns have a very large offset center of shot spread, so they're not very accurate. The angle at which you have to turn to put all 10 shots into the impenetrable wall that is North Carolina's nose is very high, and you will get absolutely wrecked by those 6 shots.

 

No, we think it's bad because it is. The way it was designed to be played only remotely works in smaller scale games, which are super rare. It's combat utility is very low, and there's no guarantee that it will work even if you do find yourself in a small game. It's also very easy to place yourself into unwinnable situations unintentionally.

 

If your opinions were fact, than the two lines would be much more balanced than they are now.

 

But they aren't.

[Xannari]

If your opinions were fact, than the two lines would be much more balanced than they are now.

 

But they aren't.

 

Well of course my opinions aren't fact. That's why I didn't share any.

[Lert]

This "IJN have worse guns" is a myth, if you actually use the guns you find that they work just fine, and in many cases are better then the USN.

 

Alright, you take a Minekaze against a Nicholas in a knife fight, see who wins. Yeah the guns on Minekaze are good - if you don't have to maneuver. And a DD that's not maneuvering is food for evrything else with guns.

[Carrier_Taiyo]

 

Alright, you take a Minekaze against a Nicholas in a knife fight, see who wins. Yeah the guns on Minekaze are good - if you don't have to maneuver. And a DD that's not maneuvering is food for evrything else with guns.

 

Lert is right. USN guns are for pouncing on an IJN DD from behind an island at point blank range and taking him out.

 

 

IJN guns are for firing a salvo or two to finish off that big battleship/whatever you just torpedoed and left on a sliver of health. The guns are powerful, but they turn like battleship guns.

[dukerustfield]

I just want to point out that in pretty much every ship in every class in every tier, STATISTICALLY, IJN does much better than USN. Sorting by winrate in all ship types we got the below.

 

In the top 45 ships (removed those with too few results or wacky beta ships) there are:

 

8 USN

10 USSR (and they only have 1 line and a some prems)

20 IJN

5 KM (only 1 line and a prem)

1 RN (only 1 ship)

1 Poland (only 1 ship)

 

USN and IJN have the same number of lines. Clearly, if anything, the USSR is silly OP. But IJN across the board trounces USN. You can argue anecdotes until you're blue in the face, but statistically among hundreds of thousands of battles, IJN is clearly superior.

[GearaDoga]

 

Alright, you take a Minekaze against a Nicholas in a knife fight, see who wins. Yeah the guns on Minekaze are good - if you don't have to maneuver. And a DD that's not maneuvering is food for evrything else with guns.

 

They're not good at all...

 

Extremely slow traverse, as you said, means you can't hit anything unless you stop turning.

 

Extremely slow rate of fire means you're taking 2 or 3 shots for every one you fire.

 

Other DD'S tend to have more guns, as well.  More guns, firing faster, with quick traverse...  these things multiply out of control really fast.

 

And finally, IJN DD modules are stupidly fragile.  Even if they were a match for the USN/VMF ships to begin with (which they absolutely aren't), by the time a few shots have been fired, half the systems on the IJN ship are wrecked, and it's definitely not up to the task anymore.

 

Simple fact is, if an IJN DD runs into anything that's not another IJN DD?  They either have to get insanely lucky, or they die.  

[byronicasian]

 

The only IJN BBs that have worse armor then their USN counterparts aren't even Battleships, they are Battle Cruisers at tier IV and Tier V.

 

 

Have you ever played IJN DDs? The tier V Minekaze, for example, has far better guns then any USN DD it faces.

 

This "IJN have worse guns" is a myth, if you actually use the guns you find that they work just fine, and in many cases are better then the USN.

 

Wait what... please tell me how the Minekaze 4 x 4.7s outguns the Nicholas' 5x  5"/51's or 5 x 5"/38s.

[centarina]

it is bit flatter shooting, but has range of 7.6km    you better hit at those ranges and get hit in return.  I've killed minekaze with   izy by gunning it down.  (it has 4" gun)  

[barbeerian]

 

Have you ever played IJN DDs? The tier V Minekaze, for example, has far better guns then any USN DD it faces.

 

This "IJN have worse guns" is a myth, if you actually use the guns you find that they work just fine, and in many cases are better then the USN.

 

My Nicholas with the A hull guns would beg to differ. Better arc, better velocity, 5 guns, faster traverse so I can shoot and maneuver at the same time, higher ROF, and 4.3km more range. Ya the Minekaze is totally the better gunboat.

 

Clemson eats IJN DDs as well with the 8 high velocity 4" guns, and you're high on crack if you think the Minekaze will do anything to a Farragut or Mahan in a gunfight.

[Ulrik]

 

Alright, you take a Minekaze against a Nicholas in a knife fight, see who wins. Yeah the guns on Minekaze are good - if you don't have to maneuver. And a DD that's not maneuvering is food for evrything else with guns.

 

Actually, I do that all the time. Same/lower tier USN DDs are easy prey (might have something to do with them being cocky thinking they hold an advantage that they really don't), higher tier are a bit of a challenge but not that much. 

 

Basic Fire Training and Expert Marksmen. Minekaze guns are far better then the Nicholas. Better velocity and arc make them easier to hit with. Better damage kills the target quicker. Add in how easy it is to dodge shots from a USN DD...

 

Using the guns while maneuvering is easy, its called "right mouse button". You see, if you are in the gun scope and hold down RMB it drops you back to 3rd person view and locks the guns in place. Then you maneuver while reloading. When you are ready to shoot again you just turn the ship to bring the guns back to the target, letting go of RMB drops you back into the gun scope. Make a small adjustment to aim, fire full broadside, hold RMB and repeat. If you want to be really mean, you can launch these things called torpedoes! Then the silly USN DD can either keep shooting and sail straight into them (happens alot) or stop shooting and turn to dodge. In the rare occasion they are smart enough to actually try to dodge the torps, then you've successfully corralled them, they have to sail where you want them too and can't really shoot back until the torps are gone.

 

 

Soloing a Nicholas in a Minekaze will cost you about 1/3 of your health at most. Unless it is full health and you are almost dead, it is no contest...