Realism over made up fantasy

[The_Chiv]

No matter where you go on these forums you will see a rant about x ship is "OP" or this set of balances made this class useless. Playing off and on since alpha I can tell you that there are a great many things I love about this game and loath.

 

Destroyers-

-Reality- Depending on the nation destroyers were used for escort and anti submarine duty. They were not the stealth surprise buttsex they are in this game. Destroyers did not carry reloads as reloading while at sea and or in combat was suicidal, not to mention each one of those torps weighs a ton and would need a hoist, wench, or elevator system, which they did not have. on ship. Destroyers escorted the out side of a fleet to act as eyes and to screen with smoke the fleet if needed. 

-In game- With no subs in game one of the main roles of a destroyer is gone. This combined with the fantasy of reloads taking less then 2 minutes has turned the class into something it never was.

 

Carriers

-Reality- Carriers took time to launch recover and refuel and rearm. Planes take off 1 at a time and land 1 at time. Rearming an entire attack wing took about 90 minutes, at least for IJN. Torpedo bombing was also prone to problem in the early part of the war with failures due impact with water causing casings to break and or cause the torpedo to go off its intended course. All combat carriers had fighter planes to perform C.A.P. Combat air patrol. This was to protect the ship and the fleet escorting it. Getting close to squadron of ships was very dangerous due to the AA umbrella.

-in game- From recovery to launch takes 2 minutes. Players can select not to take fighters, Getting close to any ship is pretty safe as AA and scaling cause the effectiveness of AA to be less then stellar.(there are some exceptions to this Any US bb from t7 up and t8 and up cruisers.)

 

Cruisers

-Reality- Cruisers were the mainstays of the fleet. They provided fire support to land, sea, and air targets with great ease. Some were specialized for specific tasks, Like launching a bunch of torps that could travel 20+km.

-Ingame- Cruisers are arguably the one class that is as true to reality as they were historically.

 

Battleships

-Reality-. Big, slow, armored, obsolete, artillery platforms.."when", they hit they were devastating to any target they touched. Most armoring of the battleships were done in consideration of who their enemys were and what guns they were using.  Over penetration occurred mostly on the end of IJN against USN destroyers...Against more armored ships such as a cruiser the rounds would be more effective. The one great asset they provided was fleet AA umbrella. Many ww2 us battleships won awards for how effective the AA cover they were able to put up and how it probably saved many lives.

-ingame- very true to reality. They are slow, cant turn to save their life, Ranges are mostly correct. AA however is a topic of great debate as many of the aa systems in game are not based on factual data and are in many ways ineffective. This combined with scaling of ships on the water really takes away from one of the greatest strengths a battleship provides to the game. 

 

So what does all this mean. Half the ship classes in the game play and are stated based on fact. While the other half are given fictional reloading mechanics to not only give them a sustained advantage that is further compounded by the historical limitations imposed on the other classes.

 

Im not gonna sit here and say oh Battleships should have a faster rate of fire, cause I know just how silly that is, however I will say that there are somethings I am shocked and rather disappointed, that are in this game and have yet to be addressed and when those points are looked out they tend to favor fiction over historical and always at the expense of historical. Normally I would not give a care as its a game, but when the developers use historical reference as a reasoning to a change in game and yet does not apply the same logic to other parts of the game, well it gets a little crappy.

[Batwingsix]

Ah, check forums and right off the daily DD's are OP thread with a bonus part being the already broken CV's are also OP.

 

Balance over realism

 

[J30_Reinhardt]

Where the hell have you been?

[1nc0mp3t3nt_1]

Realism does not equal fun game play.

[Kookaburras]

The only thing realistic about this game are the ship models, for the most part. 

[Sir_Godz]

This game is far from a sim and can't ever be so they have to cherry pick whatever they can to make the game playable. WG makes the mistake of ever commenting on realism as an excuse why something is the way it is. The only response they should offer is because "it is a more playable game that way".

I have a clear view of an office low rise on the other side of a valley about 2.5 k away. I've seen a DD up close and it would be a tiny portion of that building if it was silhouetted. In reality at 7k I wouldn't even be able to see  that DD yet in the game it is more than clearly visible. Point being, the odd real element in the game is the exception not the rule.

[pmgaudio]

[J30_Reinhardt]

The only thing realistic about this game are the ship models, for the most part.

 

They aren't even proportional to each other sooooo..... no.

[Kenjister]

I think the Devs are actually remarkably consistent with their choices in where to use historical or not.

The game design philosophy is this: All classes should be able to equally effect the outcome of a battle.

So, DDs, who's primary target of subs are gone, get their secondary purpose (torps and fleet screening) buffed. To make this effective torps need reloads, and moderately fast ones.

CAs, who would never be able to take a BB in real life get fires and HE damage to do so.

CVs, if closer to reality, would be insanely overpowered. Planes would have godlike speed, dive bombers would be raining death, and AA would be rather ineffective. Gameplay would also be horrendously boring with giant alpha and extremely long reload times.
As such, plane reloads were decreased, planes were slowed down, and AA made a magical 360 degree bubble.

 

once each classes contribution ability was balanced, they tend to stick with numbers.  Hard numbers that are well known are kept unchanged for as long as possible.  Of course balance trumps all.  But I can see their reasoning.

[Xero_Snake]

You want "realism", get out of here and play St*** Oc*** instead.

[Lampshade_M1A2]

Realism does not equal fun game play.

 

Is this implying the "balance" we have currently in high tiers does equal fun game play?

[zchen27]

You do know that most of the server population barely have enough neurons to form a reflex arc from their hands to their spines, right? Asking them to play a realistic game is about as feasible as making pigs fly.

[Paint_Huffer]

No matter where you go on these forums you will see a rant about x ship is "OP" or this set of balances made this class useless. Playing off and on since alpha I can tell you that there are a great many things I love about this game and loath.

 

Destroyers-

-Reality- Depending on the nation destroyers were used for escort and anti submarine duty. They were not the stealth surprise buttsex they are in this game. Destroyers did not carry reloads as reloading while at sea and or in combat was suicidal, not to mention each one of those torps weighs a ton and would need a hoist, wench, or elevator system, which they did not have. on ship. Destroyers escorted the out side of a fleet to act as eyes and to screen with smoke the fleet if needed. 

-In game- With no subs in game one of the main roles of a destroyer is gone. This combined with the fantasy of reloads taking less then 2 minutes has turned the class into something it never was.

 

Carriers

-Reality- Carriers took time to launch recover and refuel and rearm. Planes take off 1 at a time and land 1 at time. Rearming an entire attack wing took about 90 minutes, at least for IJN. Torpedo bombing was also prone to problem in the early part of the war with failures due impact with water causing casings to break and or cause the torpedo to go off its intended course. All combat carriers had fighter planes to perform C.A.P. Combat air patrol. This was to protect the ship and the fleet escorting it. Getting close to squadron of ships was very dangerous due to the AA umbrella.

-in game- From recovery to launch takes 2 minutes. Players can select not to take fighters, Getting close to any ship is pretty safe as AA and scaling cause the effectiveness of AA to be less then stellar.(there are some exceptions to this Any US bb from t7 up and t8 and up cruisers.)

 

Cruisers

-Reality- Cruisers were the mainstays of the fleet. They provided fire support to land, sea, and air targets with great ease. Some were specialized for specific tasks, Like launching a bunch of torps that could travel 20+km.

-Ingame- Cruisers are arguably the one class that is as true to reality as they were historically.

 

Battleships

-Reality-. Big, slow, armored, obsolete, artillery platforms.."when", they hit they were devastating to any target they touched. Most armoring of the battleships were done in consideration of who their enemys were and what guns they were using.  Over penetration occurred mostly on the end of IJN against USN destroyers...Against more armored ships such as a cruiser the rounds would be more effective. The one great asset they provided was fleet AA umbrella. Many ww2 us battleships won awards for how effective the AA cover they were able to put up and how it probably saved many lives.

-ingame- very true to reality. They are slow, cant turn to save their life, Ranges are mostly correct. AA however is a topic of great debate as many of the aa systems in game are not based on factual data and are in many ways ineffective. This combined with scaling of ships on the water really takes away from one of the greatest strengths a battleship provides to the game. 

 

So what does all this mean. Half the ship classes in the game play and are stated based on fact. While the other half are given fictional reloading mechanics to not only give them a sustained advantage that is further compounded by the historical limitations imposed on the other classes.

 

Im not gonna sit here and say oh Battleships should have a faster rate of fire, cause I know just how silly that is, however I will say that there are somethings I am shocked and rather disappointed, that are in this game and have yet to be addressed and when those points are looked out they tend to favor fiction over historical and always at the expense of historical. Normally I would not give a care as its a game, but when the developers use historical reference as a reasoning to a change in game and yet does not apply the same logic to other parts of the game, well it gets a little crappy.

 

Destroyers: Actually most Japanese destroyers and crusiers carried at least a half set of extra torpedo's, and had the ability to reload while underway (I don't think they would have tried it during combat though). As far as I know the Japanese destroyers were pretty unique in this regard. I know that some of the other navy's would fit their cruisers with reloads, but I have never seen them on any non-Japanese destroyer.

 

Cruisers / Battleships: In game most of of these ships have a max firing range that is only 1/2 - 3/4 of what they could actually acheive. This is done to game play purposes. An Iowa could fire at a range of round 42,000 yards (21 nautical miles). At that range it takes one of the Iowa's 16" AP round 77 seconds to reach it's target. I don't think that anyone here wants to try to dealing to target leading on that sort of scale. Also, even with their radar directed gunnery, the Iowa's had very poor accuracy at max range. The U. S. Navy expected no more then 2.7% of rounds to hit a battleship sized target at that range simply due to the amount of dispersion you get from a 21nm flight. In fact assuming you started with a full loadout of 1,220 rounds you could expect to achieve around 33 hits by the time your magazines were dry.

 

Carrier: The launch and landing cycles are compressed for game play purposes just like the Battleship and cruiser firing ranges.

[1nc0mp3t3nt_1]

 

Is this implying the "balance" we have currently in high tiers does equal fun game play?

I wouldn't know that yet. Checking my stats you would see my highest non premium tier ship is the Tirpitz. 

 

And from the tier 10 battles I have been a part of, there are too few tier 10 players yet to be warranting me to want to rush. I don't want to wait 2-3 minutes for a battle just to fight an 8V8 with almost no chance of turning a profit

[H_Skillet]

You do know that most of the server population barely have enough neurons to form a reflex arc from their hands to their spines, right? Asking them to play a realistic game is about as feasible as making pigs fly.

 

Anime Fans ftw

[1nv4d3rZ1m]

So if you dont like how it is currently maybe you should suggest changes that make the game more like how you want it and still are fun for all the classes. 

 

For example if you dont like the Destroyer invisibility and torp reloads how do you suggest that they still be playable without those features? Who would play destroyers if they were spotted way out and only got one set of torps?

 

How about carriers, who would play carriers if it took 90 minutes to arm the planes in a 20 minute game? 

[Misniso]

During a major mission, Carriers also had a tendency to sortie most of their planes.  To get around the AA umbrella, you overwhelm it.  Instead, we get reserves to be prepped and launched when the active group wipes.

 

Not only that, carriers generally gave pilots a mission objective and it was up to the pilot to determine how it was accomplished.  None of this real time communication and micromanagement.  Heck, in this game, we even get to dictate when the pilots can release their payload.

[Mister_Rawr]

Similar to my other post in another thread.

 

For the game's purposes each player enters with zero experience and progresses non-temporally through tiers of ships that are organized more by how much damage they can do than the amount of assumed responsibility, or from whichever time period each ship existed.  

 

Battleships and carriers are immense investments by a nation, ones that are entrusted to only very senior and seasoned officers, and to which many smaller, specialized assets are assigned to defend.  My own experience was earning and playing the first available battleships after one day.  

 

In any given team there are between three and four (excepting the occasional Tirpitz gluts) battleships and between zero and two carriers.  For an "ideal historical" fleet consisting of that many capital ships there would have been at least an equal number of cruisers and easily a dozen destroyers.

 

Unless Wargaming totally and radically reworks their experience and progression system, the game just will not work like that.  What we are forced to play with are battleships and carriers that are roughly equivalent to their historical counterparts, and are used to set a sliding scale that winds up requiring destroyers roughly equivalent to three or six (or more?) of their historical counterparts.  Otherwise who would play a destroyer that's going to be reliably obliterated by a keel shot from a single 16" shell?

 

As far as I know, that game doesn't exist.  Yet.

 

-R

 

 

[Viscount]

Didn't even read the thread, but.....realism...if that's what you want why are you even playing anything from wargaming? These aren't simulator games here, and a really good naval battle sim would be......well, do not want.

[centarina]

real simulation wont exist as CV will rule em all.    you could do a Jutland type battle where you have more chance of success between BB,  BC and Cruisers.     (almost no DD/torpedos)  but not WW2.   in reality during WW2,  torpedoes were involved with more than 50% of all US warship losses.   72% for larger warships.     think about that too.

[Max_Dispersion]

Simple answer is - Accurate games do not make $ vs casual / arcade

 

This is not the game fore you

[Gunplay813]

The game isn't supposed to be realistic but having a DD vanish into thin air on a sunny day is just hilariously bad.

[Batwingsix]

I wouldn't know that yet. Checking my stats you would see my highest non premium tier ship is the Tirpitz. 

 

And from the tier 10 battles I have been a part of, there are too few tier 10 players yet to be warranting me to want to rush. I don't want to wait 2-3 minutes for a battle just to fight an 8V8 with almost no chance of turning a profit

 

[Max_Dispersion]

The game isn't supposed to be realistic but having a DD vanish into thin air on a sunny day is just hilariously bad.

 

So..how would you balance DD's so they also get a chance to kill any ship in the game ?

 

[1nv4d3rZ1m]

 

So..how would you balance DD's so they also get a chance to kill any ship in the game ?

 

 

He just trolls DDs he does not want them to have a chance.