A Detailed look at Ise/Hyuga

[dseehafer]

 

Greetings all,

 

     After the success of my first post like this (A detailed look at Dunkerque/Strasbourg) I have decided to make a series out of this. I will feature a new ship class each day (not yet in game) and will give you guys a complete rundown on the statistics and a tier guess. At the end we can all sit and discuss the ships and how they will play in game/ should they even be in the game? Today i have 2 very interesting sisters to say the very least Ise and Hyuga

 

     The Ise class battleships were at first intended to be two more Fusos, but so many modifications were added that they became a new class altogether. The most noticeable difference is that the midsection turrets are now super-firing  (one over the other) to the rear behind the funnel, instead of one flanking each other on either side of the funnel as was in the Fuso class. This means that all 6 turrets are in 3 super-firing pairs. The turret arrangement is the same as Wyoming's if you need a visual reference. the number of guns, gun calibre and number of turrets remain the same as Fuso, with the only difference being in gun layout. During 1943 the ships rear turrets were removed and replaced with a flight deck for handling floatplanes, creating an entire new type of ship half battleship, half carrier. This conversion left the Ise sisters with only 4 14" gun turrets. We will first look at the Pre-modification Ise as it would be easiest to balance in game.

 

PRE-ANALYSIS TIER PLACEMENT

I think this class of ship belongs at tier 6, it has enough similarity's to the Fuso which is already at tier 6, that i think it will do fine here. Thus we will be comparing Ise's stats to Fuso's in game stats in our Analysis.

 

WEIGHT

 

ISE: 42,675t

 

FUSO: 39,105t

 

Ise will have more hitpoints than Fuso, she will need them as a cushion from potential air attack damage.

 

 

MAIN BATTERY

 

ISE: 6X2 356mm (14") 

 

FUSO: 6x2 256mm (14")

 

No difference here, so far so good.

 

 

SECONDARY ARMAMENT

 

ISE: 16x1 140mm, 4x2 127mm

 

FUSO: 14x1 152mm, 4x2 127mm

 

Fuso has slighly larger guns but 2 less than Ise, again i dont see a problem here.

 

 

AA ARMAMENT

 

ISE: Total mounts = 14 (4x2 127mm, 10x2 25mm)

 

FUSO: Total mounts = 24 (4x2 127mm, 7x1 25mm, 2x2 25mm, 6x4 13.2mm, 4x2 13.2mm, 1x1 13.2mm)

 

Fuso has 10 more mounts than Ise, but has fewer 25mm. Ise wont be known for her AA in game, but it will do for tier 6

 

 

ARMOR

 

ISE:

belt: 100-299mm

deck: 55-149mm

turrets: 152-254mm

armored bridge: 305mm

 

FUSO:

belt: 105-305mm

deck: 51-99mm

turrets: 152-279mm

armored bridge: 305mm

 

 

SPEED

 

ISE: 25kn

 

FUSO: 24kn

 

Ise wins by a knot, but she is slightly longer so she may have a slightly larger turning circle

 

CONVERSION

 

     Here is how i would balance a battlecarrier. It would have 2 squadrons of 5 planes each of Judy dive bomber float planes, these planes were carried in real life as well. I would have them act like fighter aircraft as far as engaging targets is concerned. you will launch the two squadrons and they will cricle overhead and will attack any ship that comes within a certain range, say 10km, you can select the target the same way you select a target for your AA and secondarys Ctrl + click. After the attack they will return to your ship while were they will have a cooldown. I do not know, however, if the damage done by these bomber attacks would justify getting rid of 2 turrets of 14" guns....

 

(NOTE: the  total number of 25mm AA mounts increases to 42 with the conversion)

 

Thoughts, comments, concerns? Would you like to see these ships in game battlecarrier or not? Lemme know in the comments!

 

 

[irishgreek]

More battleships is good.  Would love to see them, in both forms.  Would be very interesting.

[Fog_Heavy_Cruiser_Chokai]

Hyuuga is Definetely interesting. Having a mixed ship could be beautiful, and she has a nice history. Also, who wouldn't want this ships in game? ...Never mind will edit it in later. Not working on my phone -.-

 

[Hereticus2142]

I'd throw so much money at Ise/Hyuga, Do want!

[Dr_Venture]

Ise would totally be a six with a fighter wing, and two dive bombers. The planes would take longer to reload...but cmon...it's a BB with friggin planes!

 

Also the AA would be damn good for a tier 6...considering they strengthened the hell out of her when the deck was put on. 

[BladedPheonix]

the main thing to consider is how will WG allow the ISE and her sister Hyuga, to use their 12 something planes carried. I'll list some of the hard hitting Qs so you can get an idea

 

Will they be used like normal scout planes? 1 launched at a time.

 

or

 

Will they be able to launch multiple planes at a time

 

If they are able to launch multiple planes at a time will they be single units or in squads?

 

Will these planes have set way points like normal ships or will they function like CVs and allow you to set way points to patrol and scout?

 

Historically Ise's scouts carried 250 and 500 kg. bombs, will this be allowed for this "special" ship's class?

 

There's many questions we could just discuss about the planes carried by these 2 ships and a large amount of potential that these ships could bring to the playing field if done right! the question is will WG do the right thing to make these ships not only balanced but also a blast to play as well as be unique compared to the rest of BBs not only in their nations tech tree but also a gem to be stand out against every other nation's tech tree BBS!

 

 

and its not just these two ships! We also have the Tone scout cruiser with HER 5 float scout planes that could also fall under the same category and conditions as the Ise and her sister!

 

 

 

 

[YamatoA150]

I'm hoping that Wargaming would make the BBCV version of Ise as an optional alternate hull similar to the USN DDs final hull variants that came in 4.1, with the final pure BB hull upgrade fixing the range issue of turret 6 and adding extra AA and armoring that historically only the BBCV versions got and being a non-historical upgrade (kind of like Myogi [C]).  So It'd be Ise [A], Ise then Ise BB [C] (which is fictional) and Ise BBCV [C].  Then just release a Hyuuga BBCV Premium separately at T6 for those players who would rather go the pure BB path on the Ise but still want play around with a BBCV in Hyuuga (also adds the benefit of training a BBCV captain separately from a pure BB captain).

 

They would probably have a longer-than-normal upgrade path though.  Here's a crappy and non-accurate example of what I'd think Ise's upgrade path might look like (just used Fuso and Ryujo).  The only difference is that there would be a side-grade BBCV hull at [C], which would lead to choosing aircraft loadouts as well as researching aircraft.

 

 

Something similar, as far as alternate final hulls go, can be done for Mogami as well, since only Mogami became an aircraft-carrying cruiser while her other sister ships got more conventional upgrades.

 

Then there's the Tone-class, which also carried some planes.  It could be a straight-up Premium in the same tier as Mogami, if not a separate one-off ship class branching from Mogami.

 

Sure their planes will be inferior, but they would help slow down bomber groups and hold down some planes for the ship's own AA to further wear them down.  I could see Tone and Mogami being able to launch either controllable fighter planes or scout planes; both would give the IJN the spotting advantage for their BBs or an artificial boost to AA defense if working them alongside their ships or nearby allied ships.

[dseehafer]

This is an interesting topic as there are several examples of battlecarriers and seaplane carriers in 20th century naval history such as Ise, Gotland, Mogami, Mizuho, Chitose, Stuttgart, Bussard, Freisland, i would definately like to see these addedinto the game in some way

[PcolaTy_1]

How would it be added into the game, as a normal tree or as premium?

[capncrunch21]

I think the Ise/Hyuga should be put in the game. However they should only be put in as the hybrid carrier/battleship version.

 

Why you may ask?

 

Because their BB configuration is so close to the Fuso as to effectively make them Fuso's in the game. (Heck, if the Devs really wanted to, they could simply add a Hull 'D'' option to the Fuso tree to include the middle superfiring turret configuration - after all Ise and Hyuga were in real life just design improvements to the Fuso line).

 

But honestly, for the development time to be spent on them, it would be best to just go straight to the radically different Tier 6 carrier/battleship shown below.

 

 

Despite how cool this is, its combat performance is terrible. Now don't get me wrong, I always loved the hybrid concept as a kid. But as an adult I found out it basically received the worst of both worlds by doing the conversion.

 

First, it loses two entire gun turrets (four 14 inch guns - 1/3 of its main firepower) and secondly, it severely restricts the firing arc on the Number 4 (aft most) turret, hampering the ship's combat capability even farther (the elevated Number 3 turret still has the same tower restriction it had before the CV conversion). What it gains from this is a short 'no landing', catapult launch only flight deck, that is really only able to handle floatplanes effectively. Floatplanes themselves are terrible when compared to other conventional carrier based aircraft. That said, in the capable hands of a good player, this ship would be a blast to play. Think of playing a Kongo and Hosho at the same time - albeit a slow moving Kongo and a Hosho with mostly dive bomber floatplanes as it's aircraft complement.

 

Speaking of which, here's what it would carry aircraft-wise:

 

Everyone seems to be in agreement that these ships were supposed to carry 22 aircraft (though because of wartime shortages of pilots and aircraft, they never actually carried a full compliment). These 22 aircraft were of two types - Ise's final aircraft allowance called for 8 Yokosuka D4Y2 Suisei ("Judy") dive bombers and 14 Aichi E16A Zuiun ("Paul") seaplanes.

 

With Japanese aircraft squadrons operating with 4 aircraft each in WoWS, this would give the Ise-class BBCV five squadrons at its disposal - all dive bombers (3 active, 2 reserve) plus 2 spotter seaplanes. The two "Judy" squadrons would be 'one use' only aircraft because with their conventional (not seaplane) landing gear, they could not land back at the BBCV and rearm. The remaining 3 squadrons would be slow, under gunned "Paul" floatplanes that would be easy pickings for any fighter group. Now even though the 'Judy' dive bombers are Tier 8 aircraft in WoWS, this isn't a problem. Remember the Judys (conventional dive bombers) could take off from the Ise or Hyuga, but could not land back on them, making them a one time only attack from the hybrid BBCVs (and thus half the ship's squadrons would be gone after that single attack). The Paul seaplanes (outfitted as dive bombers) could be recovered, but it would be a slow process. Unfortunately I can't find out what Tier they are in WoWS, but even if they are higher than Tier 6, this is also no problem, as they would be balanced out by the slow re-arm times that catapult seaplanes get when recovered by ships under steam - they have a very long 'reload' time compared to normal carriers (see cruiser spotter and fighter cooldown times). Plus their relatively slow speeds and vulnerability to other aircraft would balance them out too, if they are as high in the tiers as the Judys are.

 

Now the ship itself performs like a crippled Kongo. It's slow, has limited firing arcs, all its heavy secondary batteries are replaced with AA guns (though some of these are Dual Purpose secondaries), and is larger and easier to hit. Still it makes for a great fire support ship at distance - just don't try to brawl with it. lol.

 

I wasn't really sure how to include this ship in the Japanese Navy Tech Tree. At first I thought it should be included in the carrier line as the player should have some CV knowledge to run its aircraft. However as a carrier, it stinks (it loses half its planes after the first attack, and has underperforming, slow to reload planes for the rest of the time), thus crippling the team that would get one as its only carrier - especially against an Independence or Ryujo. So it should be included in the BB line. However as a special ship with unique needs, it probably shouldn't be included in the normal progression. That and the fact that there really isn't any 'upgrading' that can be done to it. This makes it fit right in with 'premium' ships. Although as a premium ship, it might have a drawback, as it could be purchased by anyone, it could be extremely frustrating to play for anyone not familiar with both BB and CV tactics and operation. That said, I certainly don't want to have it end up locked behind an event 'reward' wall, as this would essentially waste a great deal of effort on the Devs part to make the ship and get it working - just so five people in the game could ever play it. So I think premium is probably the best choice (and also good for WG's pocketbook despite the initial frustration some people may have with it).

 

Again, I think this would be a very cool ship to include in the game, I would certainly buy it in a heartbeat when it was made available. Here's a discussion thread I started on this ship some time back: http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/71358-japanese-naval-experts-needed-q-ise-bbcv-aircraft-compliment. What do you all think of the above? Any additional ideas?

[IronWolfV]

Nice look as always. Hope you caught the Enterprise look.

[dseehafer]

Nice look as always. Hope you caught the Enterprise look.

 

Yep it's on the page.... also do you know how old this is? This is the second ADLA i ever did! 

[IronWolfV]

 

Yep it's on the page.... also do you know how old this is? This is the second ADLA i ever did! 

 

wow, I didn't even look at the date. Silly boy i am.

[DokturProfesur]

Ise would surely be an interesting ship to play, but I think she'd be a bit too complicated for her own good. We have players who don't understand how to play battleships or carriers already, so putting the two together and letting any Joe Average play it is a recipe for disaster.

[capncrunch21]

Ise would surely be an interesting ship to play, but I think she'd be a bit too complicated for her own good. We have players who don't understand how to play battleships or carriers already, so putting the two together and letting any Joe Average play it is a recipe for disaster.

 

It might be, but at least it isn't armed with Torpedo planes - -which would definitely be a nightmare with first time ship drivers. lol!

[Chesters_Goat]

I'll definitely buy her if she becomes available as a premium ship.

[Gabriel_LXIX]

I hate these ships and everything about them

 

 

[YamatoA150]

On reflection of my original statement, I still agree with it for the most part.  I would like to add that I feel Ise/Hyuuga would be better off as a branch line from Fuso, but as a side branch still in T6 territory.  The only thing I might amend is suggesting maybe branching the BBCV versions of Ise into another side branch (and allowing a side-link into a T6 CV branch instead of only being able to branch in from T4).

 

In the case the BBCV Ise is a separate ship from a pure BB Ise, BBCV Ise would mainly get WG original upgrades on a and [C] Hull to gradually improve the combat ability of BBCV Ise (speed, main gun range, dispersion, AA, and/or aircraft; any mix to different degrees).  And a Premium Hyuuga would sit between a WG-original Ise Hull and a WG-original Ise Hull [C], with something minor bot reasonable to differentiate it from BBCV Ise.  Such as giving it the AADF consumable and call it even, or another module slot, or better damage repair or damage control.

 

The reason for this double branch is to restrict access to BBCV Ise from most regular players, who'd be more interested in going up a line rather than staying in one tier area (at least until they get stuck around T8 for reasons), as well as from a slightly historical and upgrade path perspective:

- Ise was a mostly improved Fuso to the point it was considered a new line (which, in game terms, Ise [A] would roughly be equivalent to Hull Fuso, if not Hull [C])

- BBCV Ise would already be starting out roughly equivalent to an original Hull [C] Ise as BBCV Ise would already have the numerous AA mounts in the base Hull [A].  Granted, this is assuming WG gives BB Ise a WG original Hull [C], which would just have more AA to match that of the actual BBCV version, as well as an improved Turret 6 (if its range issue is kept rather than normalized with the other 5 turrets).  And BBCV Ise simply would not have the power or capability to match in T9 combat, so keeping it at T6 will also spare it from being too badly undergunned.

 

The true value of Ise would be its capability to spot for itself (and loosely by extension, the team), as well as being able to immediately act on what it spots with its main guns (compared to the turnaround + flight time for bombers) as well as providing a rudimentary burst of AA via its floatplanes (let's assume WG will let them be fighter floatplanes, with a separate individual spotter floatplane purely to boost Ise's gun range temporarily).  Of course, it's still going to have a tough time; the floatplanes are inferior to proper CV planes, the lack of dedicated secondaries will make fighting DDs a bit iffier, and IJN AA is still going to be inferior to USN AA (though it should better be able to handle planes of the general tier, maybe excluding Saipan's, compared to all other IJN ships in that tier), but for those able to multitask between 1st and 3rd person, it'll fill a unique role in which it can spot enemy DDs in advance for itself/team or temporarily cover a section of airspace that isn't being watched by the team's CVs (if there's one).  A true support ship in every sense, as well as a genuine jack-of-all-trades.  Though it'll be a master of patience (8 guns, bad angles, more intensive multitasking than a proper BB or CV, etc).

[Misato]

Looking at this I wonder if it can cut it at tier 6.  It loses 2 Fuso guns, and at least in my Fuso, I tend to always use all six.  She isn't a boat where some are hard to get on target, so realistically it's a Fuso with 1/3rd of her damage gone.  Fuso average damage over the past two weeks is around 45k, so that means basically count on the guns to do 30k, assuming they don't have any silly traverse issues or anything like that.  So that means the gimped aircraft part of the boat has to do 15k damage, just to keep up with the Fuso.  That seems like a big ask, on top of the fact this thing screams floating target to me, and with HE the carrier part is useless.  I've got no idea what the citadel situation would be here either, but that back deck can't be well armored.  In practice she may fall somewhere between tiers 5 and 6, if not outright being a tier 5 boat.

[YamatoA150]

BBCV Ise can probably manage at T6 (moreso assuming WG gives her a stronger Hull and Hull [C], mainly to buff the armor, if not improving turret accuracy as well), but it will really have to play a more sniper-like support role (spotting with aircraft then attempting to suppress with 2-4 turrets).

 

Interestingly, BBCV Ise and Hyuuga also had AA Rocket Launchers.  I do wonder if WG would implement them too, as they did say they would allow rocket launchers, but not guided missiles.

[capncrunch21]

Looking at this I wonder if it can cut it at tier 6.  It loses 2 Fuso guns, and at least in my Fuso, I tend to always use all six.  She isn't a boat where some are hard to get on target, so realistically it's a Fuso with 1/3rd of her damage gone.  Fuso average damage over the past two weeks is around 45k, so that means basically count on the guns to do 30k, assuming they don't have any silly traverse issues or anything like that.  So that means the gimped aircraft part of the boat has to do 15k damage, just to keep up with the Fuso.  That seems like a big ask, on top of the fact this thing screams floating target to me, and with HE the carrier part is useless.  I've got no idea what the citadel situation would be here either, but that back deck can't be well armored.  In practice she may fall somewhere between tiers 5 and 6, if not outright being a tier 5 boat.

 

Actually you'll be surprised to find out that back deck section is actually really well armored -

 

"The new deck was covered with 200 mm (7.9 in) of concrete to compensate for the unbalanced condition created after removal of the aft armament. A 1 m (3 ft) thick layer of concrete was also poured around the main and reserve steering rooms and a 150 mm (5.9 in) horizontal armor cover was added."

 

I think 8" to 36" of concrete and 6" of armor is pretty good protection.

[3li7e_NGineer42O]

Relatively old topic but this sounds good.

If the Converted CV branch (Shinano) makes it, Hyuga should replace Kaga as the premium T7 while Kaga enters the tech tree.