What makes a good IJN destroyer

[Xannari]

Being blunt right from the start, what makes a good IJN destroyer is the following:

Stealth

Speed

Maneuverability

Torpedo speed, range, and quantity

Only decent guns

 

All of the destroyers will be rated under the assumption that all players take lessons from what they are given to start with, and will be of equal skill throughout the entire line.This also only talks about them fully upgraded.

 

Umikaze

Umikaze - 5.6Km surface concealment range, 33 knot speed, 540m turning circle radius, 2.7 second rudder shift time, 2 double torpedo tubes, maximum 8Km range torpedoes with a speed of 48 knots that do 6800 damage max each, 3 120mm guns with a reload time of 10 seconds each, a firing range of 6.7Km, and full 3.14 radian degree turn time of 22.5 seconds.

 

Umikaze is a solid tier II from a game design standpoint. The very generous 5.6 Km surface detection range will show the player that IJN destroyers have a shorter detection range than any of their national rivals. The 4 second rudder shift time and high speed compared to other tier IIs will show everyone that other IJN destroyer have a high speed and maneuverability, especially when compared to the Sampson. This ship also teaches destroyer tactics by giving a them a massive torpedo range of 8Km: This is to let the player get a feel of what it's like to use your torpedo range and concealment to your advantage. The torpedo speed is also a good choice, and is hugely slow in order to show that torpedoes need lead to reach their targets just like artillery fire, but wont travel nearly as fast, and thus require a lot more prediction. The decreased on the rate of fire from the upgraded 8Km range torpedoes also show that sometimes more potent torpedoes wont fire as fast.

 

There's a lot of teaching tools in Umikaze's design, which while not a super potent ship, makes for an excellent tier II ship to instill the feel of how these ships should be played.

 

Wakatake

Wakatake - 6.1Km surface concealment range [2.5 by air], 35.5 knot speed, 470m turning circle radius, 2.7 second rudder shift time, 2 double torpedo tubes, maximum 7Km range torpedoes with a speed of 57 knots that do 10833 damage max each, 3 120mm guns with a reload time of 12 seconds each, a firing range of 9.4Km, and full 3.14 radian degree turn time of 30 seconds.

 

Wakatake doesn't have much in the way of new things to bring to the table, however it does have larger torpedoes that are faster. If anything can be said about this in terms of what it teaches a player, the faster torpedoes are more difficult for targets to avoid, but that larger torpedoes allow slightly further detection range. The more potent torpedoes with a slower rate of fire also further cement the idea that potency and speed are inversely proportional.

 

What's there to say? It's a decent ship for tier III

 

Isokaze

Isokaze - 6.1Km surface concealment range [2.9 by air], 34 knot speed, 530m turning circle radius, 2.7 second rudder shift time, 3 double torpedo tubes, maximum 7Km range torpedoes with a speed of 68 knots that do 14400 damage max each, 4 120mm guns with a reload time of 10 seconds each, a firing range of 9.1Km, and full 3.14 radian degree turn time of 22.5 seconds.

 

Isokaze is one of the stars of the IJN destroyers, having a similar concealment to Wakatake with only a slightly lower speed, respectable guns, and excellent torpedoes. Isokaze's torpedoes are very quick, sinking any and all ships not aware of their presence, or not on high alert. It's not the quickest ship, and is actually outclassed in speed by it's rival, Clemson. However, the guns can provide a respectable defense, having a slower rate of fire, but being larger caliber. The torpedoes can also be spread fairly wide and are very fast, so at close range, they can be a game winner.

 

Isokaze is just a good destroyer in a lot of respects, combing torpedo speed, quantity, and rate of fire very well for a tier IV. Definitely one you should play if you want to see big numbers, or just live and interesting life.

 

Minekaze

Minekaze - 6.2Km surface concealment range [3.1 by air], 39 knot speed, 550m turning circle radius, 2.1 second rudder shift time, same torpedoes as Isokaze, 4 120mm guns with a reload time of 10 seconds each, a firing range of 7.6Km, and full 3.14 radian degree turn time of 30 seconds.

 

Minekaze is the perfect example of a great IJN destroyer; It is the fastest ship of the entire IJN tech tree along with Shimakaze, but solely the most maneuverable, the torpedoes are fast, there's 6 of them, they reload fairly fast, they have good range, the guns are respectable [but are outclassed at tier V], and the maps of tier V compliment it's play style fairly well.

 

Minekaze is a fan-favorite, and for good reasons. It's a very skillful ship with great potency, and it's fun to play.

 

Mutsuki

Mutsuki - 6.2Km surface concealment range [3.1 by air], 37.5 knot speed, 550m turning circle radius, 2.1 second rudder shift time, 2 triple torpedo tubes, maximum 10Km range torpedoes with a speed of 59 knots that do 16267 damage max each, 2 120mm guns with a reload time of 5.5 seconds each, a firing range of 7.6Km, and full 3.14 radian degree turn time of 18 seconds.

 

Mutsuki strays quite a ways away from what it means to be a good destroyer; The torpedoes are larger, slower, reload slower, and are mounted in 2 triple launcher instead of 3 double launchers, meaning you can't spread them out as much. The speed is more on par with that of other nations, the guns are completely unacceptable for a tier VI [low real DPS], and a few new maps, as well as player mentality and play style in general, do not compliment the method of play Mutsuki was designed for.

 

Mutsuki is not a good example of even a decent destroyer, having bad guns and unacceptable torpedoes.

 

Hatsuharu

Hatsuharu - 6.7Km surface concealment range [3.5 by air], 36.5 knot speed, 580m turning circle radius, 2.1 second rudder shift time, 2 triple torpedo tubes, maximum 10Km range torpedoes with a speed of 62 knots that do 17233 damage max each, 2 double 127mm guns with a reload time of 10 seconds each, a firing range of 9.3Km, and full 3.14 radian degree turn time of 25.7 seconds.

 

Hatsuharu is perhaps the worst destroyer in the entire IJN line. The torpedoes are large, fairly slow, mounted inefficiently, and take a long time to reload. The guns are not terrible, but you wont be winning any gunfights with someone that's not about to die. In fact, Hatsuharu has the lowest theoretical DPM of any destroyer in the entire tech tree. The speed is not good for a tier VII, the maneuverability is only decent, and that combined with the low range to detection ratio means that if you're found, you're dead. There's no room for error, and everything has to work perfectly for you, which never works in this game.

 

Hatsuharu is the perfect example of a bad destroyer. It is the least ninja-like of any other destroyer in the entire game, which completely goes against almost everything that the early tier destroyers have taught the player.

 

Fubuki

Fubuki - 7Km surface concealment range [3.8 by air], 35 knot speed, 640m turning circle radius, 2.5 second rudder shift time, 3 triple torpedo tubes, maximum 15Km range torpedoes with a speed of 57 knots that do 17233 damage max each, 2 127mm guns with a reload time of 8.9 seconds each, a firing range of 10Km, and full 3.14 radian degree turn time of 25.7 seconds.

 

Fubuki is a bit closer to being ideal. The speed is worse than Hatsu, and it's not as maneuverable. However, the torpedoes have an excellent range of 15Km, and fires 9 of them per salvo. This allows a very wide spread, and you don't have to worry too much about being detected. A few Fubuki players do prefer the B hull over C for the added gunfire, which would give it a rather high theoretical DPM. All in all, it's a decent ship with unprecedented range for a tier VIII, and a high range to concealment ratio.

 

It's not a ship that lives in interesting life, but can be used to much greater effect than it's two predecessors.

 

Kagero

Kagero - 6.8Km surface concealment range [3.8 by air], 35 knot speed, 640m turning circle radius, 2.7 second rudder shift time, 2 quadruple torpedo tubes, maximum 20Km range torpedoes with a speed of 67 knots that do 20967 damage max each, 2 127mm guns with a reload time of 8.9 seconds each, a firing range of 9.4Km, and full 3.14 radian degree turn time of 30 seconds.

 

Kagero in some ways downgrades from Fubuki; 1 less torpedo, slower rate of fire, lower turret traverse time, ect. However, Kagero and Shimakaze carry the torpedoes with the longest range in the game. At 20Km, they are fast, and although large, can easily hit and cripple large ships that aren't very maneuverable. You shouldn't expect to hit anything at 20Km, but you can surely instill fear into large ships. These potent and high speed torpedoes give Kagero an unrivaled theoretical DPM, only surpassed by Shimakaze. The concealment is okay when you compare it to the large map size you will see in most games. The guns are not as good compared to Fubuki only by a slim margin, however they are not bad, but should never be your primary armament against anything that is not another IJN destroyer.

 

Just about the only complaint I'd have with Kagero it's it's torpedo reload time of a full 2 minutes, which can be shortened to 1:48 with the Torpedo Armament Expertise skill, which if you don't have at this point, you should reconsider your life choices.

 

Shimakaze

This will be Shimakaze without the torpedo upgrade, because it's not a real upgrade, let's be honest here.

Shimakaze - 7.6Km surface concealment range [3.5 by air], 39 knot speed, 690m turning circle radius, 3 second rudder shift time, 3 quintuple torpedo tubes with the same torpedoes as Kagero, 3 127mm guns with a reload time of 7 seconds each, a firing range of 9.8Km, and full 3.14 radian degree turn time of 25.7 seconds.

 

Shimakaze sits only slightly ahead of Kagero. The guns are acceptable, but the torpedoes are mighty; launching 15 per salvo for 20Km. Kagero does beat out Shima in reload time by 30 seconds, but though this gives Kagero a slightly higher theoretical DPM, it gives Shima a higher real DPM. The higher speed lets you traverse the map quicker, letting you get to more advantageous spots faster than most other ships.

 

Having a high real DPM definitely puts Shimakaze at tier X.

 

You can argue on all day about whether or not your ship is good or not if you're a good captain, and there is some truth to this. However, in one of these destroyers, if you cannot willfully make is perform to full, or even half of it's theoretical potency by will, then that is the fault of the ship, not you.

It's like trying to squeeze a lump of coal into a diamond: You can do it with ease if you have the strength and technique, but if you make a rock out of Graphene, it doesn't matter how hard you squeeze, you will never get the diamond you want.

[Mason3ck]

I would say a good IJN DD cappin knows where the enemy as much as he knows where he is.

 

Actually that applies for every ship nvmnd...

 

"If you can see it you can hit it, if you can hit it you can kill it"

 No idea where that quote is from, heck I could've made it

 

[tooboku]

To be blunt what makes a good IJN DD is the captain.

 

All the ships do what they're supposed to do, especially Mutsuki. She's the little gem that gets a bad rap because people still try to play her like a low tier DD.

[Xannari]

To be blunt what makes a good IJN DD is the captain.

 

All the ships do what they're supposed to do, especially Mutsuki. She's the little gem that gets a bad rap because people still try to play her like a low tier DD.

 

Which is a terrible design choice; you should not make a destroyer that suddenly has a huge change in the way it should be played that goes against what a player has learned, while keeping the structure of ship attributes intact. As of now the player has learned that torpedoes can be reloaded with decent speed, and can be spread over a wide area for high coverage. The torpedoes themselves would be either fast, or be detected from a very short distance. That goes out the window with Mutsuki; the torpedoes are slow, they can be detected from far away, and they can't be spread as efficiently.

She also can't defend herself against any national counterparts, or even other IJN destroyers. This makes Mutsuki contrast with how the ships were designed to be played almost entirely.

[bad_arcade_kitty]

to begin with, mutsuki has a bit better guns than minekaze... also she is much safer to play than minekaze due to her 4 km safety buffer comparing to 1km on minekaze

her 10 km torps allow some stuff which minekaze cannot fetch due to her shorter torps, like torping caps (it's how i got 2 fb my two last games in a row sinking bucky and blysk) and generally using torps for area deny

i would gladly play mutsuki over minekaze (and actually i do)

 

my hatsuharu did very well, but i felt like mutsuki was better... the slower speed and worse concealment don't overweight better guns (i didn't use her upgraded torps since i passed her with power leveling in 39 games, but by their stats they are not significantly better either)

 

fubuki greatly lacks speed, with her speed and turn radius, and bensons with fletchers stalking nearby, leaving aside a lot of planes, 10 km fast torps are not a safe option and you may have to pick 15 km ones... but as a dd you have to cap and there the speed and maneuverability becomes a great pain; cruisers and fast dd are a pain too, mutsuki can dance around cruisers shooting torpedoes, fubuki can only hope to flee if a cruiser gets on her tail not even daring to change her course to launch torps; her guns are good though, i once outgunned and killed fletcher with bucky, well she was damaged :3 anyway gun kills are common, i also set 20 fires for emden with bucky too

 

kagero has the same speed/maneuverability like bucky, but her torps are significantly better albeit 3x3 launchers are better than 2x4

 

i met too few shimakaze, but she seems decent... anyway i bet nobody contest caps with shimakaze, at least i will not

[Skraeling]

fyi... my maxed out kagero... 5.4km surface detection  3.1km air.  its a monster with those ranges.

[SeaRaptor]

Also, at Tier IX and X you are able to equip a ship upgrade (for 3 million credits) that lowers your torpedo reload time by a further 15%.  Stacked with the captain's skill - for a total of 25% reduction to reload time - Kagero reloads in 90 seconds and Shimakaze in about 110.

[centarina]

I like mutsuki as well due to its flexiblity.   it can avoid any fight it can't win most of the time and it has good enough torps to do the job.     Hatsu  wasn't a big enough upgrade though.   the faster torps do help though.     Fubuki has been hit or miss so far for me.  sticking with 10km , but I really need to be less aggressive with it.   I seem to get mostly 9-10 tier with it and that really is tough for bucky. 

[tooboku]

Will say that I've gotten somewhat fearless playing ranked with Mutsuki. Carried my teams pretty hard. Mutsuki has great guns. Even hull C configuration, with only 2 guns, they still have more DPS than all four of Minekaze's. They also turn faster and almost never get taken out. I've even gone full out knife fight with cruisers in ranked and she stands a pretty good chance.

 

As much as I disliked Hatsuharu when I had her, I never felt like she was a bad destroyer. She was another good ship that needed to be treated right in order to succeed.

 

Also, Kagero is no downgrade. 5.4km concealment range is pretty effed up. I feel like I'm obligated to warn the other team before I launch. Sometimes I do and they still get hit. The 4 spread is pretty nice and really you do only need two launchers. There's no fear of Gearing or even Fletcher either like you would have to be with Fubuki. Kagero can hold her own gun-wise... more so than Fubuki actually. My only complaint about her guns is the short short range... but that's okay. I guess you can't be BOTH a stealth torp and a stealth fire ninja too easily. With AFT and 5.4km detection... she would actually a bit OP imo.

[Xylo]

 

Which is a terrible design choice; you should not make a destroyer that suddenly has a huge change in the way it should be played that goes against what a player has learned, while keeping the structure of ship attributes intact. As of now the player has learned that torpedoes can be reloaded with decent speed, and can be spread over a wide area for high coverage. The torpedoes themselves would be either fast, or be detected from a very short distance. That goes out the window with Mutsuki; the torpedoes are slow, they can be detected from far away, and they can't be spread as efficiently.

She also can't defend herself against any national counterparts, or even other IJN destroyers. This makes Mutsuki contrast with how the ships were designed to be played almost entirely.

 

I disagree with this statement.  Granted, I don't have anything higher tier than the Muts, but the lesson that the Muts teaches is the best lesson of all:  She teaches patience and planning.  She teaches the skipper that invisibility is your best and only friend at sea.  She also teaches a wonderful lesson in area denial.  All of which seem to work well with her.  

 

So the Muts is designed to play within the cloak of invisibility, stalking her prey from the shadows, setting up patient shots and using her long range torpedos to keep the enemy on their toes.  

 

But hey, if she's a "bad" DD, then I can't wait to unlock better ones.

[Jakob_Knight]

 

I disagree with this statement.  Granted, I don't have anything higher tier than the Muts, but the lesson that the Muts teaches is the best lesson of all:  She teaches patience and planning.  She teaches the skipper that invisibility is your best and only friend at sea.  She also teaches a wonderful lesson in area denial.  All of which seem to work well with her.

 

So the Muts is designed to play within the cloak of invisibility, stalking her prey from the shadows, setting up patient shots and using her long range torpedos to keep the enemy on their toes.

 

But hey, if she's a "bad" DD, then I can't wait to unlock better ones.

 

The Mut isn't a bad IJN DD at all (note I will always speak of the ship as fitted with the 10-km torpedoes, as this ship -is- uniquely bad with the stock torps and obviously built with the 10-km torps as the expected loadout).  However, it is the first introduction to IJN high-tier DD gameplay, and many players can't make the transition from the fast-firing, short-range knifefight style of T5 and below to the long-reload, long-range stealth fighting that IJN DDs have to undertake after T5.  In the C-hull, the ship is laser-sharp specialized in what IJN DDs are built to do, which is stealth long-range torpedo attack, while also having one of the best (if not the best) AA armament of an IJN DD to defend against the most dangerous threat to DDs in T6+....enemy aircraft.  It sacrifices considerable ability to attack with its guns, but IJN DDs generally shouldn't be in positions where they need them, so as long as it stays doing what it is designed to do, it can succeed.  That it also maintains a higher speed than any other DD after this until the last DD in the line also helps.

 

 

So, don't believe everything you hear about the Mut being bad.  She isn't.  She is the most specialized of the IJN DDs in what an IJN DD does, and is the first time the player has to cope with not having torpedoes they can fire and expect to have reloaded quickly.  Players who also specialize in what she does can make the Mut dance.  Others will simply want to push onwards to less-specialized IJN DDs, though they will probably have a tough time of it if they don't have the skills needed for the Mut.

 

[Skraeling]

  Others will simply want to push onwards to less-specialized IJN DDs, though they will probably have a tough time of it if they don't have the skills needed for the Mut.

 

 

Honestly you are just wrong.  I did terrible with the mut.  I did great with everything else up the line.  Hell my kagero alone is 10k dmg above server average.

[SeaRaptor]

I seriously struggled with Mutsuki and Hatsuharu after the pure joy of Minekaze.  I couldn't wait to be rid of those ships.  Fubuki was pure joy, however.  

 

Hatsuharu is probably the most under-armed ship I've had the misfortune of playing given some of the opponents it sees.  She simply doesn't have enough guns and her torpedo reload is too long and her detection range too high to be highly effective at Tier VII.  Plus, I played her back in the CV heyday when there were bloody planes everywhere (same with Mutsuki, now that I think on it).

[Xannari]

 

I disagree with this statement.  Granted, I don't have anything higher tier than the Muts, but the lesson that the Muts teaches is the best lesson of all:  She teaches patience and planning.

 

Which would be acceptable if the change to "patience and planning" was A. Gradual, B. Effective, and C. Total.

Planning, while not necessarily difficult, can be ruined very easily and suddenly, and if the intention of the design of Mutsuki was to be able to hit and run, then she should be able to actually run, not limp.

Mutsuki tries far too hard to teach the new style of play to a player, while keeping the torpedo quantity of the lower tiers. If the objective is to be able to hit opponents from afar, why not keep the efficient arrangement from Minekaze? You have little room for error with the 2x3 layout. The change from swift, silent, and deadly also changes to long range all-or-nothing within one tier, while inheriting attributes from low and high tiers; that is a very bad design choice. This is the same reason why people don't like Furutaka; it's an ineffective awkward middle. If we're going to make a change in play styles, make a destroyer that can gradually teach every necessary lesson using the same teaching structure as Umikaze and Isokaze [More potent torpedoes = slower reload. More torpedoes = slower reload]

[centarina]

WG doesn't care that much about "training"       Overall though,  if you spend enough time to get good at each tier, I think you are better off, rather than just grinding through.   for example, my isokaze dmg stat was above average, but my win rate was below average.  I learned to play the map during latter part of minekaze, which is what you need to succeed in mutsuki.     So, when I went to mutsuki, I had no problem with the play style and kept up a stat that was almost as good.     Tier 6-7 is tough mostly due to  higher tier MM that it sees more than DD issue.    Now, as I am in Fubuki, I am  learning new skills to suceed at tier 9/10 battles.   it is different play style again, but I am getting better.     

 

it really takes about 30 battle before I can adjust to   new tier.    if you are in a hurry, you will never adjust.      

[tooboku]

Honestly you are just wrong.  I did terrible with the mut.  I did great with everything else up the line.  Hell my kagero alone is 10k dmg above server average.

 

Hmm... ever consider trying her again now that you've got more experience? Maybe you might like it?

The other day I accidentally started a game with Fubuki... no captain skills, no modules... I did like 70k+ damage on torps plus another 33k+ in HE and fires. The other team even had 2 Bensons, a Fletcher, and a Shimakaze. Sunk a Benson with a torp, and then finished off a Tripitz and an NC with fires.

During ranked I was carrying pretty hard with Mutsuki too. Had at least 1700XP most games. There were quite a few where I died right away though.

[Xannari]

 She is the most specialized of the IJN DDs in what an IJN DD does, and is the first time the player has to cope with not having torpedoes they can fire and expect to have reloaded quickly.

 

Uhh... by "specialized" I think you mean good for only one situation that rarely happens.

Mutsuki is the first time a player has had torpedoes that take a long time to reload, yes, but retains the quantity of the previous two tiers with a less efficient layout. The torpedoes can be detected from further away and don't travel as fast. Mutsuki herself is also slower, less maneuverable, and has unacceptable guns for a tier VI [even if she is an IJN destroyer]. This makes her anatomically inferior to Minekaze, and even Isokaze in almost every way, with the exceptions of raw speed and stealth over Isokaze.

 

If Mutsuki is supposed to be a destroyer with the teaching tools of a late tier IJN destroyer, give her the profile of a late tier destroyer right out of the box so any fault of performance can be placed on the player. Giving her the profile of a low tier with the play style of a late tier, like I said before, is the same reason Furutaka is not a good ship; it's a heavy cruiser with the armour of a scout cruiser.