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Xannari

Do not allow destroyers to be concealed while firing in a smokescreen

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....you just answered your own problem, the game has no wind so whats the problem? Smoke will linger around a ship without wind. Smoke is organic like water. You cant shoot into the water and suddenly there's just this hole, why would air (what carries the smoke particles) act any differently? Are you suggesting we broke physics of liquids (Air is considered a liquid in this sense) because you dont like a certain mechanic?

 

The game has no wind, therefore any resulting disturbances from within it cannot be equalized very quickly, and would actually take several minutes depending on the force of the explosion.

You don't shoot into water and leave a hole because the molecules of water rush in to fill the resulting gap. Eventually the smokescreen would equalize after a gap is created simply because gravity is pulling the air molecules onto each other, but this is a misleading comparison: Water is much denser, and moves more like a solid than a gas. Moving water will tend to move water around it because of a much more complicated force of drag, which is lightyears ahead of the force you can expect from simple air.

Edited by Xannari

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Hmm check out ~35seconds in.  Now granted this is a plane flying through clouds, but I dont think a shell has enough mass to affect a smoke cloud.... still a cool vid though :)

 

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Wrapping mine in bubble wrap for OP stronkness.

 

That and I like popping the bubbles.

 

:teethhappy:  hey they make bubble wrap wallpaper now....think of the possibilities   :izmena:

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Hmm check out ~35seconds in.  Now granted this is a plane flying through clouds, but I dont think a shell has enough mass to affect a smoke cloud.... still a cool vid though :)

 

 

There, at 0:23. See how slow of a process it is? Something barrages through cloud, gravity takes time remorphing said cloud, getting the denser material down back to it's original altitude. All of the thinly connected hydrogens and oxygens break apart and become transparent, like normal air.

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:teethhappy:  hey they make bubble wrap wallpaper now....think of the possibilities   :izmena:

 

I would have to replace it weekly, something tells me that would get expensive.

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There, at 0:23. See how slow of a process it is? Something barrages through cloud, gravity takes time remorphing said cloud, getting the denser material down back to it's original altitude. All of the thinly connected hydrogens and oxygens break apart and become transparent, like normal air.

 

Its also a matter of volume.  smoke is inherently intentionally thicker than clouds and its also a VERY large 50ton object passing through it.

 

Now I could see potentially a ship creating a partial opening in smoke MAYBE.  If it were going fast enough to generate enough of a wake.

 

A shell though I dont think would do much of anything to it. 

Edited by Skraeling

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From my understanding of the battle, the ships left the concealment of the smoke cloud to fire salvos, and then return to it's safety.

 

From the link you provided, this is the sentence I read: "The battle raged for two and a half hours, with the British ships leaving the safety of their huge smoke screen to fire a few volleys and then returning to it when the Italian salvoes got too close." 

 

Please advise, if I read this incorrectly. Really enjoy learning more about these engagements, and am a big fan of your guides and posts. :honoring:

 

 

 

I was showing how smoke can be used offensively to counter what the OP said:

They were meant as a means of concealment and escape

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I'm going to be blunt, this is one of the worst design choices that could have ever been conceived in this game, let alone be implemented.

This is one of the very few functions in this game that requires absolutely no pattern of execution, skill, timing, or risk.

 

I hear you typing away, and no, it doesn't work. Close up, your barrel elevation is lower when you don't have something targeted, meaning you can't shoot at the same spot where you otherwise would have something targeted to hit it. At range, it's higher, and you can't see where the shots originate anyway.

 

In real life, if you fired inside a smokescreen from any distance, someone if not everyone would see you, as the force of the shell and recoil forces from the turret would disperse the smoke around it, and the shell itself would leave a big hole trailing it. It's very very very very not recommended because the purpose of the smokescreen is to hide yourself, or put a barrier up while you run away. If you want an equivalent comparison as to how unfair this is, imagine being in a 1v1 match as a battleship that has no anti-air or rudder, and going up against a carrier that's faster than you. You'll never see it, be able to shoot at it, or survive the constant onslaught of shipkillers that it sends at you.

 

They were meant as a means of concealment and escape, not a magic 1-way mirror that defies Newton's laws of motion.

 

:teethhappy:I feel your pain...

 

IJN dd..they will torp u with a style ninja style!.............Nerfffffffff

 

US dd with no range of torp..will hide inside smoke and burn u...NErfffffffffffffffff

 

Russian DD..too fast...still hide behind smoke and burn u ..no range of torps...Nerffffffffffffffff

 

How about you stop playing this game..bud. do us a favor sir..

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Its also a matter of volume.  smoke is inherently intentionally thicker than clouds and its also a VERY large 50ton object passing through it.

 

A likely indication that there is more Hydrogen involved. Hydrogen is the lightest element, so it would actually take longer for gravity to push all of those Hydrogens back together through the mostly Nitrogen and Oxygen.

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I'm going to be blunt, this is one of the worst design choices that could have ever been conceived in this game, let alone be implemented.

This is one of the very few functions in this game that requires absolutely no pattern of execution, skill, timing, or risk.

 

I hear you typing away, and no, it doesn't work. Close up, your barrel elevation is lower when you don't have something targeted, meaning you can't shoot at the same spot where you otherwise would have something targeted to hit it. At range, it's higher, and you can't see where the shots originate anyway.

 

In real life, if you fired inside a smokescreen from any distance, someone if not everyone would see you, as the force of the shell and recoil forces from the turret would disperse the smoke around it, and the shell itself would leave a big hole trailing it. It's very very very very not recommended because the purpose of the smokescreen is to hide yourself, or put a barrier up while you run away. If you want an equivalent comparison as to how unfair this is, imagine being in a 1v1 match as a battleship that has no anti-air or rudder, and going up against a carrier that's faster than you. You'll never see it, be able to shoot at it, or survive the constant onslaught of shipkillers that it sends at you.

 

They were meant as a means of concealment and escape, not a magic 1-way mirror that defies Newton's laws of motion.

 

Gonna have to agree with this when your in smoke you should not be able to see out of nor should the enemy see you in it through lets say a cv aircraft overhead

this mechanic defies a lot of common sense rules....the reason i dont agree with it because its a mechanic invited by a bunch of Devs who clearly told us that we could not have smoke in WoT because it just would not work.......lol then they go and make world of warships and add smoke galore.....even wargaming dont know what the hell they are saying just like all of you who defend bad mechanics...

Edited by Sn0vvman
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How about you stop playing this game..bud. do us a favor sir..

 

So you're implying that the best way to get around bad programming is to not be involved in the first place? May I direct your attention to every popular PvP game that has ever existed? May I also direct your attention to this word: Evolution, the process at which an object, action, or idea, succeeds it's previous state, inheriting assets and filtering flaws.

Edited by Xannari

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Don't forget that guns add a hell of a lot of smoke when firing too.

 

 smoke.jpg

 

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The game has no wind, therefore any resulting disturbances from within it cannot be equalized very quickly, and would actually take several minutes depending on the force of the explosion.

 

It also depends on the thickness of the smoke, the smoke in question used during WW2 was titanium tetrachloride. A heavy smoke specifically used because of its properties (and didnt immediately kill or burn you lol).

You don't shoot into water and leave a hole because the molecules of water rush in to fill the resulting gap.

Exactly how the air, which happens to be carrying these heavy smoke particles, works.

 

  Eventually the smokescreen would equalize after a gap is created simply because gravity is pulling the air molecules onto each other,

Gravity does not pull air particles together. That is done by static charges generated by rubbing with other particles and atoms tendencies to be attracted to each other. Another factor that helps smoke stay thick for long periods of time.

 

Moving water will tend to move water around it because of a much more complicated force of drag, which is lightyears ahead of the force you can expect from simple air.

 Drag... bro drag is the part of the reason why there is a vacuum effect. The sudden collapse of the heat bubble created by the explosion of propellant plus the pocket of vacuum that follows every shell would pull smoke into the hole it just created.

 

 

 

 

 

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A likely indication that there is more Hydrogen involved. Hydrogen is the lightest element, so it would actually take longer for gravity to push all of those Hydrogens back together through the mostly Nitrogen and Oxygen.

 

Erm.  Not sure how this is how that works...  Sadly my background is biology and not physics, but... gravity isnt doing the heavy influencing here.  Also not sure where you are getting this hydrogen thing from.
Edited by Skraeling

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Don't forget that guns add a hell of a lot of smoke when firing too.

 

 smoke.jpg

 

 

This picture is a bit misleading as it appears there is a lot of smoke being expelled. This quantity of smoke would only be visible for at most a half second as the shot first flies out. But let's say it did release this much: It's hot, carrying a ton of energy from the originating explosion. It's less dense then the air around it, so it's going to rapidly equalize with the air around it, and anything towards the center moves upward, clearing the way quite quickly.

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Retracted.

 

Point stands. DDs cannot see out of smoke and you cannot see into smoke, like WG God demanded!

Edited by 10T0nHammer

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Erm.  Not sure how this is how that works...  Sadly my background is biology and not physics, but... gravity isnt doing the heavy influencing here.  Also not sure where you are getting this hydrogen thing from.

 

Gravity is the primary thing to consider when talking about states of matter. Strong, weak, or "normal" gravitational influences will determine how dense the atmosphere is at a given altitude, and what state of matter the elements involved exist in.

 

Twice as much Hydrogen is needed as Oxygen to create water, and water placed under dense gasses and/or low temperatures will compact together. This is what you see when you look at clouds, especially ones at high altitude. Of course, smokescreens work a little bit differently because it isn't just Hydrogen an Oxygen. though mixtures of Hydrogen and Oxygen are created as the original components are introduced to the air around it [thicker based on humidity]

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Gravity is the primary thing to consider when talking about states of matter. Strong, weak, or "normal" gravitational influences will determine how dense the atmosphere is at a given altitude, and what state of matter the elements involved exist in.

 

Twice as much Hydrogen is needed as Oxygen to create water, and water placed under dense gasses and/or low temperatures will compact together. This is what you see when you look at clouds, especially ones at high altitude. Of course, smokescreens work a little bit differently because it isn't just Hydrogen an Oxygen. though mixtures of Hydrogen and Oxygen are created as the original components are introduced to the air around it [thicker based on humidity]

 

Gravity is only 1 of the 4 forces that matter when it comes into "making anything strong" and its very complex and honestly, I barely understand it and I've read the crap out of science docs lol

 

I want to see where you are getting this information because... its not wrong but its definitely not right. Water forms specifically from 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen, then you blow them up to (well just apply heat lol) and they form a water molecule. Clouds do form together by water molecules but not because of low temperature, they form because the air higher in the atmosphere has less junk particles, particles that keep water molecules from clinging to each other, and are able to redirect enough visible light to appear. For a great example of this, talk salt, poor it into water and shake it. The salt disappears! But throw in a piece of string that was rolled into in salt, let the water settke, the salt molecules being pushed apart are attracted to the salt on the strong and you start forming a salt crystal. This is of course a dumbed down version as the the atompshere is a little more complex than a cup full of salt water.

Edited by 10T0nHammer
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I was showing how smoke can be used offensively to counter what the OP said:

 

Was the smoke being used offensively? Or was it used defensively to provide a screen so the cargo ships and escorts could break contact and get to Malta to resupply the British?. 

 

Maybe a bit of both. The first five divisions of Admiral Sir Philip Vians' fleet used smoke to conceal the convoy. The sixth British division used hit and run tactics from the smoke cloud (shooting when they exited the smoke screen); which ensured they kept the Italians off balance as a delaying tactic.

 

All in all, I really like this discussion and learning more about this particular sea engagement.

 

Thanks again for pointing me to it!  

 

"At 14:30 the next day, the British were faced by a pair of heavy cruisers and escorting destroyers. Admiral Vian immediately implemented his plan; the cargo ships and escorts turned away to the south while the light cruisers and remaining destroyers laid smoke and charged the Italians. After an exchange of fire, the two Italian heavy cruisers backed off in an attempt to lure the British toward the incoming main Italian squadron, and at 16:37 they returned to attack with the battleship Littorio, a light cruiser and their screening destroyers.

 

The battle raged for two and a half hours, with the British ships leaving the safety of their huge smoke screen to fire a few volleys and then returning to it when the Italian salvoes got too close."

 

The Assessment portion of the wiki:

 

"Almost all sources with an opinion on the matter have assessed the battle as a British victory, credited to the escort of light cruisers and destroyers which successfully prevented the Italians from inflicting any damage whatsoever on the convoy by staving off an Italian squadron, composed of a battleship and two heavy cruisers, while fending off heavy Axis air attacks. On the other hand, some authors while generally acknowledging the British success, write of the battle as a partial Italian achievement in delaying and turning the convoy aside.

Nearly all sources acknowledge the Italian fleet inflicted significant damage and several casualties on the British squadron while suffering minimal damage and no casualties in return. The action, however, represented a failure on the Italians' part to exploit their advantage and destroy the convoy. Indeed, they were unable to sink or cripple a single cargo ship. This was due to Admiral Vian's vigorous and skillful defence in the face of a superior adversary. The overwhelming strength of the Italian fleet was not fully exploited by Admiral Iachino also because bad weather and lack of radar prevented him from continuing the pursuit of the convoy at dusk.

But when the main objective, to re-supply Malta, is included in the assessment, the outcome is different. The British intention to reach Malta before dawn with a substantial escort was disrupted by the intervention of the Italian Navy. This left the cargo ships exposed to Axis air supremacy.

Thereafter, Italian and German aircraft caught the British convoy at sea and chased the surviving steamers to the harbour; more than 80% of the supplies were lost. The British convoy operation was, therefore, a strategic failure."

 

All the information from: Second Battle of Sirte wiki here

 

 

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Well it depends on your what your definition of "offensive" is. If I am in a DD and my engine is blown out and enemy rushes me. I pop smoke and open fire on the enemy and ready my torpedoes, was that offensive or defensive? What If my engine was fine under the same scenario? If you want to tie it to intent, any action is offensive as its done to undermine the enemy some how. Just my opinion of course.

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Gravity is only 1 of the 4 forces that matter when it comes into "making anything strong" and its very complex and honestly, I barely understand it and I've read the crap out of science docs lol

 

I want to see where you are getting this information because... its not wrong but its definitely not right. Water forms specifically from 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen, then you blow them up to (well just apply heat lol) and they form a water molecule. Clouds do form together by water molecules but not because of low temperature, they form because the air higher in the atmosphere has less junk particles, particles that keep water molecules from clinging to each other, and are able to redirect enough visible light to appear. For a great example of this, talk salt, poor it into water and shake it. The salt disappears! But throw in a piece of string that was rolled into in salt, let the water settke, the salt molecules being pushed apart are attracted to the salt on the strong and you start forming a salt crystal. This is of course a dumbed down version as the the atompshere is a little more complex than a cup full of salt water.

 

Bonding 2 Hydrogens and 1 Oxygen to form water does not leave you with the amount of energy you started with in said water molecule; you get slightly less. When you say clouds don't form together because of low temperature, while that's not the only reason, they do; the lower energy state of the atoms and molecules more time to be affected by each others' attractive and repulsive charges, as well as the tiny amount of gravity each one has. That's why I said especially ones at high altitude, because the ambient temperature is lower, and the atmosphere is less dense.

 

The salt example is comparable by some margin. The saturating effect will take less time depending on how densely saturated the water is with salt, unless of course you hit supersaturation in which you may just want to use supercooling as an example. It's much easier. 

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Well it depends on your what your definition of "offensive" is. If I am in a DD and my engine is blown out and enemy rushes me. I pop smoke and open fire on the enemy and ready my torpedoes, was that offensive or defensive? What If my engine was fine under the same scenario? If you want to tie it to intent, any action is offensive as its done to undermine the enemy some how. Just my opinion of course.

 

I would think the smoke is a defensive measure, but you went on the offense from the smoke. But I can see where you could argue that smoke can be used in this situation to assist in your offensive attack. 

 

Regarding the Second Battle of Sirte, I honestly think smoke was used defensively. The British ships used the smoke for concealment (defense), but left that protection to engage the enemy to ensure they could be delayed. The delaying action was defensive in nature, to ensure the convoy and it's escorts could get to Malta and not be destroyed by the Italians. My opinion as well.

 

I suppose it boils down to my mindset, and how I view what happened. As it looks different for you. 

 

I really do appreciate the articulate manner in which you have discussed this battle, and kept it a respectful and even minded discourse. 

 

Thank you!

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Ah the daily DD OP thread...

 

 Do not push the second one...

Spoiler

 

 

did you steal that from me recently???? lol ever time I post it I get all kinds of up votes

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trt0s_zpsjqh3pane.jpg

 

OP YOU ARE UNTEACHABLE and apparently unwilling to wander from your opinion on a game based very VERY loosely on real life and you have no idea what WG is doing to make a slight balance to DDs and their extreme vulnerability.. and also the inability to actually see through smoke, from either ship UNLESS A TEAM MATE HAS YOU SPOTTED FROM OUTSIDE THE SMOKE IN WHICH CASE YOU WILL BE SEEN DUE TO THE PROXIMITY OF SAID TEAM MATE...
but you go one thinking you are the ONLY one here that is correct in or assumption/opinion... we see this kind of crap all the time... and since you are unwilling to succumb to the actualities of this game and try to base REAL LIFE where it does not exist, I bid you farewell, this has gotten boring...

 

 

 

 

GIF-Boring-Bored-This-is-boring-Im-bored

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