A detailed look at Scharnhorst/Gneisenau

[dseehafer]

 

Greetings all,

 

     Today we will be taking a close look at the German Battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. These two are interesting ships, and will play in game just as interestingly. They are armored like battleships, but armed like cruiser, which is why they are widely considered battlecruisers even though the German's never referred to the class as such. Although the class did follow Germany's vission of the battlecruiser during WWi, lots of armor, lesser armament.

 

     These ships will offer an interesting play style, they will be especially great against cruisers having high rof and good range. But they will struggle to pen battleships, i suggest shooting HE at them. The Scharny's were strictly ordered to avoid all confrontations with ANY  British battleship , new or old, simply because the guns didnt have enough penetration. The layout of 9x 11" guns was supposed to be temporary, they were to have been upgraded to 6x 15" guns ASAP, unfortunatelly war broke out and these two ships became very very busy sinking ships and causing havoc. The Conversion did start on Gneisenau late in the war, but this never got far.

 

PRE-ANALYSIS TIERING

This is a huge topic, many people disagree about the tiering of this ship. personally i believe she belongs at tier 7, and this post will prove why.

 

 

WEIGHT

 

SCHARNY - 39,017

NAGATO - 45, 816

COLORADO - 41,140

 

At war overload weight, Scharnhorst still comes out just a few thousand tons lower than her competitors. She will probably have lower hitpoints than the other two... this i dont see as being a problem... but we will get to that.

 

 

PRIMARY ARMAMNET

 

SCHARNY - 3x3 283mm (11")

NAGATO - 4x2 406mm (16")

COLORADO - 4x2 406mm (16")

 

 

MAIN BATTERY RELOAD SPEED

 

SCHARNY - 17-20s (Navweaps gives me 3.5rpm, WG always nerfs German reload so 20s is more realistic for WG, still very good)

NAGATO - 32s

COLORADO - 30s

 

Here we can see that, even with smaller guns, the Scharnhorst has an insane rpm and probably dpm!! It outperforms her competitors in both these areas, this will be balanced by her relative low penetration

 

 

SOCANDARY ARMAMENT

 

SCHNARNY - 12x 150mm, 14x 105mm

NAGATO - 18x 140mm, 8x 127mm

COLORADO - 16x 127mm

 

here we can see that Scharnhorst has the most secondary armament of any tier 7 battleship, however it is unlikely anything but maybe a battleship will even have a chance to get within your secondary battery range with it's outrageous reload speed and dpm. And anything that gets within your secondary range will not live long anyways......

 

TORPEDOS

 

SCHARNY - 2x3 533mm

NAGATO - N/A

COLORADO - N/A

 

I think we can safely say that between the fast turning, quick reloading main guns, oodles of secondary armament and torpedo tubes, under 6km is the Scharnhorst's "Killing Zone" Nothing will live long under this range.. nothing. But will Scharnhorst survive such a close encounter, for such a task you need armor, lots of armor... Tirpitz grade armor...

 

 

ARMOR

 

SCHARNY

Belt: 170 - 350mm 

Decks: 48 - 100mm

Turrets: 191 - 358mm

Armored Bridge: 218 - 350mm

Turtle back: 105mm (Tirpitz's is 110mm)

 

NAGATO

Belt: 229 - 305mm

Decks: 38 - 207mm

Turrets: 190 - 457mm

Armored Bridge: 356mm

Trutle back: 76mm

 

COLORADO

Belt: 178 - 343mm

Decks: 38 - 120mm

Turrets: 127 - 457mm

Armored Bridge: 406mm

Trutle back: N/A

 

Scharnhorst, like Tirpitz, will rule at close range brawling (really all German battleships will be, they are the masters of the Turtle back). However, while the turtle back prevents close range citadels, it also prevents overpen, leading to higher than normal damage rolls anyways. Also like Tirpitz, DO NOT FIGHT AT ANY RANGE OVER 10KM, PLUNGING FIRE WILL WRECK YOU! Scharny is a close range purebred!

 

 

SPEED

 

SCHRANY - 31.6kn

NAGATO - 25kn

COLORADO - 21kn

 

Scharnhorst dominates here, heck she dominates everywhere with a speed close to 32kn she will be the fastest battleship in the game as of current! But she is longer than both Nag and Col, So, like Tirpitz, expect her turning circle to be rather crap.

 

 

AA DEFENSE

 

SCHARNY - 29 mounts - 7x2 105mm, 8x2 37mm, 4x4 20mm, 10x1 20mm

NAGATO - 20 mounts - 4x3 127mm, 12x3 25mm, 4x2 25mm

COLORADO - 52 mounts - 8x1 127mm, 5x2 40mm, 6x4 40mm, 33x1 20mm

 

Not much to say here, Scharnhorst is right in the middle. Its fine for tier 7

 

 

     So here we have a ship which, like Tirpitz dominates at close range combat. great armor, plenty of secondaries, high turret speed, extremely high rof, high dpm, torpedoes, decent AA and high speed are all great things about this ship. However, she will have a large turning circle, has terrible long range armor, lowest hitpoints of the tier,  will probably be the first ship to be spotted because of her size. The penetration is CRAP against battleships but adequate for everything else. Play it like the real Schanrhorst, beat the crud outta everyhting, but STAY AWAY from long range combat with battleships if at all possible. (with a 32kn speed this shouldnt be too hard) 

 

Hope you guys enjoyed this one, lemme know what you think in the comments, does she belong at tier 7? somewhere else? does she even have a place in this game at all?

 

 

[RearAdmiralButts]

She was supposed to get 15 inch guns,  I have a feeling that perhaps that might be an option WG will be looking hard at to Tier her.

[dseehafer]

She was supposed to get 15 inch guns,  I have a feeling that perhaps that might be an option WG will be looking hard at to Tier her.

 

i feel that if she does get the 6x 15" guns for an upgraded hull we will have a similar situation to the current mogami... no one will upgrade the guns because the stock guns are better. I mean who wants to go from having 9 guns with a 17 sec reload to having 6 guns with a 26 sec reload for just more damage per shot but less damage per minute??

[DoomStomper]

Might be interesting if it gets the option to mount either 9x11" or 6x15".  Similar DPM vs alpha decision to that of the Mogami with its 15x6" or 10x8" choice.

 

Edit: Looks like this was already brought up.  They might address the issue by giving the 15" a better arc to go with its increased penetration.  Possibly a faster traverse speed as well.

 

[devilman275]

 

i feel that if she does get the 6x 15" guns for an upgraded hull we will have a similar situation to the current mogami... no one will upgrade the guns because the stock guns are better. I mean who wants to go from having 9 guns with a 17 sec reload to having 6 guns with a 26 sec reload for just more damage per shot but less damage per minute??

i would rather see the 15'' as a premium that watch it become mogami 2.0

 

i'd stay with the 280 just for the change of gameplay and ''historical'' firepower anytime over the 15''s upgrade

[Daigensui]

i would rather see the 15'' as a premium that watch it become mogami 2.0

 

Too late.

[AdmiralPiett]

The gun choice will make it interesting. You can choose either standard BB fare, or anti-cruiser death machine.

[Dr_Venture]

Scharnhorst is one of those ships you know are going to be fantastic either way...I love the look of her...and 11 inch guns aren't bad considered most of the ships at tier 5/6/7 doesn't come with a whole lot of armor to begin with. 

[MikeCMyers]

Give Scharnhorst the 11", and make Gneisenau a premium with the 14.96".

[dseehafer]

Give Scharnhorst the 11", and make Gneisenau a premium with the 14.96".

 

I agree, only gneisenau actually started the conversion! It would be logical to make her the 15" premium. 

[Lert]

I can see Scharnhorst in the tech tree with 11" stock and 15" upgraded, otherwise she won't have a chance against battleships with the historically low penetration on the 11" guns. Gneisenau could make a premium with like less AA or less hitpoints or something.

[dseehafer]

I can see Scharnhorst in the tech tree with 11" stock and 15" upgraded, otherwise she won't have a chance against battleships with the historically low penetration on the 11" guns. Gneisenau could make a premium with like less AA or less hitpoints or something.

 

Scharnhorst will have to fire HE against battleship, german HE damage is terribly low, but all you really need to do is set a few fires as you run away, out of range or behind an islan or something. I feel like you cant have a gun upgrade without a hull upgrade, since the bow would have been lengthened by some 90' with the 15' guns. But people wouldnt like having that limo bow with the 11" guns as it iis unhistorical. The 15" Gneisenau still looks best as a premium. Here you can see the lengthened bow n the bottom image, also note other changes.. movement of main mast, extended hangar, Bismarck class turrets, improved AA

 

 

 

[BGrey]

That seems like a lot of work to add guns that they were supposedly designed for.

[dseehafer]

That seems like a lot of work to add guns that they were supposedly designed for.

 

They were desinged for the 11" guns, with the intention of upgrading them to the 15" guns. They did not design them to have the 15" guns, because the 15" guns werent even available when they were being built.

[Seloth]

Put the torpedo tubes back on the Gneisnau and make it a premium.

Six 53.3 cm (21.0 in) above-water torpedo tubes, taken from the light cruisers Nürnberg and Leipzig, were installed in 1942

[PPH402]

I definitely want the ship in the game. I'm leaning towards having it be like the Mogami, where you get the choice between guns with an upgrade. I don't know which route I'd go. I like the thought of a BB with a high rate of fire that can kill CAs and DDs, so I'd be tempted to keep the 11" guns, but not being able to pen your tier mates wouldn't be good. 

 

Tiering is tough. I want to say 7 is too high, but then I remember the torps. Even short range, they're still torps and that can be a game changer. 

[devilman275]

Put the torpedo tubes back on the Gneisnau and make it a premium.

Six 53.3 cm (21.0 in) above-water torpedo tubes, taken from the light cruisers Nürnberg and Leipzig, were installed in 1942

 

would be a pretty damn interesting premium for tier 7 i'd say !

[MikeCMyers]

Am I the only one who gets OCD annoyed when people call them 15" guns when they were really 14.96"? Irks me soo much. Almost as much when people spell Bismarck Bismark.

[AdmiralPiett]

Am I the only one who gets OCD annoyed when people call them 15" guns when they were really 14.96"? Irks me soo much. Almost as much when people spell Bismarck Bismark.

 

It is standard practice to round the number up or down to the nearest inch when using Imperial measurements. Nagato has 16.14" guns. Yamato has 18.11" guns. However, people mentioning that is rare. They just round down. I personally use whatever designation the country used (Metric or Imperial) when I write papers and such.

[ryuukei8569]

Well given that there is functionally little difference between T6 and T7 BB's in terms of overall firepower and survivability, Scharnhorst could fit in either tier. However since the Bayern's are likely to go to T6, scharnhorsts are stuck at T7, unless WG decides to stick the Ersatz Yorck class battlecruisers in the T7 slot. However for Scharnhorst to really compete, she will need the 3.5 RPM, as the 11 inch shells will in all likeliness do less AP and HE damage than 12 inch guns. Unfortunately unlike tirpitz, Scharnhorst isn't really going to have an HP advantage, just a speed advantage, and it would be harder to citadel than at least Nagato. Colorado is a royal pain to citadel thanks to her very thick belt, but her HP is appallingly low, and she is dirt slow. However with those high velocity and likely pretty accurate guns, Scharnhorst will be a monster against cruisers. Though her AA will likely be pretty abysmal if tirpitz is anything to go by. I don't see her having too much of a problem fighting Nagato or Fuso, but New Mexico and Colorado, both of which have very thick armor belts, I don't see sharnhorst doing well against them either at range or up close. But given that there isn't a lot of capability difference from T6 t0 T7 BB's, schanrhorst can fit in either Tier. However I do see her strugging very badly against Amagi and north carolina, and she will be in deep crap, even more so than other T7 BB's if encountering Iowa. So T6 is probably a little safer for her, if it weren't for the fact that the bayerns are likely to end up here.

[Daigensui]

unless WG decides to stick the Ersatz Yorck class battlecruisers in the T7 slot

 

Separate line, frankly.

 

 

she will need the 3.5 RPM

 

Myth needs to die.

[dseehafer]

 

Tiering is tough. I want to say 7 is too high, but then I remember the torps. Even short range, they're still torps and that can be a game changer. 

 

Its armor is comparable to tirpitz, even stronger in some areas! (belt is 320 compared to 315 for tirp) and we all know how people complain about Tirpitz armor being to OP and how it should actually be tier 10 not 8 (funny these are the same people who wanted it at tier 6 originally )  The ONLY  thing that puts the scharnhorst at tier 7 is her main armament and weight, otherwise shed probably be tier 8. Whatever tier they put Scharnhorst at people will still complain about it being to hard to citadel, get used to it people, Even the WWI German dreadnaughts had turtle backs. you will never reliably be able to citadel a German BB, im warning you now.

[dseehafer]

Well given that there is functionally little difference between T6 and T7 BB's in terms of overall firepower and survivability, Scharnhorst could fit in either tier. However since the Bayern's are likely to go to T6, scharnhorsts are stuck at T7, unless WG decides to stick the Ersatz Yorck class battlecruisers in the T7 slot. However for Scharnhorst to really compete, she will need the 3.5 RPM, as the 11 inch shells will in all likeliness do less AP and HE damage than 12 inch guns. Unfortunately unlike tirpitz, Scharnhorst isn't really going to have an HP advantage, just a speed advantage, and it would be harder to citadel than at least Nagato. Colorado is a royal pain to citadel thanks to her very thick belt, but her HP is appallingly low, and she is dirt slow. However with those high velocity and likely pretty accurate guns, Scharnhorst will be a monster against cruisers. Though her AA will likely be pretty abysmal if tirpitz is anything to go by. I don't see her having too much of a problem fighting Nagato or Fuso, but New Mexico and Colorado, both of which have very thick armor belts, I don't see sharnhorst doing well against them either at range or up close. But given that there isn't a lot of capability difference from T6 t0 T7 BB's, schanrhorst can fit in either Tier. However I do see her strugging very badly against Amagi and north carolina, and she will be in deep crap, even more so than other T7 BB's if encountering Iowa. So T6 is probably a little safer for her, if it weren't for the fact that the bayerns are likely to end up here.

 

Your assuming the Scharnhorst will actually fight battleships. Any smart Scharnhorst captains will use their superior speed to pick and choose their fights. Primary targets are cruisers, dont even bother with battleships. But the Scharnhorst armor ensures that it will survive a battle with a battleship long enough to retreat or hide. Or close within 6km and fire EVERYTHING!! the low hitpoints are the balancing factor to its tier 8 grade armor.

[JojoTheMongol]

I can't wait for the Scharnhorst. She will be a real Cruiser killer.

 

Those Cleveland Captains tears are going to taste so sweet.

[dseehafer]

 

Separate line, frankly.

 

 

 

Myth needs to die.

 

I saw your negative comment and was all like, "oh great another Daigensui type person" Then i saw that you were daigensui... sneaky little prick you changed your profile pic .  BTW when the Schranhorsts sank the Glorious they were recorded on video, you can watch with your own eyes them firing once every 18-20 seconds. Plus Navweaps says it so it must be true!