Why remove stealth fire from RU DD's?

[unionlloyd]

So with the pre-release nerfs on the RU DD's they all basically lost the ability to stealth fire (or at best have an extremely tight margin to play in). This seems particularly harsh as it seemed to be what the RU's had going for them. 

At a basic level it comes down to fun game mechanics. Is it a good one to have an ability to do something to another player without them being able to respond. Arguably no, but many of the current classes have exactly that ability. 

IJN and USN DD's both have the potential to very comfortably stealth fire their guns as well as having the abilty to launch torps without being spotted.

Some of the cruisers can very comfortably stealth fire. Both the Zao and Ibuki can be used very well for this. 

BB's can fire from outside the range of anything beyond other BB's (even if they should get in and brawl)

And then their are CV's, who currently can reach out with no risk to themselves and remove ships.

 

With the other ships the argument is that teamwork and other ships must be leveraged to overcome these. DD's scouting, CV plane scouting, other BB's focussing the ones at range. So why did they come down so harshly on the RU DD's? They were stated to be extremely fast but non stealthy ships with good guns. Why not let them have the long range support firing niche?

[Sir_Robert_Whitney]

"They were stated to be extremely fast but non stealthy ships with good guns."

 

Answered your own question. That is their niche.

 

I should qualify this statement with the fact that I don't play RU DDs

[Strike_Witch_Tomoko]

....pre-release?

there wasn't a nerf to them pre-release....

 

there was some buffs to german cruisers but RU DDs weren't touched.

 

[byronicasian]

....pre-release?

there wasn't a nerf to them pre-release....

 

there was some buffs to german cruisers but RU DDs weren't touched.

 

 

RU DDs T5-T10 had several nerfs with the release patch. Check out Seekers' "real patch notes". The data mine shows that the detection debuff while firing is now 5.9 vs the old 3.9 for the Grevny to Khabarovsk. 

[crazyjoe1337]

....pre-release?

there wasn't a nerf to them pre-release....

 

there was some buffs to german cruisers but RU DDs weren't touched.

 

 

According to the actual notes Seeker put up, their ability to stealth fire was nerfed heavily.

[unionlloyd]

RU DD's were touched very hard! Most of them had 1km added to their detection range. The real killer was that the addition to detection range while firing was changed from a reasonable 3.9km to an outrageous 5.9km. That is the same value as the BB's get while firing 18 inch guns, and this is from 130mm guns. Beyond that, the tier 9 and 10 had the module for increased gun range removed as an option entirely. Meaning that the gearing and fletcher have better range than the RU colleagues, even if they can't hit with their slow shell speed. 

 

Also tier 9 and 10 had their HE shells moved from 1900 a shell down to 1600 a shell. A very high velocity 130mm shell is doing less damage than the 127's on the IJN and USN. 

 

All of this is from the seekers thread in which he deep dived on the ships data on the test server vs the released version. 

 http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/54595-the-real-0503-patchnotes/#topmost

[Strike_Witch_Tomoko]

huh.

and yet people still say the high tier RU DDs are OP....

 

[unionlloyd]

I have the Kiev and the Tashkent. The Kiev is a lot of fun since it has good guns and can evade well enough to stay alive. The Tashkent is much worse at evading and has reduced range. I consider it a straight downgrade from the Kiev. 

 

Talking to folks in the Udalois and Khaba-whatevers they all seem to be having a rough time of it. Looking at what limited statistics are available, the average damage of the high tier RU is lagging behind. The Kiev is leading at tier 7. At tier 8 the Tashkent and Benson are tied but both lagging behind the Fubuki. Tier 9 and 10 the RU DD's are lagging WAAAY behind the other nations. And a thing to keep in mind with the RU is that they are about consistent damage each game. They really have a hard time reaching the very high numbers. There are only so many fires you can set. I was pretty pleased with each game I break 100K in Kiev. However the Kagero and Shimakaze both have reached well into 200K territory. 

[crazyjoe1337]

RU DD's were touched very hard! Most of them had 1km added to their detection range. The real killer was that the addition to detection range while firing was changed from a reasonable 3.9km to an outrageous 5.9km. That is the same value as the BB's get while firing 18 inch guns, and this is from 130mm guns. That's half the value of BB guns firing. They were changed because 4-5km stealth fire range was too high.

 

Beyond that, the tier 9 and 10 had the module for increased gun range removed as an option entirely. Meaning that the gearing and fletcher have better range than the RU colleagues, even if they can't hit with their slow shell speed. 

No it doesn't. The tier 10 RU DD still outranges Gearing. Don't exaggerate. The tier 9 DD has less than 1km difference in range, but it's still irrelevant because with the necessary skills and upgrades, you have a comfortable stealth fire range with FAR superior shell arc. 

 

Also tier 9 and 10 had their HE shells moved from 1900 a shell down to 1600 a shell. A very high velocity 130mm shell is doing less damage than the 127's on the IJN and USN. 

This was probably just done for balance. The tier 9 has as many guns as Gearing that perform better at a longer range, coupled with a higher fire chance. The tier 10 has 8(!) guns. It's effectively a cruiser.

 

All of this is from the seekers thread in which he deep dived on the ships data on the test server vs the released version. 

 http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/54595-the-real-0503-patchnotes/#topmost

 

 

[unionlloyd]

Sorry, you're right on the Gearing. It has the same as the Khabarovsk (15.4 vs 15.6). The fletcher is the weird outlier at 18km range. These take into account all applicable skills and modules. And they should since anyone running these ships will have both the range skill and modules available. And the Gearing also has the rate of fire to send more shells downrange than the Khabarovsk. Remember, The USN has an edge in Torpedoes and can still stealth fire if they want. Currently the Khabarovsk is 10K damage per game behind the Gearing and 20K behind the Shima. It is a small sample set. But still. 

[HMSPancake]

Kekekekekeke, and you all thought easymode gaming going up this line, i hope you will suffer much,  enjoy the frustration. 

[unionlloyd]

HMSpancake, not expecting easy mode. But are expecting some level of balance. The top damage per game ships are the midway (130K), Hakury (102K), Ymato (95K), Essex (95K), Taiho (82K), and Montana (80K). The top performing RU DDs are the Khabarovsk and Kiev pulling in around 40K. That is rough.

 

It would be one thing if they were matching experience per game and fighting it out with other DD's, but they are doing extremely poorly here with the Tashkent being 2nd to last in tier, and Khabarovsk and Udaloi being last in the tier. 

[crazyjoe1337]

Sorry, you're right on the Gearing. It has the same as the Khabarovsk (15.4 vs 15.6). The fletcher is the weird outlier at 18km range. These take into account all applicable skills and modules. And they should since anyone running these ships will have both the range skill and modules available. And the Gearing also has the rate of fire to send more shells downrange than the Khabarovsk. Remember, The USN has an edge in Torpedoes and can still stealth fire if they want. Currently the Khabarovsk is 10K damage per game behind the Gearing and 20K behind the Shima. It is a small sample set. But still. 

 

That's probably why RU DDs don't have high average damage right now. Firstly, a lot of players are probably still going through the lower tiers. Only a handful of players have the tier 7+, as far as I know. Secondly, the torpedoes. A destroyer's primary function is exactly that. To destroy. It's difficult to do that when you have to use your (small caliber) guns and risk revealing yourself every time you fire. Torpedoes are much safer, even if less reliable. They also do far more damage. 

 

The way WG has implemented the RU DDs means you're playing as a small support cruiser, not a primary source of damage nor a devastating source due to bad torpedoes. Basically, you punish lone BBs, harass CL/CAs, can easily win knife fights with other DDs, and can potentially hunt down CVs with your incredibly high speed at mid-high tiers. At the moment, IJN are far more torpedo focused and USN are more of a hybrid at high tiers. I expect WG will continue with this "national peculiarity" stuff until all lines are added. KM DDs might be more traditional in the sense that DDs should be, if I had to guess. At least, that's what I'm hoping, but those are probably a long way off. I digress. Point is, the way they are, you're not going to see incredibly high damage out of them because of the way they have to be played. They have a very high skill floor to start with and then a very high skill ceiling as well. They're not something you can play casually and do well in.

 

Also bear in mind what you're comparing average damage with. The top tier carriers are (were? I don't know if the nerf occurred yet) OP. The top tier battleships are massive brutes that can deal out as much damage as they can take. etc. Again though, only a few people probably have those top tier RU DDs. The numbers will be high/low/skewed until a greater number of people get them and the average is actually more meaningful due to sample size.

[redblurr]

 

RU DDs T5-T10 had several nerfs with the release patch. Check out Seekers' "real patch notes". The data mine shows that the detection debuff while firing is now 5.9 vs the old 3.9 for the Grevny to Khabarovsk. 

 

Please do not bring up pre-release/"real patch notes" in discussions involving super testers. We already know what is "real" and what is not.

 

RU DD's perform fine in the role envisioned for them by WG. In fact, some of the RU DD's are the Best DD, if not Best DD/CL, for their tier currently.

...and by that I mean in the hands of players who know what they are doing, not overall statistics.

[HMSPancake]

HMSpancake, not expecting easy mode. But are expecting some level of balance. The top damage per game ships are the midway (130K), Hakury (102K), Ymato (95K), Essex (95K), Taiho (82K), and Montana (80K). The top performing RU DDs are the Khabarovsk and Kiev pulling in around 40K. That is rough.

 

It would be one thing if they were matching experience per game and fighting it out with other DD's, but they are doing extremely poorly here with the Tashkent being 2nd to last in tier, and Khabarovsk and Udaloi being last in the tier. 

I hope you do knowthat they do this on purpose so in the near future they can overly buff it, cause then they have the data to make it legite to buff it,  you know that WG only looks at the data they gather from ships played.

Have some patience pls

[10T0nHammer]

huh.

and yet people still say the high tier RU DDs are OP....

 

Well nerfed doesn't mean removed. They still get a pretty big 2-3 km stealth window to fire from and can stay within that range easily thanks to their speed. OP? Not really, strongest line of high tier DDs? Yep.

[JAKERTANKING]

does this kill all the "russian bias" [edited]yet?

 

[unionlloyd]

I hope you do knowthat they do this on purpose so in the near future they can overly buff it, cause then they have the data to make it legite to buff it,  you know that WG only looks at the data they gather from ships played.

Have some patience pls

 

That's the weirdest thing. WG has a very long history of launching new lines that are overpowered and excellent. This encourages lots of people to blow lots of currency on free XP to rush up to the new flavor of the month. After a few months they then nerf them down to be reasonable with other lines. This one seems to be an odd one of having supertesters and some streamers being shown a very interesting line of ships, which then seem to have been released with less capability. 

 

Not saying I like the practice of launching new lines that outperform their counterparts, but I would understand that. Preemptive balancing is a new one to me. 

[Strike_Witch_Tomoko]

does this kill all the "russian bias" [edited]yet?

 

na

our premium shop is russian biased

 

cause the RU server gets stuff without bundles

we get forced with bundles

[Spyde]

huh.

and yet people still say the high tier RU DDs are OP....

 

 

They got nerfed alot actually

[Takeda992]

Because their stealth fire was OP? Really you like being shot at by an invisible ship with the best DD guns in the game in all categories including damage, range, shell velocity, RoF, accuracy and fire chance and also being the fastest and most resilient destroyers in the game?

 

IJN can fire torps from stealth but they are very easy to dodge. USN DDs can fire guns from stealtj but the shells are so slow even BBs can dodge them. Soviet DDs had no weakness to their stealth fire and that was tuned down a bit.

[Strike_Witch_Tomoko]

 

They got nerfed alot actually

 

i'm not refering to pre release. i'm refering to psot release. seeing alot of people complain they OP.

 

which to me means  they fine (cause BBabies cry about everything....even albamy.....)

[unionlloyd]

Could be compete confirmation bias on my part, but I don't think I have seen much in the world of complaints about them being OP since the release. Sample size of actually seeing the high tier DD's is still tiny. After the Kiev, I really haven't seen many of them make a huge contribution to the team. 

[Fog_Cruiser_Chikuma]

disappointed severely with the tier 9 RU DD.

 

they're just low HP cruisers with smaller guns

 

spotted the second you shoot, instant focused, because weak DD global taunt, very slow torps for the range of them, fire doesnt seem to be at the right %age, 60+hits on a BB should cause at least 1 fire

[sushimaster]

WG overnerfed it, range, gun dmg, fire's chance, stealth window, concealment. 2 nerfs would be enough, instead, they went overboard and did all 5. We was going to get a DD line that might perform on par with other ship, now, beside the Kiev, all we get is just another mediocre DD line.