A detailed look at Schleswig-Holstein

[dseehafer]

Greetings all,

 

    Today im doing my first pre dred, because i want to and because im spicing it up a little. So as we all know, the Mikasa (the only pre dred currently in game) sucks nards, and because it sucks so much i feel it has discouraged WG from adding more pre dreds, i almost think that WG was sticking their toes in the water with the Mikasa, just trying to get a feel if pre dreds would be able to compete at all. But, as we all know people are going crazy over owning a Mikasa (has nothing to do with it's historicall significance of course, but rather the anime character  ... not that i have a problem with anime, but i do have a problem with people who are only into certain ships/ ships in general because of that ship's anime character, nothing personal, just kinda erks me) But if historical significance is what justified the Mikasa, then surely the ship that bloody started WWII deserves a spot in game right? Anyways enough hullabaloo, lets get to the history...

 

     The S-H was the last of 5 Deutschland class pre dreds built by the German Kaiserliche Marine. The ships was layed down in 1905 and completed 3 years later, already being severaly outdated in size, speed, armor and firepower by the arrival of the Drednoughts, which made all existing pre dreds obsolete practically overnight. However S-H was the fastest, most heavily armored and most expensive of her 4 other sister ships. During WWI the S-H saw service with the II Battle Squadron of the Hochseeflotte (High seas fleet) and even participaeted in the famous Battle of Jutland (or Der Tag "The Day" if your German) where she was hit by a single large calibre shell. After the battle the S-H spent the rest of the war as a Guard ship to the Elbe river mouth before being decommisioned in late 1917. As one of the few battleships Germany was permitted by the TOV S-H was again pressed into service during the 20's and was eventually converted into a training ship in 1935. S-H fired the first shots of WWII when she bombarded the Polish base on Danzig's Westerplatte in the early mornings of September 1st 1939 and continued bombarding Polish positions in support of the German infantry until the 13th of September, on the 27th she joined her sistership the Schleisen and moved to Hel where she continued to bombard Polsih positions. She was also in the fleet that invaded Denmarck in April of 1940. She was then transfered back to traning duties until 1943 when it was decided to ress her back into service because she burned coal and therefore needed no oil, oil was very scarce for the Germans in the late half of the war. She was to be sent for reffit as a convoy escort ship with increased AA armament but was bombed 3 times by RAF bombers and settled into the shallow waters of Gotenhaffen. As the ship was permanantly dissabled her crew was sent to help with the defense of Marienburg. To keep the ship from falling into Russian hands the ships was scuttled to further destroy the ship. She was raised in 1946 by the Soviets and towed to the Gulf of Finland and beached for use as target practice, which continued until 1966. whats left of her remains in that very spot today.

 

Well if you survived the wall of text, congratulations! now ill get into the stats as she appeared in 1939 when she bombarded Poland.

 

WEIGHT - 15,318t

 

she weighs slightly less than Mikasa at 15,979t, and should have similar hitpoints.

 

ARMOR

Belt: 240mm

Turrets: 280mm

Deck: 40mm

 

compared to Mikasa S-H has a 11mm thicker belt, 77mm thicker turret armor, and a 11mm thinner deck. Overall S-H has superior protection.

 

MAIN BATTERY - 2x2 280mm (11")

 

These are an inch smaller than mikasa's guns but they fired at 2rpm compared to Mikasa's 1rpm (buffed in game to 2). They also fired 290fps faster than Mikasa's and fired over twice as far, 30,350yd compared to 15,000yd. Historically S-H severely outgunned the Mikasa, in game however Mikasa will have better dps and dpm because of the reload buff. However S-H should realistically get better range and better velocity than Mikasa, which should make her more user friendly.

 

SECONDARY BATTERY - 10x1 150mm, 4x1 88mm

 

S-H has a secondary broadside of 7 guns compared to Mikasa's 15 secondary gun broadside.

 

AA BATTERY - 4x1 88mm, 2x2 37mm, 22 x 20mm

 

S-H would be the best AA ship at tier 2 in game, heck her AA would be fine at tier 5! 

 

SPEED - 19.1kn

 

S-H was considerably faster than her sisters which could manage only 17kn. shes is also 1.1kn faster than Mikasa. Historically the Deutschlands had extremely small turning circles although they bled ALOT of speed completing such a menouvre.

 

CONCLUSION - Compared to Mikasa S-H is faster, better armored (exept deck armor), has better AA (duh) and historically fired farther and at a higher velocity. Mikasa wins in dps and dpm as well as having slightly more hitpoints and having twice as many secondary guns. I would like to have a Schleswig - Holstein just because i think shes purty and also because she freaken fired the first shots of WWII. She may never end up in game... but one can dream.

 

PROS OVER MIKASA

better armor overall

better range

faster

higher velocity shells

great AA

 

CONS UNDER MIKASA

less dps

less dpm

half as many secondary's

less hitpoints

 

Well hope you enjoyed this one, let me know what you think and as always, have a good day!

 

    

[Omega_Weapon]

Nice post. I would love to see tier 2 pre-dreadnaught battleships for all the navies in game and Schleswig-Holstein would be the obvious choice for Germany. Plus 1 sir.

[thegamefilmguruman]

Dang, she is a pretty ship.

[Guest]

What a beautiful little design, she would definitely fit quite well at tier 2, and would probably compete well with the Misika :3 

[Cruiser_Gneisenau]

I'm biased, but I feel like a better middle ground would be to add armored cruisers. You can see some of the basic stats for my ship in my signature, but, suffice it to say, for T2/3, I think some of the later ACs would bring that dreadnought 'feel' without tanking things for the team entirely. This is because of heavy gun totals. While predreadnoughts (outside a few oddball vessels) were almost universally limited to 4 main artillery pieces, later Armored Cruisers actually upped their main armament numbers to acceptable levels -- and thus, in WoWs, could potentially be competitive boats in a way predreadnoughts aren't.

 

Frankly, I'd support adding a tier -1 and having it just be a free for all with every predreadnought, armored cruiser and torpedo boat imaginable, but, barring that, adding ACs could give us that Victorian/Edwardian feel we crave without universal suckage. 

 

Plus, they were pretty to look at:

 

SMS Scharnhorst:

 

 

SMS Blucher:

HMS Defense:

HMS Black Prince:

[dseehafer]

I'm biased, but I feel like a better middle ground would be to add armored cruisers. You can see some of the basic stats for my ship in my signature, but, suffice it to say, for T2/3, I think some of the later ACs would bring that dreadnought 'feel' without tanking things for the team entirely. This is because of heavy gun totals. While predreadnoughts (outside a few oddball vessels) were almost universally limited to 4 main artillery pieces, later Armored Cruisers actually upped their main armament numbers to acceptable levels -- and thus, in WoWs, could potentially be competitive boats in a way predreadnoughts aren't.

 

Frankly, I'd support adding a tier -1 and having it just be a free for all with every predreadnought, armored cruiser and torpedo boat imaginable, but, barring that, adding ACs could give us that Victorian/Edwardian feel we crave without universal suckage. 

 

the problem with Armored cruisers is that they are multi calibre, something that WG doesnt have in WOWs or WOT. and most armored cruisers have few large guns and many small calibre guns. For example a typical armored cruiser may only have 4 8" guns, but it would have 12 6" guns. making it more logical to use the 6" guns because a ship with 4 8" guns would struggle to perform. And multi calibre armored cruisers may over perform for their respective tiers. in the end you would end up with well armored well armed but slow high tier cruisers. I think WG should take their time exploring armored cruisers, they are rather tricky to balance.

[Cruiser_Gneisenau]

 

the problem with Armored cruisers is that they are multi calibre, something that WG doesnt have in WOWs or WOT. and most armored cruisers have few large guns and many small calibre guns. For example a typical armored cruiser may only have 4 8" guns, but it would have 12 6" guns. making it more logical to use the 6" guns because a ship with 4 8" guns would struggle to perform. And multi calibre armored cruisers may over perform for their respective tiers. in the end you would end up with well armored well armed but slow high tier cruisers. I think WG should take their time exploring armored cruisers, they are rather tricky to balance.

 

Well, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau had 8 x 8.1. Blucher had 12 x 8.1. Defence was unusual in that she had 4 x 9.1 and then 10 x 7.5. However, before we slam the door on mixed main battery ships, keep in mind that Kawachi already sets a precedent for including them. Kawachi is considered by many historians to not be a true dreadnought because her main battery was actually 4 x 12-inch/50 guns, and 4 × twin 12-inch/45 guns. The differing calibers meant that she had a battery of varied performance -- the same as many Armored Cruisers. However, there were far more ACs running around with a more standard battery from about 1907 onwards than their were predreadnoughts.

 

Again, I'm not trying to crap on your parade -- I want to see the earlier ships in the game, too (and, in many ways, I think it would produce a more ideal battle scenario, being devoid of carriers), but ACs could potentially represent a better stepping stone than adding more predreadnoughts and "failing."

[Hurlbut]

-snips-

The last picture show....casemounted torpedo tubes?

[dseehafer]

 

Well, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau had 8 x 8.1. Blucher had 12 x 8.1. Defence was unusual in that she had 4 x 9.1 and then 10 x 7.5. However, before we slam the door on mixed main battery ships, keep in mind that Kawachi already sets a precedent for including them. Kawachi is considered by many historians to not be a true dreadnought because her main battery was actually 4 x 12-inch/50 guns, and 4 × twin 12-inch/45 guns. The differing calibers meant that she had a battery of varied performance -- the same as many Armored Cruisers. However, there were far more ACs running around with a more standard battery from about 1907 onwards than their were predreadnoughts.

 

Again, I'm not trying to crap on your parade -- I want to see the earlier ships in the game, too (and, in many ways, I think it would produce a more ideal battle scenario, being devoid of carriers), but ACs could potentially represent a better stepping stone than adding more predreadnoughts and "failing."

 

And im not disagreeing with you, i love armored cruisers and the role they play. Just saying there are some balance issues there, look at the French armored cruisers and their armament arrangements, even russian armored cruisers like Gromoboi have wacked up armament arangements. the ones you listed are more "normal"

[VTAdmiral]

I take exception to claiming people only wanted Mikasa due to the KanColle character.

 

There is no KanColle character representing Mikasa, for starters.

[Cruiser_Gneisenau]

I take exception to claiming people only wanted Mikasa due to the KanColle character.

 

There is no KanColle character representing Mikasa, for starters.

 

Mikasa was an odd choice in general. Let's face it: she wasn't exactly a 'cutting edge' predreadnought. The Germans were obliged to tote along the fünf minuten geschwader, composed to 'modern' predreadnoughts to Jutland, but even that didn't have ships in it as old as Mikasa (and was only expected to survive for five minutes -- thus the name). The fact the Mikasa is being tasked with taking on ships 10 years her junior (or more) is hardly a fair expectation. At least a ship like Schleswig Holstein was the most most advanced example of her type. 

[StahlEinherjar]

Best Ice Breaker in the KM, by far! Good post!

[dseehafer]

I take exception to claiming people only wanted Mikasa due to the KanColle character.

 

There is no KanColle character representing Mikasa, for starters.

 

never said kancolle.. said anime... Miakasa is a character from attack on Titan

[VTAdmiral]

 

never said kancolle.. said anime... Miakasa is a character from attack on Titan

 

Who has nothing to do with ships so inferring that's why people want a boat is more than a little silly.

[Cruiser_Gneisenau]

Guys, there's no need to battle about it. 

 

Mikasa was added because of its recognition as a ship, essentially being the Japanese equivalent of HMS Victory. However, it's hardly a good example of later dreadnought designs, which were faster, as well as more heavily armed and armored. It's 1900 (really 1898) tech trying to take on, at best, 1910 foes -- it just doesn't work. Other predreadnoughts would arguably do a lot better (and, in fact, an HMS Nelson might conceivably tear it up, if we could control the small caliber wing turrets). 

[Omega_Weapon]

 

Who has nothing to do with ships so inferring that's why people want a boat is more than a little silly.

 

Actually it was one of the selling points for me. The anime character Mikasa really knows how to kick butt. Besides that though, Mikasa was a famous flagship in a pivotal battle, and she even survives to this day as the last pre-dreadnaught in the world. Those alone were enough reason to want her included.

[mr3awsome]

The thing with armoured cruisers is that they are armed for high tiers but have the speed of low tiers. Placing them is a difficult thing.

[Lord_Magus]

Mikasa can be made not awful and other pre-dreadnoughts like this one made viable by just letting them (and only them) having the largest-caliber secondaries be treated as main guns for firing purposes. That would have its own complications of course, but it seems like something worth trying. And getting additional pre-dreadnoughts and armored cruisers in the game is a worthy goal.

[jkirschy]

SECONDARY BATTERY - 10x1 150mm, 4x1 88mm

 

S-H has a secondary broadside of 7 guns compared to Mikasa's 15 secondary gun broadside.

 

Out of curiosity I looked up the Deutchland class' original secondary armament. It was at least as good as Mikasa's since it sported 14 17cm guns and 22 8.8cm guns, or 18 secondaries per side. If this class of pre-dreadnought was to be included in the game I'd suggest making it a tech tree ship and giving the player the option of the original armament (a hull) or the final armament (b hull).

 

MAIN BATTERY - 2x2 280mm (11")

 

These are an inch smaller than mikasa's guns but they fired at 2rpm compared to Mikasa's 1rpm (buffed in game to 2). They also fired 290fps faster than Mikasa's and fired over twice as far, 30,350yd compared to 15,000yd. Historically S-H severely outgunned the Mikasa, in game however Mikasa will have better dps and dpm because of the reload buff. However S-H should realistically get better range and better velocity than Mikasa, which should make her more user friendly.

 Just out of curiosity, could the fact that the rate of fire of Mikasa's main guns was buffed be used as a justification to increase the rate of fire of the Deutchland class battleships? Say up it to 2.5 or 3 rounds per minute. After all the 11" guns on the Nassau have a rate of fire of almost 3 rounds a minute. Surely the Deutchland class could be given a similar rate of fire right?

 

And getting additional pre-dreadnoughts and armored cruisers in the game is a worthy goal.

 Agreed. Though I'd expand that statement to include getting additional ships from the New Steel Navy era (regardless of type or nationality) into the game is a worthy goal.

 

[Lord_Magus]

Out of curiosity I looked up the Deutchland class' original secondary armament. It was at least as good as Mikasa's since it sported 14 17cm guns and 22 8.8cm guns, or 18 secondaries per side. If this class of pre-dreadnought was to be included in the game I'd suggest making it a tech tree ship and giving the player the option of the original armament (a hull) or the final armament (b hull).

 

Personally I quite like the idea of every battleship line getting a pre-dreadnought at Tier 2. But I can see why fixing Mikasa and introducing other pre-dreadnoughts wouldn't be WG's top priority.

[Francois424]

They don't even want to fix Mikasa.  If WG does not want to take Pre-dread seriously they I hope they don't add more of them, it's insulting.

BUT.  and this is good, Tier1 is effectively dead, out of the game.  They cannot meet tier 2 so it does not exist.  Rename Tier1 as "Training tier", then you have newtier1 and tier2 that can both meet each other, anf you can add a lot of interesting designs from the Pre-dreadnought area.

 

THAT would be fun.