Just an experimental question......

[IPlayWithAppleTree]

If there is a clear divide in roles between lower tiered VMF DDs, IJN DDs, and USN DDs (gunboat, torpedo ninja boat, and boat between either roles, (respectively)), what would come out better looking in a tier 4-5 fight with 4 people, two teams; IJN DD + VMF DD vs 2 x USN DD?

By the way, distance from both pairs go from 10km to knifefighting-torpedo-instakill range, (whole range of fight goes from 10km to 0.3km). All ships are equally skilled in their role, but seriously weak in their weaknesses.

And by the way, it takes place in capture point C in map Land of Fire, or the big clumpy place with tons of islands, and the whole place is littered with destroyer corpses from decades of fighting where destroyers usually try and kill each other?

Which one would look come off better?

[centarina]

what tier?  also range makes a big difference.

 

at under 6km,   I have to give the nod to US DD, but IJN/vfm  does have one advantage of  spotting first and longer range. they need to keep it at longer range to have chance to win.  if they can keep it at 8km+, they should win.   Also,   getting torps to hit in these type of combat is unlikely, so it will all be gunfire.

 

tier 4 would be  Isokaze/izyaslav  vs  2 clemson. 

 

6/6.5km  concealment   vs 6.8km concealment

    18x2000 @9.1km and     60x1500       10.2km range         vs  4x2 at68.8x1500   8.6km

 

 

[Falls_USMC]

If the two USN DDs can close to under 6km without getting hit by VMF too much on the way in, and focus fire, then they win easily. I'm going off of tier 5 and two Nicholas' working together who are skilled players, with no enemy cruiser support would eat a Minekaze and a Gnevny for lunch. 

[tooboku]

What tier?

Assuming this is only a 2 vs. 2 "knife fight" and the ships have the following configurations...
(Refer to my favourite thread.)

 

USN Captain Skills => [1] Situational Awareness, [2] Expert Marksman, [3] Superintendent, [4] Advanced Firing Training, [5] Concealment Expert

IJN Captiain Skills => [1] SA, [2] Torpedo Armament Expert, [3] SI, [4]Last Stand, [5] CE
VMF Captain Skills => [1] SA, [2] EM, [3] SI, [4] AFT (some might prefer Last Stand), [5] CE
 

USN Mods => [T1+] Main Battery 1, [T3+] Propulsion 1, [T5+] Main Battery 2, [T6+] Steering Gears 2, [T8+] Concealment System 1, [T9+] Gun Fire Control System 2

IJN Mods => [T1+] MB1, [T3+] SG1, [T5+] MB2, [T6+] SG2, [T8+] CS1, [T9+] Torpedo Tubes 3

VMF Mods => [T1+] MB1, [T3+] P1, [T5+] MB2, [T6+] SG2, [T8+] CS1, [T9+] Main Battery 3

 

No signal flags and type 1 camo only.

 

====================

 

T2: Clear Edge VMF + IJN. I really want to say it's even here. Umikaze is way ahead of both damage wise but I want to say that t's because no one at this tier knows how to use the rudder... but the IJN was way ahead of everyone else at this point of history as well. She has both DDs outclassed on everything but top speed.

 

T3: Slight edge to VMF + IJN. Would say even. Derzki doesn't seem to be doing too hot but still, Wakatake is pretty far ahead of them both. The guns at this tier don't do enough damage to deter the direct frontal assault. 

 

T4: Edge goes to VMF + IJN. Isokaze and Izyaslav are the two most feared ships in this tier. The IJN game at this point is more aggressive than the USN. Guns still don't hurt a lot at this tier while torps still hit all classes consistently. Clemson has better numbers than Izyaslav recently but the gap between both of them and Isokaze is ridiculous.

 

T5: Slight edge to USN. Want to say slight edge to Gnevny + Minekaze though since Nicolas isn't doing so hot right now. I'm not really afraid to engage a Nicolas in any ship. At this tier though, the Gnevny isn't likely to take a Nicolas out with it even if they focus on it first. The Minekaze might be faster but it's going to have a hell of a time trying to torp two Nicolas from the edge of concealment range. Sure isn't going to win a gun fight.

 

T6: Edge to USN. Want to say it's more even as well but it's a very special person who can knife fight in a Mutsuki. She's actually doing the best out of the three damage wise but that is because her torps are tuned for area denial. The Ognevoi has too much ground to make up for since her torps are tuned for super close quarters while her guns are more useful against USN for the range. More salt to the wound, the Farragut has over 2.7km of stealth fire advantage.

 

T7: Edge to VMF + IJN. Kiev is a borderline cruiser at this point so this works like a cruiser with an IJN DD as a spotter. Kiev also has a lot of speed and a slightly longer gun range so it can keep kiting the Mahan from the edge of its range. While the Mahan still has 2.1km of stealth fire on the Kiev, the Hatsuharu is within spotting distance and is fast enough to fire and move out of detection range.

 

T8: Don't mess with a Tashkent and a Fubuki who team up. Just don't. Don't mess with a pair of Bensons either. I can't pick a winner in this one. This is a tier where all three lines have finally stepped into maturity. In a full 12 vs. 12 game all 9 ships this tier on will still be effective for their teams in a tier 10 match.

 

T9: Clear edge to USN. Fletcher is a beast. AFT + GFCS2 gives her 17.5km max gun range with 8.4km of reach past her 9.1km concealment range after firing. Udaloi doesn't get GFCS2 so it has a terrible reach handicap at 14.5km. The Fletcher can pepper the Udaloi all day without retaliation. The thing to watch out for is if the Kagero is around. Without AFT, she still has .4km of stealth fire playroom against the Fletcher. Too bad the Fletcher is faster will catch her easily. Best chance for the VMF + IJN is for the Udaloi to stay far enough back and hope she's still close enough to intercept the Fletchers at close range before they catch the Kagero after she spots them. The Fletcher has better torpedo configuration for a knife fight though. Kagero kind of goes further down that stealth torp rabbit hole.

 

T10: Clear edge to VMF + IJN. There are just way too many tactics at their disposal. Two Gearing also beat a Khabaraosk and Shimakaze on gun DPS both in HE and in AP. Gearing also has the same concealment as Shimakaze and suddenly at this tier she's on par with Fubuki and Kagero as a torpedo boat. I want to say the edge goes to Gearing here for all the times I've had my [edited]handed to me in a one sided gun fight but I don't have the Shimakaze yet. 15 torpedoes per salvo which is a lot to deal with even for a Gearing so a Shimakaze doesn't really need to give her position away by returning gun fire. Khabarovsk may not have GFCS2 but she still has 15.6km with AFT vs. Gearing's 15.1km with AFT and GFSC2. The VMF has .5km of playroom to kite the Gearing if they are both visible to each other. If the Shimakaze is spotting, then the Khabarovsk is also firing from stealth range. The Gearing need to take out the Shimakaze first if they want a chance against the Khabarovsk. The thing is that Gearing is the slow ship here so the Shimakaze only has to troll them into firing at her so that the Gearing get the 2 second penalty and then sail out of her own concealment range.

 

 

Now... to stop picking on USNs. One on one, it's probably more even between the VMFs and the USNs especially Gearing vs. Khabarovsk. Gearing has better armor and more DPS. Khabarovsk has better AP DPS and more HP. Having the IJN there to spot makes a huge difference when one side has a reach advantage but the Gearing will probably come out on top against either one-on-one.

[Wulfgarn]

What tier?

Assuming this is only a 2 vs. 2 "knife fight" and the ships have the following configurations...

(Refer to my favourite thread.)

 

USN Captain Skills => [1] Situational Awareness, [2] Expert Marksman, [3] Superintendent, [4] Advanced Firing Training, [5] Concealment Expert

IJN Captiain Skills => [1] SA, [2] Torpedo Armament Expert, [3] SI, [4]Last Stand, [5] CE

VMF Captain Skills => [1] SA, [2] EM, [3] SI, [4] AFT (some might prefer Last Stand), [5] CE

 

USN Mods => [T1+] Main Battery 1, [T3+] Propulsion 1, [T5+] Main Battery 2, [T6+] Steering Gears 2, [T8+] Concealment System 1, [T9+] Gun Fire Control System 2

IJN Mods => [T1+] MB1, [T3+] SG1, [T5+] MB2, [T6+] SG2, [T8+] CS1, [T9+] Torpedo Tubes 3

VMF Mods => [T1+] MB1, [T3+] P1, [T5+] MB2, [T6+] SG2, [T8+] CS1, [T9+] Main Battery 3

 

No signal flags and type 1 camo only.

 

====================

 

T2: Clear Edge VMF + IJN. I really want to say it's even here. Umikaze is way ahead of both damage wise but I want to say that t's because no one at this tier knows how to use the rudder... but the IJN was way ahead of everyone else at this point of history as well. She has both DDs outclassed on everything but top speed.

 

T3: Slight edge to VMF + IJN. Would say even. Derzki doesn't seem to be doing too hot but still, Wakatake is pretty far ahead of them both. The guns at this tier don't do enough damage to deter the direct frontal assault. 

 

T4: Edge goes to VMF + IJN. Isokaze and Izyaslav are the two most feared ships in this tier. The IJN game at this point is more aggressive than the USN. Guns still don't hurt a lot at this tier while torps still hit all classes consistently. Clemson has better numbers than Izyaslav recently but the gap between both of them and Isokaze is ridiculous.

 

T5: Slight edge to USN. Want to say slight edge to Gnevny + Minekaze though since Nicolas isn't doing so hot right now. I'm not really afraid to engage a Nicolas in any ship. At this tier though, the Gnevny isn't likely to take a Nicolas out with it even if they focus on it first. The Minekaze might be faster but it's going to have a hell of a time trying to torp two Nicolas from the edge of concealment range. Sure isn't going to win a gun fight.

 

T6: Edge to USN. Want to say it's more even as well but it's a very special person who can knife fight in a Mutsuki. She's actually doing the best out of the three damage wise but that is because her torps are tuned for area denial. The Ognevoi has too much ground to make up for since her torps are tuned for super close quarters while her guns are more useful against USN for the range. More salt to the wound, the Farragut has over 2.7km of stealth fire advantage.

 

T7: Edge to VMF + IJN. Kiev is a borderline cruiser at this point so this works like a cruiser with an IJN DD as a spotter. Kiev also has a lot of speed and a slightly longer gun range so it can keep kiting the Mahan from the edge of its range. While the Mahan still has 2.1km of stealth fire on the Kiev, the Hatsuharu is within spotting distance and is fast enough to fire and move out of detection range.

 

T8: Don't mess with a Tashkent and a Fubuki who team up. Just don't. Don't mess with a pair of Bensons either. I can't pick a winner in this one. This is a tier where all three lines have finally stepped into maturity. In a full 12 vs. 12 game all 9 ships this tier on will still be effective for their teams in a tier 10 match.

 

T9: Clear edge to USN. Fletcher is a beast. AFT + GFCS2 gives her 17.5km max gun range with 8.4km of reach past her 9.1km concealment range after firing. Udaloi doesn't get GFCS2 so it has a terrible reach handicap at 14.5km. The Fletcher can pepper the Udaloi all day without retaliation. The thing to watch out for is if the Kagero is around. Without AFT, she still has .4km of stealth fire playroom against the Fletcher. Too bad the Fletcher is faster will catch her easily. Best chance for the VMF + IJN is for the Udaloi to stay far enough back and hope she's still close enough to intercept the Fletchers at close range before they catch the Kagero after she spots them. The Fletcher has better torpedo configuration for a knife fight though. Kagero kind of goes further down that stealth torp rabbit hole.

 

T10: Clear edge to VMF + IJN. There are just way too many tactics at their disposal. Two Gearing also beat a Khabaraosk and Shimakaze on gun DPS both in HE and in AP. Gearing also has the same concealment as Shimakaze and suddenly at this tier she's on par with Fubuki and Kagero as a torpedo boat. I want to say the edge goes to Gearing here for all the times I've had my [edited]handed to me in a one sided gun fight but I don't have the Shimakaze yet. 15 torpedoes per salvo which is a lot to deal with even for a Gearing so a Shimakaze doesn't really need to give her position away by returning gun fire. Khabarovsk may not have GFCS2 but she still has 15.6km with AFT vs. Gearing's 15.1km with AFT and GFSC2. The VMF has .5km of playroom to kite the Gearing if they are both visible to each other. If the Shimakaze is spotting, then the Khabarovsk is also firing from stealth range. The Gearing need to take out the Shimakaze first if they want a chance against the Khabarovsk. The thing is that Gearing is the slow ship here so the Shimakaze only has to troll them into firing at her so that the Gearing get the 2 second penalty and then sail out of her own concealment range.

 

 

Now... to stop picking on USNs. One on one, it's probably more even between the VMFs and the USNs especially Gearing vs. Khabarovsk. Gearing has better armor and more DPS. Khabarovsk has better AP DPS and more HP. Having the IJN there to spot makes a huge difference when one side has a reach advantage but the Gearing will probably come out on top against either one-on-one.

 

You Sir have been bookmarked!

[IPlayWithAppleTree]

Thanks people.