Selling Detonation flags is borderline Pay to Win

[IKU19]

 

While not specifically relating to WoWS NA since the marketing department we're stuck with does not sell flags seperately from everything else, it does relate to the global World of Warships economy and atmosphere.

 

You can get ten (10) Detonation flags if you get blown up, on average this will last you a couple of hours. Then you are at the mercy of RNG to not detonate you until the achievement rewards reset with the daily bonuses. There is no mechanic in the game that eliminates detonation, flags are the only way you can completely eliminate detonations from happening to you. Unlike citadel hits and torpedoes which can be completely avoided by several different strategies. All the other flags with the exception of the exp/credit flags can be accoplished with commander skills, good strategy, or consumables. The difference between experience, credit modifier and detonatoin flags is that the experience and credit flags are not directly a benefit to the game or your performance, whereas the detonation flags do give you a benefit to your performance which cannot be replicated as effecitvely with anything else. They explicitly eliminate one entire mechanic from the game. Selling these would give the player a huge leg up over someone that has already burned through his or her 10 daily detonation flags, only at the mercy of RNG they can overcome it. There is little to nothing they can do to prevent it from ever happening, even if the shell does not pen it still has a noticable chance of happening though while it's lower it is not eliminated entirely.

 

Remove detonation.

 

[Daigensui]

Or make sure it is very difficult to hit the magazine. It's just like ammo rack of WoT.

[atPrick__]

The mechanic also only targets one class in destroyers, and to a lesser degree the subclass of Light Cruisers. 

 

When I play my Isokaze I play it because it's a blast, but also to farm det flags....

[IKU19]

The mechanic also only targets one class in destroyers, and to a lesser degree the subclass of Light Cruisers. 

 

When I play my Isokaze I play it because it's a blast, but also to farm det flags....

 

Last week I saw a Yamato get detonated by a Kagerou's shells.

[atPrick__]

It happens but is rare, in 2500ish battles I've had it happen in a Kongo once and Ishizuchi 3 times.

[chriztahfah]

My Iowa got detonated by a single tier 7 tb (the only surviving member of its squad) from 65k health. I also got detonated by a single t6 DD torpedo (the only one I didn't manage to dodge) from full health. I've only ever been detonated by lone torpedoes and not by full spreads somehow. Apparently the moral of that story is either get hit by none of the torpedoes or get hit by all of them. I would also rather have it removed as a "haha your game is over" rng is not fun especially if you didn't even make a mistake (taking a single torpedo from any spread is surely not poor driving).

 

I've also heard that citadel hits can detonate ships but of the hundreds I have hit I have not gotten a single detonation. On the flip side I also haven't been detonated by a citadel hit, although I have had a Pensacola somehow reset my reload with a shell to the belt which has never happened to me before.

[Zyu]

I was actually going to make a thread about the sale of flags.

Are they PTW or ptw?

Some give bonuses to credits earned or xp etc. Harmless if sold.

These are not enhancements.

They merely accelerate/affect the speed at which one climbs the tech tree or overall income.

 

Whereas any signals that reduce % Detonation, Burning/Flooding duration, Speed, Heal Amount etc that are sold in a shop are certainly Pay to Win.

These ARE enhancements and directly affect your combat capability. Maybe not as much as premium ammunition would - but a heck of a lot more than someone not buying the signals.

 

Signal flags that do indeed affect your combat capabilities ought to only ever be earned.

(if they're anything other than the superficial(non combat) ones - that's a no-no in my opinion.)

 

This is from the EU premium shop:

Signal flags are not only a nice cosmetic addition to your fleet, but they also give you significant in-game bonuses. The first two flags give you a boost if you wish to progress through the game at a faster pace, while the others have a positive impact on your perfomance on the high seas. And for five sakes, there is a lot of them in this bundle!

 WG says it themselves: Pay to Win.

 

*Edit: I modify my prev statement above - one is not actually purchasing the flags directly(at least not on EU server) - they're part of a Bonus for buying Signal packs..

Look at it like an achievement: "Unlocked Premium Shop; Purchased a bundled Item~!~ "X,Y,Z "Special" Signal Flags received.""

 

 

[Lethal61]

While not specifically relating to WoWS NA since the marketing department we're stuck with does not sell flags seperately from everything else, it does relate to the global World of Warships economy and atmosphere.

 

You can get ten (10) Detonation flags if you get blown up, on average this will last you a couple of hours. Then you are at the mercy of RNG to not detonate you until the achievement rewards reset with the daily bonuses. There is no mechanic in the game that eliminates detonation, flags are the only way you can completely eliminate detonations from happening to you. Unlike citadel hits and torpedoes which can be completely avoided by several different strategies. All the other flags with the exception of the exp/credit flags can be accoplished with commander skills, good strategy, or consumables. The difference between experience, credit modifier and detonatoin flags is that the experience and credit flags are not directly a benefit to the game or your performance, whereas the detonation flags do give you a benefit to your performance which cannot be replicated as effecitvely with anything else. They explicitly eliminate one entire mechanic from the game. Selling these would give the player a huge leg up over someone that has already burned through his or her 10 daily detonation flags, only at the mercy of RNG they can overcome it. There is little to nothing they can do to prevent it from ever happening, even if the shell does not pen it still has a noticable chance of happening though while it's lower it is not eliminated entirely.

 

Remove detonation.

 

NO.

[HellfireCity]

[Skpstr]

 

Last week I saw a Yamato get detonated by a Kagerou's shells.

 

I saw a man struck by lightning. Golf clubs are OP.

[BlazerSparta]

A relevant video:

 

 

 

There are two big relevant points here.

 

1) If you want a mechanic to be randomly really awesome, you need to balance it with the normal outcome of using the mechanic to be really crappy.

 

2) Good randomness isn't completely game changing. A random outcome that can win or lose a game isn't fun for anyone on the receiving end.

 

You can see examples of point 1 in the game. If RNG isn't in your favour while shooting AP, you get weak overpens. Get good RNG, and you get normal pens and citadels. on top of that, aiming skill can mitigate the effect of RNG, increasing your chance of getting cit pens vs overpens.

 

As for how point 1 relates to detonations..... well, it doesn't. Detonations result from damage to certain undocumented parts of the ship. Either way, the damage is already dealt. There's no downside to dealing that damage. On top of that, detonations don't happen with things that deal tiny amounts of damage (typically). It's not like if you want detonation chance, you HAVE to use 120mm destroyer guns that don't do any damage other than detonations. You can get a detonation with 18" AP just as easily as you can with 120mm HE. All detonations do is randomly make a powerful mechanic (dealing lots of damage) more powerful (lots of damage to an instakill)

 

Point 2 is where WoWS suffers. I will admit, BB alpha is a bit of a problem here as well. As well as close range torpedo spreads, and point blank TB drops. Being 1 shot is no fun. (Now that I think about it, the only ships in the game that have no way of 1 shotting a BB are the high tier USN CAs).

 

The biggest difference, however, between those other mechanics are that those mechanics all require some skill on the part of the player, and detonations require......RNG to be in your favour.

 

Detonations are a mechanic that can single-handedly win or lose a match, and there's not much a player can do to cause or prevent it.

[IKU19]

A relevant video:

 

 

 

There are two big relevant points here.

 

1) If you want a mechanic to be randomly really awesome, you need to balance it with the normal outcome of using the mechanic to be really crappy.

 

2) Good randomness isn't completely game changing. A random outcome that can win or lose a game isn't fun for anyone on the receiving end.

 

You can see examples of point 1 in the game. If RNG isn't in your favour while shooting AP, you get weak overpens. Get good RNG, and you get normal pens and citadels. on top of that, aiming skill can mitigate the effect of RNG, increasing your chance of getting cit pens vs overpens.

 

As for how point 1 relates to detonations..... well, it doesn't. Detonations result from damage to certain undocumented parts of the ship. Either way, the damage is already dealt. There's no downside to dealing that damage. On top of that, detonations don't happen with things that deal tiny amounts of damage (typically). It's not like if you want detonation chance, you HAVE to use 120mm destroyer guns that don't do any damage other than detonations. You can get a detonation with 18" AP just as easily as you can with 120mm HE. All detonations do is randomly make a powerful mechanic (dealing lots of damage) more powerful (lots of damage to an instakill)

 

Point 2 is where WoWS suffers. I will admit, BB alpha is a bit of a problem here as well. As well as close range torpedo spreads, and point blank TB drops. Being 1 shot is no fun. (Now that I think about it, the only ships in the game that have no way of 1 shotting a BB are the high tier USN CAs).

 

The biggest difference, however, between those other mechanics are that those mechanics all require some skill on the part of the player, and detonations require......RNG to be in your favour.

 

Detonations are a mechanic that can single-handedly win or lose a match, and there's not much a player can do to cause or prevent it.

 

The problem isn't that detonation is dependent on RNG, that itself is fine

 

It's that the only way to completely be void of it is by having a flag which in some regions is sold.

 

Which would make your last sentence actually read "Detonations are a mechanic that can single-handedly win or lose a match, and the only way of preventing it is by buying flags or getting detonated once (for ten battles, then you can only buy flags)."  That's the issue with it, at a certain point the only way to overcome detonation is to spend money.

[HellfireCity]

You can still die by torps and a constant volley of gunfire.

 

You're not invincible with detonation flags.

 

Thus it's not P2W.

[IKU19]

You can still die by torps and a constant volley of gunfire.

 

You're not invincible with detonation flags.

 

Thus it's not P2W.

 

I find that there's a significant difference between taking max HP damage from one shell compared to at most around 30k

 

It takes long to die from sveral torpedoes or gunfire, and you can entirely dodge and avoid them, including citadels.

 

Only way to completely avoid detonations is to either not get hit which isn't a solution or the flags, which is for the free consumer limited to 10 a day (which makes this pay to win) since one mechanic can not be avoided without spending money at that point.

[HellfireCity]

 

I find that there's a significant difference between taking max HP damage from one shell compared to at most around 30k

 

It takes long to die from sveral torpedoes or gunfire, and you can entirely dodge and avoid them, including citadels.

 

Only way to completely avoid detonations is to either not get hit which isn't a solution or the flags, which is for the free consumer limited to 10 a day (which makes this pay to win) since one mechanic can not be avoided without spending money at that point.

 

The chance of dying via detonation is so low. You die 95% of the time via gunfire which causes fires and citadel pens. That also includes torp damage and flooding.

 

Detonation is such a small and minor percentage of deaths.

 

Paying to win implies you can only earn it by paying and it guarantees you'll win. That's why it's called paid to win. You just stated that you can get 10 once a day. There's also the option to pay for them. Which mean it does not fit the definition of paid to win. I'd like to add onto that running detonation flags also doesn't mean you'll win any match in anyway. It just nullifies a minor way of dying which isn't something that common in the first place.

 

 

 

 

[IKU19]

Paying to win implies you can only earn it by paying and it guarantees you'll win. That's why it's called paid to win. You just stated that you can get 10 once a day. There's also the option to pay for them. Which mean it does not fit the definition of paid to win. I'd like to add onto that running detonation flags also doesn't mean you'll win any match in anyway. It just nullifies a minor way of dying which isn't something that common in the first place.

 

Inaccurate; P2W is paying for an advantage that cannot be otherwise avoided or obtained.

 

A bad player with a great P2W build will still lose, you're paying for an advantage which raises your odds in an aspect other things cannot do. Every single signal short of the experience and credit flags are mitigated by another aspect of the game, detonation isn't.

[suleiman71]

 

Inaccurate; P2W is paying for an advantage that cannot be otherwise avoided or obtained.

 

A crapplayer with a great P2W build will still lose, you're paying for an advantage which raises your odds in an aspect other things cannot do. Every single signal short of the experience and credit flags are mitigated by another aspect of the game, detonation isn't.

 

It's still not P2W. Why? Because you can EARN the flags.

[HellfireCity]

 

Inaccurate; P2W is paying for an advantage that cannot be otherwise avoided or obtained.

 

Nope. That is not the correct definition.

 

P2W is defined by giving a paid player a strategic advantage which otherwise a free player cannot have. You can earn detonation flags in normal play. If you couldn't and could only pay for it then it becomes P2W.

 

 

 

 

[Montana_Prussian]

 

It's still not P2W. Why? Because you can EARN the flags.

 

This here is it^^^^^^

[IKU19]

 

It's still not P2W. Why? Because you can EARN the flags.

 

In limited quantity, after those ten you cannot obtain them further for the rest of the day, which is why I explicitly stated that it's borderline pay to win.

[HellfireCity]

 

In limited quantity, after those ten you cannot obtain them further for the rest of the day, which is why I explicitly stated that it's borderline pay to win.

 

You can still earn them every 24 hours, right?

 

You really need to learn what pay to win actually is.

[IKU19]

 

You can still earn them every 24 hours, right?

 

You really need to learn what pay to win actually is.

 

Given the scenareo both players have recieved their detonation achievement with their ten flags, they both play for the 11th match. One of the persons bought additional detonation flags, the other did not.

 

The player that did not buy the flags got hit in the face with small odd RNG and lost that battle despite having excellent performance and evasion because he didn't have the flags, while it's not known if the RNG would've punished the other player as it did with the player that didn't spend money it's still an issue.

 

The issue therein lies that the person that didn't bought the flags only option was to spend money.

[suleiman71]

 

In limited quantity, after those ten you cannot obtain them further for the rest of the day, which is why I explicitly stated that it's borderline pay to win.

 

It's still not P2W. Stop giving excuses. 

[suleiman71]

 

Given the scenareo both players have recieved their detonation achievement with their ten flags, they both play for the 11th match. One of the persons bought additional detonation flags, the other did not.

 

The player that did not buy the flags got hit in the face with small odd RNG and lost that battle despite having excellent performance and evasion because he didn't have the flags, while it's not known if the RNG would've punished the other player as it did with the player that didn't spend money it's still an issue.

 

It's not an issue when most people have detonation rates of 0.5-1%

[HellfireCity]

 

Given the scenareo both players have recieved their detonation achievement with their ten flags, they both play for the 11th match. One of the persons bought additional detonation flags, the other did not.

 

The player that did not buy the flags got hit in the face with small odd RNG and lost that battle despite having excellent performance and evasion because he didn't have the flags, while it's not known if the RNG would've punished the other player as it did with the player that didn't spend money it's still an issue.

 

That still isn't pay to win.

 

Even with this hypothetical scenario where detonations are 99% of the game.