IJN Fighter Frustration

[Gaugesix49]

Not to be a cry baby, but i'm honestly looking for advice. Playing my Zuiho vs Bogues and Langleys (typically) and im having the hardest time with my fighters. I understand IJN fighters aren't meant to beat US fighters head on, i understand that. I'm not complaining about that, but my problem is that i'll lose a squad of fighters (with air groups 1 AND 2 upgrades) to the tail gunners of US dive/torpedo bombers. Yes, i mean completely lose the squad while only managing to kill 2-3 of the bombers. Either that, or they run out of ammo. Ive tried this more than one time so before you say "dont fight over enemy AA" or something among those lines, understand that i realize that. I try to avoid that when possible anyway. Why are the IJN fighters so laughably useless and what can i do as a CV player to adapt to this? The fighter's are literally cannon fodder, god forbid i try to engage US fighters over say a friendly cleveland or two, they still don't last more than 7 seconds. Can someone lend me advice? How can i make use of these seemingly useless fighters?

[TurboT]

Not to be a cry baby, but i'm honestly looking for advice. Playing my Zuiho vs Bogues and Langleys (typically) and im having the hardest time with my fighters. I understand IJN fighters aren't meant to beat US fighters head on, i understand that. I'm not complaining about that, but my problem is that i'll lose a squad of fighters (with air groups 1 AND 2 upgrades) to the tail gunners of US dive/torpedo bombers. Yes, i mean completely lose the squad while only managing to kill 2-3 of the bombers. Either that, or they run out of ammo. Ive tried this more than one time so before you say "dont fight over enemy AA" or something among those lines, understand that i realize that. I try to avoid that when possible anyway. Why are the IJN fighters so laughably useless and what can i do as a CV player to adapt to this? The fighter's are literally cannon fodder, god forbid i try to engage US fighters over say a friendly cleveland or two, they still don't last more than 7 seconds. Can someone lend me advice? How can i make use of these seemingly useless fighters?

 

Sorry to hear that problem exists at the lower tiers as well.  I'm really not sure why the change was made here.   Most of the complaints around CVs were they ANTI SHIP squads were doing too much damage, so their answer seemed to be improve ANTI SHIP SQUADS defenses to fighters.  It doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

I've been bringing this to the forums for the past couple weeks because my Hakuryu fighters are having the same problem against Essex/Midway TB/DB squads, in that they are running out of ammo and getting shot down from anti ship planes, and losing more per squad then they are taking down.  Its creating a power imbalance at the top of the tree because the midway especially, is wrecking things with unstoppable planes even by fighters.

 

I'm going to go on faith here, and hoping that WG is looking at their data in this regard and planning yet MORE changes to airplane dynamics.

 

[Gaugesix49]

"in that they are running out of ammo and getting shot down from anti ship planes, and losing more per squad then they are taking down.  Its creating a power imbalance at the top of the tree because the midway especially, is wrecking things with unstoppable planes even by fighters."

 

 

 

THIS! This is my exact problem. I really hope that WG takes notice, because its extremely hard to play the IJN cv at the moment. Im relieved to know its not just me!

 

[bad_arcade_kitty]

http://warshipstats.com/analytics/  

proves that low-mid tier japanese cv are way better than american ones

 

grr, the site doesn't use 'get' so i cannot give you a properly arranged list, here is a list of them arranged by winrate

 

Midway 

Zuiho (your zuiho, 55.1%)

Hakuryu 

Hiryu 

Hosho 

Ryujo 

Essex 

Taiho 

Shokaku 

Langley (langley which you complain of, first one below 50%, 47.6%) 

Independence 

Ranger 

Bogue (bogue which you complain of, 46.4%)

Lexington

 

it seems it's not japenese cvs who should complain and demand a buff but american ones

[DopamineCircuit]

http://warshipstats.com/analytics/  

proves that low-mid tier japanese cv are way better than american ones

 

grr, the site doesn't use 'get' so i cannot give you a properly arranged list, here is a list of them arranged by winrate

 

Midway 

Zuiho (your zuiho, 55.1%)

Hakuryu 

Hiryu 

Hosho 

Ryujo 

Essex 

Taiho 

Shokaku 

Langley (langley which you complain of, first one below 50%, 47.6%) 

Independence 

Ranger 

Bogue (bogue which you complain of, 46.4%)

Lexington

 

it seems it's not japenese cvs who should complain and demand a buff but american ones

 

 

That's not...accurate at all.  Not the data, the data's good.  But NOWHERE CLOSE to enough data to come to valid conclusion.  You are using incomplete data to postulate conjecture.  

 

Allow me to elaborate:

Please tell me; how many of those Zuiho's wins were while paired with teammate in an american carrier?  Oh, you can't.  No data.

Please tell me; what percentage of Zuiho's included in the WinRate% did not survive the battle while opposing carrier did?  Oh, you can't.  No data.

Please tell me; what percentage of those Zuiho wins were contained a Zuiho on the opposite team?  Oh, you can't.  No data.

 

I believe what you are doing is detrimental to the growth of this game and toxic to any other players who don't know any better.  If you wish to continue deceiving your fellow players with your unfounded claims and flawed logic then I'll definitely be your biggest fan on this forum.

 

=]

[misanthrope0]

There seems only two ways to dea with it and I have been playing the Jap CV's lately and also been shutdown. Either be patient and see where they are placing thier figher then look for targets of oportunity on the other side of the map to make it harder for them to engage or sacrifice your fighters early by interecption of the enemy getting off a max of two good strikes at BB's early then epect to be shutdown after that.  At T6 you spec fighters 3/1/1 and use one to escort your TB/DB and use the othetr two to gang up on one fighter squadron at a time. Or aplay an air game exclusively to shutdown thier air support then use your limited strike ability late in the game.

[Tuesdaysgone]

Players moaned about torp' planes, and this is what we have, if you play cv, better bring fighters, hope for decent players on your team, get a clear sky badge "yea", and pull out a win, what cv play has become, cheers

 

[Gaugesix49]

I see, thats really a shame. Often i end up just getting camped by 3-4 US fighter squads right off the bat and they prevent me from taking off hahaha, theyll just sit like 7 km out from my carrier and insta kill anything i try to launch :/

[Gaugesix49]

It really seems to me that while all the players on the team in Battleships/Cruisers/Destroyers are having fun playing the game and trying to destroy each other, the Carriers are playing their own minigame in the sky having a fighter brawl. This is resulting in minimal effect on the game,  because YAY you killed the other players fighters, now YOU only have fighters left. Might as well sail into the cap zone or go afk. (Im not suggesting you do that im just being dramatic)

 

[TANSTAAFL]

A lot of this is to some extent a by-product of shoehorning carrier operations into a very small area which is sized (and under-sized at that) for ship-to-ship surface actions. That, and trying to create a balanced gameworld based on a history that saw carrier aviation utterly destroy the viability of gun-armed surface vessels in general naval warfare. It's inevitable that there are going to be weird things going on, because they can't simply reference history or existing real-world data to help them out; that data is predicated on a very different set of parameters than exists in the game.

 

I've played the IJN CVs a little--unlocked the Hiryu but haven't bought it--and I did see, while playing the first two that my fighters constantly were getting wiped out. The larger American squadrons were part of it, but even that didn't seem to explain how horrid the IJN fighter jocks performed. OTOH, my TBs and DBs have shot down a fair number of fighters too (usually, though, IJN). I'm not sure what the exact issue is, or what a solution would be, though. As long as you're forcing carriers to be this close to the surface battle, and as long as you're fudging the lethality of carrier aviation the way the game does, carriers are going to be odd ducks.

 

Just be thankful there are no submarines....

[Tuesdaysgone]

Nice reply Tanstaafl, I would have never gone down the cv line, knowing this is wg's solution, should have learned from planes

 

[Scotty_SE]

I recently started playing CV's a bit again after hitting Tier 10 in CBT. I'm frankly astonished how screwed up it it is and the no win scenario presented to CV drivers. Either go strike and get everything shot down and maybe get a few torps hit in, or go fighters and basically play a boring game of Starcraft and do nothing more than scout for your team. Oh boy....fun there.

 

I shot down *39* planes in my Langley the other night, and that's not running air superiority. Opposing IJN carriers weren't happy, so I can feel their pain. All a fighter load out Bogue has to do is park his fighters near his main ships and no IJN will be able to get close.

 

To which the IJN CV has the following limited options. If a 1v1 vs a USN CV then you need to spread your planes out looking for the unguarded section of the map and hope he keeps his fighters together which most do. Attack where he isn't.

 

If a 2x2, and you have a USN on your side attack as a group and have his fighters cancel out the opposing CVs and then freely torp his ships at will. If facing 2x Bogues quit and go back to port because you won't be able to do squat.

 

Said this in many prior posts, but the way to fix CV's is to cut their fighter groups and allow them a single defensive squadron with limited range but buffed durability. Increase the manual torpedo arming distance because it's still too stupidly short, and decrease turn around time for TB's. There, everybody is having fun again and CV's have the option of choosing where they want to defend with effect *just* like historical reference.

[suleiman71]

 

 

That's not...accurate at all.  Not the data, the data's good.  But NOWHERE CLOSE to enough data to come to valid conclusion.  You are using incomplete data to postulate conjecture.  

 

Allow me to elaborate:

Please tell me; how many of those Zuiho's wins were while paired with teammate in an american carrier?  Oh, you can't.  No data.

Please tell me; what percentage of Zuiho's included in the WinRate% did not survive the battle while opposing carrier did?  Oh, you can't.  No data.

Please tell me; what percentage of those Zuiho wins were contained a Zuiho on the opposite team?  Oh, you can't.  No data.

 

I believe what you are doing is detrimental to the growth of this game and toxic to any other players who don't know any better.  If you wish to continue deceiving your fellow players with your unfounded claims and flawed logic then I'll definitely be your biggest fan on this forum.

 

=]

 

Best post of the day right here.

[TurboT]

The funny thing in all of this is I ground to tier 10 in IJN, EXPECTING to lose fighter battles to USN CVs.  I hated it when it happened but knew that was how they were trying to balance the game off between the two nations CVs.  It sucks to be a fighter bully in USN but that was the games role for them.

 

What I DON'T EXPECT. Is to have my fighters LOSE to TB/DB squads and be completely unable to protect myself nor my team, now that I'm FORCED to take at least 2.  I really do accept that if I get more TB squads then I need to trade that off with something else, but watching my fighters drop out of the sky, not killing half a squad, and then getting nuked by a Midway who's planes I intercepted long ago is really hard to take. 

 

If I die by being stupid in this game and not paying attention, that's on me.   If I do everything right with my managing of squads, meanwhile the game screws me by having anti ship planes take down more of my fighters than I do of them, that is a major design fault.

 

[DopamineCircuit]

 

Best post of the day right here.

 

Danke.

[Alexander105]

Mitsubishi M6A, one of the most legendary planes ever created, about 3 years ahead of anything the allies could manufacture.  At first it had a KD of 12:1 and later after the allies started using squad dog fighting tactics that was lowered to 5:1 around 1943.  I think this is probably the most inaccurate representation in game out of everything WG has released.  If you wanted a proper representation then IJN would dominate with their fighter squadrons until tier 8 where Vought F4U finally had the resilience and horse power to handle the legendary "Zero", instead its just some flying garbage heap that just goes off and dies.  

 

Now before you all go "WoWs isn't supposed to be real, its a game" they have done a good job for the most part of translating many characteristics and aspects of this era into the game...besides this.  Its just disheartening to see such an iconic symbol of this time turned into absolutely nothing but trash.

[Tail_Red]

I'm only on the Hosho so I know I can't speak for the higher tiers, but I need some advice as well. I was asking some people how to work around the fighters from the Langley which were so devastating to my own fighters.

The resounding advice was to sacrifice my fighters in an attempt to quickly swarm the enemy Langley with my two Torp Bombers and hope I can get a quick kill in. I've only tried this once and it ended in a complete failure, anyone got any advice? Is this even a good strategy at all?

 

At the moment I'm just playing dodge and constantly moving my planes around their fighters but it makes it very difficult to actually be of any use to my team unless I get a few lucky windows in.

[userz123]

It's funny tWG give Japanese fighter the role of "interceptor" but they sucks even against bombers... 

 

I don't think WG understand what an INTERCEPTOR is, they are dedicated ANTI BOMBER fighter so that Japanese fighter should be really good against bombers! but they aren't.....

[Alexander105]

But IJN was never good against the Allied bombers, the zero was amazing at dog fighting and lacked sufficient fire power to severely damage them. Lightly armored but amazingly balanced and fast they would out maneuver any allied plane for years while filling them full of holes. By the end of the war they were still winning dog fights when numbers were even by noticeable margins.

 

Tail_Red, Its actually very easy to take on the Langley in a Hosho, split your TB in half across the map and make him choose a side for his fighter to dedicate defense to while the other TB gets to make a unrestricted run, then they freak out and move the fighter out of defensive position for your second TB to make a run.  He only has 1 fighter and you have 2 TB so you can always make him have a hard choice.  The Bogue is a whole other story but once you get the feel for dispersing your squadrons properly it helps when you move up the CV tiers.

[VTAdmiral]

I'm only on the Hosho so I know I can't speak for the higher tiers, but I need some advice as well. I was asking some people how to work around the fighters from the Langley which were so devastating to my own fighters.

The resounding advice was to sacrifice my fighters in an attempt to quickly swarm the enemy Langley with my two Torp Bombers and hope I can get a quick kill in. I've only tried this once and it ended in a complete failure, anyone got any advice? Is this even a good strategy at all?

 

At the moment I'm just playing dodge and constantly moving my planes around their fighters but it makes it very difficult to actually be of any use to my team unless I get a few lucky windows in.

 

On Hosho and Zuiho I had to use my fighters (and dive bombers) to bait enemy fighters away from targets of opportunity, than swoop in with TBs and attack. It doesn't always work. The idea is to make them think your whole force is over there. Carrier captains love torpedo bombers and will often chase them over anything else, even other fighters.

[Gaugesix49]

But IJN was never good against the Allied bombers, the zero was amazing at dog fighting and lacked sufficient fire power to severely damage them. Lightly armored but amazingly balanced and fast they would out maneuver any allied plane for years while filling them full of holes. By the end of the war they were still winning dog fights when numbers were even by noticeable margins.

 

Sadly this is not the case in game, on paper the speed of the IJN fighters are faster but in reality, and practical application this is just not the case. The speed bonus is negligible. I spend days chasing bombers which outrun me