Overmatch Mechanics - Which BBs benefit? Extra - Penetration Mechanics

[Deathskyz]

(A redeveloped thread because people keeps thinking I'm talking about Armor and Survivabilty and not about Overmatch and Penetration and also cant stand a Yamato being compared to anything whatsoever because Hotel-Chan is sacred ground and worshiped daily)

 

 

OVERMATCH MECHANICS

 

14.3x

Remember this magic number during this thread.

 

 

For those who play World of Tanks, you would know that Overmatch Mechanics exist. Overmatch in WoT happens when this condition is fulfilled:

Shell Calibre > 3x Thickness of Enemy Armor

For example, a Jagdtiger AP Shell will always penetrate a AMX 13 90's front hull at any angle without exceptions because a 128mm shell is more than 3x the thickness of a 40mm front armor plate.

 

 

In World of Warships, Overmatch mechanics exist as well, Overmatch in WoWS occurs when this condition is fulfilled.

Shell Calibre > 14.3x Thickness of Enemy Armor

For example Yamato's 460mm shells will always penetrate a bow armor of a Iowa because 460mm > 14.3(32mm) = 457.6mm

However you dont really notice Overmatch Penetrations because of OverPenetrations, usually a shell that size compared to an armor that thin would OverPen and deal 10% damage i.e. DDs and CLs.

 

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With the above in mind, lets take a tier by tier analysis on what ships DO benefit from Overmatching?

I this I will only cover Battleships because they do most of the overmatching.

 

The importance of understanding why Overmatch matters is because if you point your bow as a Battleship towards another Battleship in an attempt to heavily angle your front bow armor such that the enemy BB shells will ricochet off, it wont happen because Overmatch Trumps Angles

 

Tier 2:

 Mikasa - Caliber : 305 - Overmaches up to 21mm

Armor scheme

Spoiler

 

Mikasa's can overmatch her own top half of her bow and stern armor. She also can overmatch the top half the bow and stern of the Tier 3 BBs. (She doesn't see tier 4s.)

 

 

Tier 3:

South Carolina - Caliber : 305 - Overmaches up to 21mm

Armor scheme

Spoiler

 

 

Kawachi - Caliber : 305 - Overmaches up to 21mm

Armor scheme

 

Both the SC and Kawachi can overmatch the top half of the their own, the Mikasa's, Myogi and Kongo's bow and stern armor.

The SC and Kawachi can fully overmatch the front of the Wyoming, Arkansas and New York's.

 

 

Tier 4:

Wyoming / Arkansas - Caliber : 305 - Overmaches up to 21mm

Armor scheme

Spoiler

 

 

 

Imperator Nikolai - Caliber : 305 - Overmaches up to 21mm

Armor scheme

 

 

Myogi - Caliber : 356 - Overmaches up to 24.9mm

Armor scheme

 

All the tier 4 BBs can overmatch the top half of the all tier 3, 4 and 5 BBs except the Wyoming and New York, where they gets fully overmatched frontally.

 

 

Tier 5:

 New York - Caliber : 356 - Overmaches up to 24.9mm

Armor scheme

Spoiler

 

Kongo - Caliber : 356 - Overmaches up to 24.9mm

Armor scheme

Kongo's and New York's can only overmatch the top half of the all tier 3, 4 and 5 BBs except the Wyoming and New York, where they gets fully overmatched frontally.

However, they can not overmatch tier 6 BBs.

 

 

Tier 6:

 New Mexico - Caliber : 356 - Overmaches up to 24.9mm

Armor scheme

Spoiler

 

 

Fuso - Caliber : 356 - Overmaches up to 24.9mm

Armor scheme

 

Warspite - Caliber : 381 - Overmaches up to 26.6mm

Armor scheme

 

This is an interesting part. The Tier 6 BBs can overmatch the top half of the all tier 4 and 5 BBs except the Wyoming and New York, where they gets fully overmatched frontally.

Tier 6 BBs can not overmatch each other with the exception of one BB.

The Warspite.

The Warspite is capable of overmatching the top half of the Fuso's armor and can overmatch the whole bow of the New Mexico.

She is also capable of overmatching both Tier 7 BBs bow armor (25mm) as well. Warspite can not overmatch Tier 8 BBs bow armor (32mm)

 

 

Tier 7:

Colorado - Caliber : 406 - Overmaches up to 28.3mm

Armor scheme

Spoiler

 

 

Nagato - Caliber : 410 - Overmaches up to 28.6mm

Armor scheme

 

Both Tier 7 BBs are capable of overmatching themselves but are unable to overmatch any Tier 8 BB.

That being said, they are both capable of fully overmatching Warspite, New Mexico, and New York.

Kongo's and Fuso's can be overmatched if the top half of the bow armor is hit.

 

 

Tier 8:

Tirpitz / Bismarck - Caliber : 380 - Overmaches up to 26.5mm

Armor scheme

Spoiler

 

 

North Carolina - Caliber : 406 - Overmaches up to 28.3mm

Armor scheme

 

 

Amagi - Caliber : 410 - Overmaches up to 28.6mm

Armor scheme

 

Tier 8 BBs are capable of fully overmatching the Colorado and New Mexico.

They are capable of overmatching the top half of Fuso.

However, they are NOT capable of overmatching any tier 8, 9 or 10 BB.

 

 

Tier 9:

Iowa - Caliber : 406 - Overmaches up to 28.3mm

Armor scheme

Spoiler

 

 

Izumo - Caliber : 410 - Overmaches up to 28.6mm

Armor scheme

 

Tier 9 BBs are capable of fully overmatching the Colorado

However, they are NOT capable of overmatching any tier 8, 9 or 10 BB.

 

 

Tier 10:

Montana - Caliber : 406 - Overmaches up to 28.3mm

Armor scheme

Spoiler

 

Yamato - Caliber : 460 - Overmaches up to 32.16mm

Armor scheme

This is where we see why the Yamato is so much better than the Montana.

This is why Yamato outperforms the Montana to such a great degree.

This is the explanation on why the Yamato is always able to penetrate and citadel whilst the Montana cant.

 

Its because the Yamato can overmatch up to 32.16mm of armor. Tier 8, 9 and 10 BBs have bow and deck armor of 32mm. This is why at long range, the Yamato is always able to citadel you because it ignores the 32mm bow armored deck. (On Montana its 29mm on the middle)

 

tl;dr: Overmatch greatly benefits these two ships, the Yamato (which can overmatch up to 32.1mm armor - the common bow, stern and deck armor of Tier 8, 9 and 10 BBs) AND

The Warspite (which can overmatch up to 26.6mm armor - the common bow, stern and deck armor of Tier 7, 6, 5 and Tier 4 BBs [which has 19mm])

 

 

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PENETRATION MECHANICS

(WIP)

 

A good read about dealing damage in World of Warships found here

Formula

 

A as the stated Krupp-value

v as the velocity in m/s,

d as the caliber in decimetres,

m as the mass in KG

result (S_b) is the penetration in decimetres.

 

 

[Tedster_]

Minor note, the game uses the USN Empirical Formula for Armor Penetration, not some other (guessing german from the language of the wikipedia page) formula (despite one of the variables being "krupp")

[Deathskyz]

Minor note, the game uses the USN Empirical Formula for Armor Penetration, not some other (guessing german from the language of the wikipedia page) formula (despite one of the variables being "krupp")

 

Do you have the formula so the Asians can do Math? (We live on Math daily to fulfill our Doctor roles.)

Is it T/D = (0.30386)D^0.25[(W/D³)(V/C)²]^0.625 ??

[pmgaudio]

[General_von_Nuben]

I find the armor penetration mechanics much more complicated in WoWS than WoT.  In WoT, it was relatively easy to assess how an angle would create an "effective armor" number (ie, a 60 degree angle of impact basically doubles the nominal armor effectiveness; and a 70 degree + angle results in an autobounce), and to assess if your shell had the penetrating power to get through it.  After all, in WoT they give you an average penetration number for every gun in the game (subject to 25% +/- RNG) that you can reliably apply to particular shot on a particular target. The WoT x3 overmatch mechanic is useful, though not often in play: I found it most useful only when shooting <40mm turret roofs with 122mm+ guns.

 

In WoWS, though, the overpen mechanic greatly complicates things.  It is not enough that your shell penetrates the armor; in fact, so many parts of so many ships are easily penetrated by almost every shell, from secondary shots to 460mm monster shells.  It has been my experience that having LESS armor is actually beneficial due to the AP mechanic, which requires a shell to "travel a certain distance through the armor before exploding."  I'm a bit fuzzy on the exact numbers, but I remember reading that a 16-inch shell needs at least 50mm of armor to "fuze" before it gets the full penetration damage (let alone citadel).  If it penetrates any part of the ship with less than 50mm, it's only doing the measly 10% overpen damage. 

 

In WoT, there is no overpen.  If your pen number exceeds the target's effective armor number, you pen for full damage.  

 

This is to say nothing about the much greater engagement ranges in WoWS, nor the far greater RNG dispersion, nor the much longer shell flight time (with hard-to-judge plunging angles) which makes it very difficult to place particular shots on particular spots compared to WoT.  When you connect AP with a target, a lot has to be in your favor for it to do full damage; and often you have to read your opponent's mind about where he intends to maneuver before you lead the shot.  

 

While I appreciate WG's disclosure and explanation of the overmatch mechanic in WoWS, I don't find it very illuminating because it is so difficult to separate an overpen from an overmatch in practice.  If you're shooting a 32mm bow with a 460mm shell, for instance, that is still well below the approximately 60mm fuzing threshold for AP.  Unless the target is angled enough to bring the bow's effective armor above the 60mm fuzing threshold, I don't see how there could be an overmatch pen in this scenario (yielding 33% damage per hit, since we're not talking about a citadel).

 

Yet we don't have penetration numbers for each gun.  We don't know their exact penetration power, nor can we realistically assess what kinds of "effective armor" we are dealing with in a fluid engagement.  It's been my experience in my limited time playing WoWS that doing damage with AP is about learning what works and developing an "intuition" for only those shots that yield the big damage.  It's much less scientific than the mental process I undergo in WoT, which is completely determined by my knowledge of the enemy's armor number, my gun's average penetration number, and whether there is an autobounce angle in play.  Because WoWs has no armor penetration numbers--and because there's a very good chance a low armor number will result in an overpen-- I'm forced to simply go for the shots that I've seen work in the past.  It's much more organic, and much less consistent.

[TheShield966]

The overmatch mechanic in World of Warships is unrealistic, is ridiculous that a 76mm armor can bounce a 460 mm projectile, the penetration mechanic should be like World of Tanks

 

[Q_ARMM]

So WG is basically ignoring the existence of the internal armored bulkheads?  These were typically located at the fore and aft ends of the armored belt, creating an "armored box" around the citadel.

[byronicasian]

So WG is basically ignoring the existence of the internal armored bulkheads?  These were typically located at the fore and aft ends of the armored belt, creating an "armored box" around the citadel.

 

I doubt it, on the Gamemodels3d sight, you can see those being modeled in game. 

[Deathskyz]

So WG is basically ignoring the existence of the internal armored bulkheads?  These were typically located at the fore and aft ends of the armored belt, creating an "armored box" around the citadel.

 

You have internal armored bulkheads.

But the thing is, if a shell penetrates your main armor, does not go thru and thru (overpen 10% damage), you will receive a penetration damage where the shell explodes inside the ship and deals 33% damage.

 

Here is Tirpitz's frontal bulkhead.

[CodyMenz]

So WG is basically ignoring the existence of the internal armored bulkheads?  These were typically located at the fore and aft ends of the armored belt, creating an "armored box" around the citadel.

They are in the models.  Even if you overmatch the bow you still need to penetrate the bulkhead to cause citadel/heavy damage.

[Deathskyz]

Man forum formatting is hard...

 

Annddd there we go. Much better now

[Tedster_]

 

Do you have the formula so the Asians can do Math? (We live on Math daily to fulfill our Doctor roles.)

Is it T/D = (0.30386)D^0.25[(W/D³)(V/C)²]^0.625 ??

 

I do not know the exact formula, only that is what it is called (and they use a revised version IIRC) from my conversations with devs.  I'll poke some people.  I'm told in the past that the values for guns posted on Navweaps will match with in-game performance for various guns.

[Deathskyz]

 

I do not know the exact formula, only that is what it is called (and they use a revised version IIRC) from my conversations with devs.  I'll poke some people.  I'm told in the past that the values for guns posted on Navweaps will match with in-game performance for various guns.

 

Please do. I need it for Part 2 of the thread.

A point for me to note. Put Yamato in any thread title and you get a huge influx of visitors to debate that X isnt Yamato or X isnt close to Yamato in any way.

Both this and my previous threads had the same point but somehow this gets less traffic. o.O

[MrDeaf]

this thread has me wondering, do any of the cruisers have enough armor to auto-bounce 381mm, 406mm or 410mm shells?

[Deathskyz]

this thread has me wondering, do any of the cruisers have enough armor to auto-bounce 381mm, 406mm or 410mm shells?

 

None of the cruisers bow have that thick.

Their main belt however, can ricochet shells.

[MrDeaf]

 

None of the cruisers bow have that thick.

Their main belt however, can ricochet shells.

 

always good to know.

 

So, when in cruisers...

356mm = bow on

380mm~410mm = show side, but not broadside

460mm = pray

[Sarpadeon]

 

None of the cruisers bow have that thick.

Their main belt however, can ricochet shells.

 

38cm guns cannot overmatch Baltimore or Des Moines, which have 27mm of bow armor.