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userz123

They need to rework Dog fighting expert perk.

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Ok so i never figure out why WG decide to give slower flying plane a fighting power boost over faster fighter. I remember in war thunder the faster plane usually have the upper hand in dog fighting. IT doesn't make any dam sense at all that faster plane will always lose out against slower flying one, because u know U ARE FASTER???

 

It's like saying biplane have advantage over Jets, because biplane fly slower so naturally the guy driving slower plane will trump over faster plane and be an expert at dog fighting.

 

This is especially annoying because Almost all Japanese fighter fly faster than American and making this perk useless 90% of the time. The American already have fighter advantage over Japanese by having more plane in 1 squad and they do MORE DPM already with their machine gun the American fighter also have more health over the Japanese. They need to rework how dog fighting expert work

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well, if wt makes that a faster plane wins dog fighting they are imo wrong because... you know it's slower planes (which are usually more maneuvrable) win dog fighting

fast planes win by boom-zoom

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I worked at a Golf resort in Florida outside of Baseball City back in the early 90s and there were these 2 pilots who had WW2 planes that used to dogfight over the resort. One had a P-51 Mustang and the other had a P-80 Shooting star. Yes, the Jet was faster than the Mustang but the Mustang had no trouble at all getting on the P-80's six and staying there. Speed does not automatically give one plane a advantage over a slower, more maneuverable aircraft.

 

 

Off the topic but also pretty cool. While I was in Florida, I also saw a P-38 Lightning taking off from the Orlando(Or maybe it was Kissimmee) airport that had it's propeller engines replaced with jet engines.

Edited by Samalander

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well, if wt makes that a faster plane wins dog fighting they are imo wrong because... you know it's slower planes (which are usually more maneuvrable) win dog fighting

fast planes win by boom-zoom

No if u played war thunder u will know japanese fighter can turn faster than most american plane. Slower plane aren't more maneuverable, just take the Japanese zero for example historically was lighter weight so they actually more maneuverable and faster than american fighter. Japanese fighter were among the best at dog fighting, during the earlier war period. The only reason japan was not so great at dog fighting later in the war was because japan lost most of  its skilled pilots.

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zero is 530km/h, hellcat is 611km/h, kittyhawk is 580km/h

 

tbh also rate of climb matters

 

anyway generally afaik the most maneuverable machines were not the fastest but rather the slower ones... also biplanes are very maneuverable

 

also afaik americans preferred not to dogfight

Edited by bad_arcade_kitty

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Normally Speed is the determining factor because you control the engagement if the delta is +15-20kts or greater due to the limited range of accurate gunfire the plane with the speed can engage and break away at will. Those with a higher altitude can do the same but if all things are equal than it comes down to pilot skill and plane maneuverability and the altitude advantage is only held for the beginning of the fight but does not always determine it's ending, if you ever get a chance it might be on YouTube now there was a series I believe on History channel about ultimate dogfights from WW2, Korea, and Vietnam. Very insightful :)

 

Edited by Vudee

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I don't care if slower planes can turn better in real life. I don't like the dogfighting perk as it is now.

 

I think it should boost dogfighting skill, period. Or, replace it completely with something else. The way it is now, it makes the already frustratingly overpowered USN fighters even more silly, and it gives IJN fighters NOTHING.


 

I think the entire captain's skilltree needs reworked.

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I worked at a Golf resort in Florida outside of Baseball City back in the early 90s and there were these 2 pilots who had WW2 planes that used to dogfight over the resort. One had a P-51 Mustang and the other had a P-80 Shooting star. Yes, the Jet was faster than the Mustang but the Mustang had no trouble at all getting on the P-80's six and staying there. Speed does not automatically give one plane a advantage over a slower, more maneuverable aircraft.

 

 

Off the topic but also pretty cool. While I was in Florida, I also saw a P-38 Lightning taking off from the Orlando(Or maybe it was Kissimmee) airport that had it's propeller engines replaced with jet engines.

 

Uhh, exactly how did they mange this without losing their pilots license?  FAA does not allow this sort of thing outside of regulated airshows?

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No if u played war thunder u will know japanese fighter can turn faster than most american plane. Slower plane aren't more maneuverable, just take the Japanese zero for example historically was lighter weight so they actually more maneuverable and faster than american fighter. Japanese fighter were among the best at dog fighting, during the earlier war period. The only reason japan was not so great at dog fighting later in the war was because japan lost most of  its skilled pilots.

 

This is correct - it wasn't until the USN put out hellcats and Corsairs that we really had better/equivalent planes in the air. The Zero was an excellent fighter. There are a lot of factors that influence dog fighting. Skills of the pilots are obviously the most important. Service and resources are another huge factor. Zeros didn't run very good without fuel or oil or pilots for that mater.

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Agreed, my issue with it is that for most of the line it is only really usable for the US and they already have an advantage in numbers so boosting them further is unnecessary imo. When you were not guaranteed to face an equal tier cv it made a bit more sense but now I think it needs a look at, maybe have it reduce ammo expenditure?

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I don't care if slower planes can turn better in real life. I don't like the dogfighting perk as it is now.

 

I think it should boost dogfighting skill, period. Or, replace it completely with something else. The way it is now, it makes the already frustratingly overpowered USN fighters even more silly, and it gives IJN fighters NOTHING.

 

 

I think the entire captain's skilltree needs reworked.

 

Yeah slower plane don't always turn better in real life. The dog fighting expert skill doesn't make any sense at all.
Edited by userz123

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Staying focused on the gameplay, it does make little sense to offer a perk that only benefits the side who already has the more effective fighter squadrons.  They are planning to re-work captain skills pretty soon, however, so we'll have to see what they have in store.

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well, if wt makes that a faster plane wins dog fighting they are imo wrong because... you know it's slower planes (which are usually more maneuvrable) win dog fighting

fast planes win by boom-zoom

I think this is the first time I've ever agreed with you but you are correct.     For anyone else that is curious look up Phantoms vs MiGs in Vietnam.    

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This is correct - it wasn't until the USN put out hellcats and Corsairs that we really had better/equivalent planes in the air. The Zero was an excellent fighter. There are a lot of factors that influence dog fighting. Skills of the pilots are obviously the most important. Service and resources are another huge factor. Zeros didn't run very good without fuel or oil or pilots for that mater.

 

This is true, but once US pilots developed better tactics, even Wildcats were shooting down more Zeroes than vice versa. The Hellcat & Corsair just put the nails in the coffin. The tactics first perfected in the Wildcat made dogfighting obsolete, then the Hellcat made the Zero obsolete.

 

 

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I thought that perk benefits IJN... Don't the SLOWER fighters get the boost?

 

Thinking t10 here

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I thought that perk benefits IJN... Don't the SLOWER fighters get the boost?

 

Thinking t10 here

Look at the planes across the tiers. USN fighters tend to be slower than their IJN counterparts of same tier.

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The only reason japan was not so great at dog fighting later in the war was because japan lost most of  its skilled pilots.

 

And yet they lost a lot of those skilled pilots to green pilots in inferior aircraft because while the Americans revamped their air combat tactics within a few months of the outbreak of the war, the Japanese were using the same tactics as they did over China 10 years previously, and never did change. 

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Korea War, Vietnam War.

 

f4's didn't even have guns early in the war. Most air to air kills was missiles only. Migs were always better dog fighters.

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Vietnam War.

 

I'm going to say that when you introduce a hot new fighter without guns, you prefer not to dogfight.

 

Also, dogfighting has 2 meanings. Some take it to mean any fight between 2 planes, (at close range if using missiles) and some take it to mean turnfighting, as opposed to BnZ.

 

Shooting missiles from 5km+ is neither of those.

 

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I'm going to say that when you introduce a hot new fighter without guns, you prefer not to dogfight.

 

Also, dogfighting has 2 meanings. Some take it to mean any fight between 2 planes, (at close range if using missiles) and some take it to mean turnfighting, as opposed to BnZ.

 

Shooting missiles from 5km+ is neither of those.

 

I think it means turn fighting. Like you said launching missiles at max range is not dog fighting.

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How it works in real life is irrelevant. This perk exists for gameplay reasons.

 

Its purpose was to give lower tier CV's a fighting chance against higher tier ones. CV matchmaker has been changed to make this less of a problem, but it still helps stock CV's against upgraded enemy fighters. I actually agree that it should be reworked, but not for realism's sake; it's always seemed strange to me that they measure it by speed instead of aircraft tier, and that it is completely useless to certain CV's (eg, Midway - Midway's balance is a separate issue).

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How it works in real life is irrelevant. This perk exists for gameplay reasons.

 

Its purpose was to give lower tier CV's a fighting chance against higher tier ones. CV matchmaker has been changed to make this less of a problem, but it still helps stock CV's against upgraded enemy fighters. I actually agree that it should be reworked, but not for realism's sake; it's always seemed strange to me that they measure it by speed instead of aircraft tier, and that it is completely useless to certain CV's (eg, Midway - Midway's balance is a separate issue).

it doesn't help Stock cv against upgraded CV because when u get a new ship u have to 'retrain" ur captain first which make the skill useless by the time u completed ur retraining with the capting u already have enough to unlock better fighters. It also doesn't help at all given that USN fighters are slower across the tier thus giving the already strong USN fighter a even stronger boost in fighting power. dog fighting expert should help the one with weaker plane not making the stronger plane even more strong.

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And yet they lost a lot of those skilled pilots to green pilots in inferior aircraft because while the Americans revamped their air combat tactics within a few months of the outbreak of the war, the Japanese were using the same tactics as they did over China 10 years previously, and never did change. 

 

Can you explain these tactics? 

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it doesn't help Stock cv against upgraded CV because when u get a new ship u have to 'retrain" ur captain first which make the skill useless by the time u completed ur retraining with the capting u already have enough to unlock better fighters. It also doesn't help at all given that USN fighters are slower across the tier thus giving the already strong USN fighter a even stronger boost in fighting power. dog fighting expert should help the one with weaker plane not making the stronger plane even more strong.

Is being fast not an advantage...like...you don't have to engage the superior fighter and can easily draw them into unfavorable situations because you are faster?

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