Shell Types: Thoughts on High Explosive

[VTAdmiral]

I've been thinking about this for a while now and my conclusion is that High Explosive does too much, too easily.

HE shells cannot be bounced. They explode regardless of impact angle. There is no "skill" to using it because it will have an effect regardless of what the opponent does.

HE shells can damage external as well as internal modules, regardless of enemy armor, such as steering gears and engines. Knocking out external modules like secondaries and AA guns at least makes sense.

HE shells of course cause fires, which while a fairly low chance, is spammed with such volume from many cruisers that it still lights numerous fires very rapidly.

HE shells do an amount of damage close (though behind) the damage caused by AP shells-- while causing damage regardless of impact angle. It's only slightly nullified by striking armor, which means battleship armor belts, as the penetration is inexplicably so high that it can cit-hit even heavy cruisers.

 

This is a problem. It has no counterplay on the part of the targets and does too much. It is a jack of all trades, master of all shell.

 

The reason WG designed HE to operate this way is because they wanted HE to be an "everyman" ammunition, while AP is the "skill" ammunition. The problem with this is that HE does so much and is so easy to use that it often outstrips the usefulness of AP ammunition. Even battleships are spamming HE.

 

The conclusion I've reached is to separate High Explosive's damage from its effects.

Apply the damage to a third shell, General Purpose ammunition. It will damage, regardless of impact angle, for a reasonable amount that is reduced by armor. Impact damage can even be raised slightly in exchange for removing its ability to Cit-Pen at all. Destroyers don't even have citadels so penetration isn't even necessary, and that's the only ship type where GP ammo would have a significant advantage.

Retain the effects (module damage) to High Explosive ammunition, and give it a shell bounce mechanic identical to AP. Actual damage is low to nonexistent.

 

HE's current role in being used against destroyers and light cruisers shifts to General Purpose ammo.

AP's role, penetrating heavy armor on battleships and heavy cruisers, remains unchanged.

HE's new role is what I would call a "Status Effect Spell" from other online games. There is no damage, its purpose is causing fires and knocking out modules.

 

Games start with GP ammo selected by default.

 

GP/General Purpose ammunition takes the slot as the easy-to-use everyman ammunition WG wanted, a shell type that doesn't require much skill to use, but is unlikely to transform the player into an unstoppable powerhouse unless he's fighting lightly armored things.

HE/High Explosive ammunition becomes a shell type that requires skill to use, and has beneficial effect by knocking out modules and causing fires.

AP/Armor Piercing ammunition remains a skill shell type for piercing armor and causing high damage when striking the citadel.

 

This way you are not rewarded with repeated module damage and fires while simultaneously spamming the single most reliable damage-causing ammunition type in the game. Knocking out engines and steering actually requires skill, timing shots so that they are not bounced. Targets of HE-spammers have a chance at self defense by armor angling (a thing that actually did happen, as striking at oblique angles crushed the detonators in HE shells rather than setting them off). Flamethrower cruisers become GP-throwers, reliable but low damage or anti-destroyer duties. Else, they must sacrifice alpha damage for damaging modules.

 

Thoughts?

[sherman255]

As a BB captain, I fully agree with this topic and would like HE to be less effective with fires, especially with USN bb's, but then again my BB's can throw out 40 damage at tier 6 even, so it's a balance of terms i guess. 

 

[Strike_Witch_Tomoko]

HE is fine right now.

ships like Atlanta have nothing but HE as their AP is that bad.

even cruisers need HE to fight BBs. 

 

the 2 shells are equal and have their own place.

 

AP is for shooting cruisers (or BBs if your in a BB)  and HE is for all else.

 

 

AP is not skill ammunition, its situational gamble ammo.

 

 

no need for a 3rd shell.  as BBs seem to have enough trouble learning to shoot 2 shells(use HE ffs)

 

 

imagine if Atlanta's HE shell now only does dmg with no module or fire chance.........well first off then HE isn't HE.  

2nd off Atlanta is fked first BB it meets.

 

GP would be useless as fire dmg alone is unreliable due to the ability to repair. and Atlanta having 5% chance.

so while Atlanta has to choose which of the 2 useless rounds to use (neither of any use on their own)

BBs would just use AP to massacre everything.

 

Atlanta needs HE with dmg and module/fire.    and even then its averaging 19k dmg....at tier 7..

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20150805a/average_ship.html

 

 

 

 

BB with AP is hardly skill ammo when it pens cruisers at ANY ANGLE

[VTAdmiral]

HE is fine right now.

ships like Atlanta have nothing but HE as their AP is that bad.

even cruisers need HE to fight BBs. 

 

the 2 shells are equal and have their own place.

 

AP is for shooting cruisers (or BBs if your in a BB)  and HE is for all else.

 

 

AP is not skill ammunition, its situational gamble ammo.

 

 

no need for a 3rd shell.  as BBs seem to have enough trouble learning to shoot 2 shells(use HE ffs)

 

High Explosive...

Deals reasonably high damage that cannot be mitigated by the targeted player beyond "don't get hit"

Causes fires with regularity - More damage

Disables secondary batteries

Disables anti-air

Disables main battery turrets

Disables torpedo launchers

Disables steering

Disables engines

 

Meanwhile, Armor Piercing...

Deals significant damage if shell dispersion permits it both to penetrate as well as actually strike the citadel

Can be mitigated by the targeted ship by practicing angling, diminishing or outright eliminating incoming damage entirely

May disable main battery turrets (shared with HE)

Deals minimal damage through arbitrary over-penetrations, even if it would otherwise be a citadel hit.

 

You don't feel that HE does too much for too little?

[Guardian54]

Fires are quite cancerous ATM, even though I have played my South Carolina exactly twice so far. It's a matter of "fire, fires everywhere" despite my best work at dodging... since the circular scatter instead of almost linear as it should be (only range is off, not side to side position to any significant level) makes my evasives easy to still get a few hits in on by, say, a st louis.

 

And I can't back down easily, because otherwise my team's cruisers die too fast or my accuracy can't do enough.

[donaldEpott]

Yes with their video AP or HE I got that same impression that they were fostering a game where skill plays less of a factor so they can come out and say....See it was RNG.

[VTAdmiral]

Who has that video of a full-health ... I think it was a Nagato being burned down by an Atlanta in under a minute? While shell dispersion refused to permit the Nagato to land any hits on it, or useless over-pens.

 

HE is broken as hell and needs to be looked at. I believe separating it into a damaging "General Purpose" and a disabling "High Explosive" is the best option.

[Strike_Witch_Tomoko]

 

Reasonably high damage that cannot be mitigated by the targeted player beyond "don't get hit"

Causes fires with regularity - More damage

Disables secondary batteries

Disables anti-air

Disables main battery turrets

Disables torpedo launchers

Disables steering

Disables engines

 

You don't feel that HE does too much for too little?

 

considering that a BB's AP can hit for 10k.  and literally 2-3 shot any cruiser.

 

considering that fires lock down carriers, and if you don't cause a fire then it will launch endless waves of planes at you. (and yet fire on its own wont kill the carrier fast.  specially as it repairs the first fire.  you still need HE dmg)

 

 

 

also. AP disables stuff as well. and is much better at disabling high hp modules like main guns, engine, and torp tubes.

 

 

so lets see....

AP

extremely high dmg or low dmg.  gamblers ammo. capable of 2-3 shooting ships

Disables secondary batteries

Disables anti-air

Disables main battery turrets (and has a much better chance of doing this than HE)

Disables torpedo launchers  (and has a much better chance of doing this than HE)

Disables steering

Disables engines  (and has a much better chance of doing this than HE)

 

HE

High dmg vs cruisers and DDs.  but low to no dmg vs BBs    YES. just like AP. HE can do no dmg if it hits a module or an armored section

 

Causes fires with regularity(5% to 16%. compared to 26% to 34% for BBs) - More damage(provided they don't repair)

Disables secondary batteries

Disables anti-air

Disables main battery turrets

Disables torpedo launchers

Disables steering

Disables engines

 

 

Who has that video of a full-health ... I think it was a Nagato being burned down by an Atlanta in under a minute? While shell dispersion refused to permit the Nagato to land any hits on it, or useless over-pens.

 

HE is broken as hell and needs to be looked at. I believe separating it into a damaging "General Purpose" and a disabling "High Explosive" is the best option.

if HE is broken as hell. why do BBs still have the highest avg dmg at every tier!

 

if HE and AP were balanced. ships that rely on HE would have same avg dmg as ships(BBs) that rely on AP

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20150805a/average_ship.html

[Carrier_GrafZeppelin]

I'm all for a third ammo type...

 

As a BB player, I find HE to be a massive pain in my A$$. Every enemy I seem to fight, be it BB, DD, CL/CA, shoots HE at me, and there's little I can do. For DDs and Cruisers, I understand it, since they can't effectively get through my armor, but for a fellow BB to be using HE against me is stupid.

 

Yet, as someone who also plays Cruisers, I see why HE is the default choice. HE provides reliable damage against all targets...

 

A shell with the damage of HE, but the damage drop-off of AP would be a great shell, because it would remove the ability for people to consistently do damage, with no regard for where they are actually shooting... 

[crzyhawk]

HE should not bounce, but I think the chance to start fires should be significantly nerfed along with the damage.  IMO, HE should be knocking out modules rather than killing ships.  The ships need more mechanics such as the engine and rudder which can be knocked out.  For example, knocking out fire control should cut range in half.  Knocking out the director doubles dispersion.  Another module might damage the ammunition feeding mechanism, and cause loading time to be doubled.  yet another might cut power assist to the turrets, so guns need to be trained by hand...double turret turning speed.

 

Those are the kinds of things that HE WOULD damage, and the kind of effects they WOULD have.  There should be SOME damage, but it shouldn't be as much as it is now, and it shouldnt be turning battleships into raging infernos.

[VTAdmiral]

 

considering that a BB's AP can hit for 10k.  and literally 2-3 shot any cruiser.

 

considering that fires lock down carriers, and if you don't cause a fire then it will launch endless waves of planes at you. (and yet fire on its own wont kill the carrier fast.  specially as it repairs the first fire.  you still need HE dmg)

 

<snip>

 

if HE is broken as hell. why do BBs still have the highest avg dmg at every tier!

 

if HE and AP were balanced. ships that rely on HE would have same avg dmg as ships(BBs) that rely on AP

 

You're focusing on the wrong things.

 

HE doesn't do more damage than AP and I never said it did. The problem is the frustration of being unable to do anything about it while a Cleveland or Atlanta or Mogami fires 30 shells per minute at you, lighting 4 fires, crippling your engines and rudder, and knocking out most of your ability to fight while steadily killing you because the damage is (except for BBs) only about 1000 different between HE and AP. You use your repair but the enemy player can just continue spamming to do it all over again because using HE is utterly brainless.

 

Also your point about "being unable to attack carriers" under this change is baseless. You can still fire High Explosive to light fires on carriers. You'd just switch back to General Purpose to cause damage once he's burned his repair and is re-lit.

[RogueFlameHaze]

IMO they just have to increase the damage a bit on overpen's. Sometimes you get them so often in a bb its sad, just hitting for 1-2k damage per shell and then having a 30 second reload while you pray to RNGesus.

[DemonsofRazgriz]

screw you BB players, this third ammo type would benefit DDs the most lol to think of not getting 2k rolls per shell AND losing engines, rudder, guns, AA, my captain, my captains parrot, my rum and my faith in just 2 salvos lol

[Strike_Witch_Tomoko]

 

You're focusing on the wrong things.

 

HE doesn't do more damage than AP and I never said it did. The problem is the frustration of being unable to do anything about it while a Cleveland or Atlanta or Mogami fires 30 shells per minute at you, lighting 4 fires, crippling your engines and rudder, and knocking out most of your ability to fight while steadily killing you because the damage is (except for BBs) only about 1000 different between HE and AP. You use your repair but the enemy player can just continue spamming to do it all over again because using HE is utterly brainless.

 

Also your point about "being unable to attack carriers" under this change is baseless. You can still fire High Explosive to light fires on carriers. You'd just switch back to General Purpose to cause damage once he's burned his repair and is re-lit.

 

AP would do as much module dmg as current HE. if not more if cleveland, and mogami shoot it.  then you'd be crying here again.

Atlanta...good fkin luck with its AP at all.  

 

 

 

 

the only thing your idea does is gives BBs. who use pretty much nothing but AP  a bigger advantage than they already have (i did mention they do more on average than other ships of their tiers)

 

(did you notice. while you take away the fire and module dmg from HE.  u left it on AP.   how is that fair?.   heck BBs don't even need fire or module dmg. they do so fkin much with AP)

 

 

would a BB ever use GP or this nerfed HE?  no. cause their AP can blast through a cruiser at ANY angle (cruisers having 76mm hull or less)

 

so whose is nerfed by this?  well. DDs and CAs....aka the ones who do less dmg than BBs. 

CAs already have to switch between AP and HE.  which takes skill to know what kind of ammo to use on what target.

 

how about you nerf AP so that BBs have to switch ammo.

APCR which can hit citadels for the dmg they do.  and hit modules.   but does no dmg at all otherwise.

and AP which can't hurt citadels. but only does overpen or bounce or penetration.

 

 

 

 

 

you seem to think this change would only affect cleveland, mogami, and atlanta.

but what about Atago with its 15 secound reload.  or Mogami(203mm), or Myoko, or Ibuki, or Zao.

or furutaka with its fkin 21 secound reload

 

how about atlanta who barely does any dmg to BBs?!?!?!  is it just going to have to go "oh well now i will do less dmg because i have to use 2 different shells"  when it already does 19k average dmg at tier 7!!!!!!

 

 

you keep whining about BBs taking to much dmg from HE.

and yet they are doing more dmg on average than the HE spammers!!!!!!!!!

 

aka BB is still performing better.

 

 

 

and Cruisers can't exactly use AP to pen BB at any angle. and yet a BB can pen a cruiser AT ANY ANGLE.

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20150805a/average_ship.html

[RogueFlameHaze]

screw you BB players, this third ammo type would benefit DDs the most lol to think of not getting 2k rolls per shell AND losing engines, rudder, guns, AA, my captain, my captains parrot, my rum and my faith in just 2 salvos lol

 

upvote for parrot. I cri errytime

[Francois424]

I came up with the same Idea (splitting HE in 2) today around 1pm est, but didn't feel like posting it.

Thank you for doing so.  And I obviously love the Idea.

+1

[DemonsofRazgriz]

I would like the HE split, at least from a DDs point of view like this:

 

• GE as you stated for hunting enemy DDs and bugging CAs
• WP: White Phosphorous rounds for damaging modules and an increased fire chance (lets say 30%?)

 

DD HE is a joke against pretty much any target except enemy DDs but i do agree in splitting ammo types. Currently there is very little reason to switch ammo types. BB? AP, CA? AP/HE on sit, CL? HE/AP on sit, DD? HE

[Strike_Witch_Tomoko]

I would like the HE split, at least from a DDs point of view like this:

 

• GE as you stated for hunting enemy DDs and bugging CAs
• WP: White Phosphorous rounds for damaging modules and an increased fire chance (lets say 30%?)

 

DD HE is a joke against pretty much any target except enemy DDs but i do agree in splitting ammo types. Currently there is very little reason to switch ammo types. BB? AP, CA? AP/HE on sit, CL? HE/AP on sit, DD? HE

 

except it only benefits those who don't have to switch ammo.

aka BBs

 

DDs, CL, and CA would have to switch ammo even more than they already do. (AP being useless vs BBs.  and now HE is half as effective.  which means BBs have more survivability to do more average dmg than they do now) http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20150805a/average_ship.html

 

if HE is cut in half.

BB AP needs to be nerfed as well so that BBs have to switch ammo like everyone else.    BB already does more on average than all other ships.

or BB AP needs to lose some of its alpha so that it can't use that as its only ammo.

[VTAdmiral]

 

except it only benefits those who don't have to switch ammo.

aka BBs

 

DDs, CL, and CA would have to switch ammo even more than they already do. (AP being useless vs BBs.  and now HE is half as effective.  which means BBs have more survivability to do more average dmg than they do now)

 

if HE is cut in half.

BB AP needs to be nerfed as well so that BBs have to switch ammo like everyone else.    BB already does more on average than all other ships.

 

BBs don't switch ammo because they're never going to hit the things that they'd have to switch ammo for anyway.

 

Have you ever tried to hit a destroyer with battleship guns? It's only going to happen at extremely close range, assuming he isn't moving faster than your guns can traverse. And if he ambushes you while you have AP loaded, do you think your 30 second reload is going to let you switch ammo types in the time you have left to live?

 

AP does a lot of damage in citadel hits, I never denied that. But AP can also be negated by angling armor. My HOSHO has bounced AP rounds from a Miyogi, so don't tell me they can pen at any angle because that's just not true.

[DemonsofRazgriz]

 

except it only benefits those who don't have to switch ammo.

aka BBs

 

DDs, CL, and CA would have to switch ammo even more than they already do. (AP being useless vs BBs.  and now HE is half as effective.  which means BBs have more survivability to do more average dmg than they do now) http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20150805a/average_ship.html

 

if HE is cut in half.

BB AP needs to be nerfed as well so that BBs have to switch ammo like everyone else.    BB already does more on average than all other ships.

or BB AP needs to lose some of its alpha so that it can't use that as its only ammo.

 

Sry i meant only DDs get HE split. Tho i agree, BBs should get a AP split, this game is too simple. Its could use some complexity

[VTAdmiral]

I'm pretty certain the answer will be "no change at all" but what would you do about HE's current state of being utterly broken, Tomoko?

[Strike_Witch_Tomoko]

 

BBs don't switch ammo because they're never going to hit the things that they'd have to switch ammo for anyway.

 

Have you ever tried to hit a destroyer with battleship guns? It's only going to happen at extremely close range, assuming he isn't moving faster than your guns can traverse. And if he ambushes you while you have AP loaded, do you think your 30 second reload is going to let you switch ammo types in the time you have left to live?

 

AP does a lot of damage in citadel hits, I never denied that. But AP can also be negated by angling armor. My HOSHO has bounced AP rounds from a Miyogi, so don't tell me they can pen at any angle because that's just not true.

 

tell me, how much armor do IJN Cruisers have?

think they can bounce a BB shell at ANY angle?

 

yes Cruisers AP bounces. crusier AP bounces BBs and even cruisers non stop.  but BB AP doesn't except on other BBs.

 

no.  the most a cruiser can hope for is it hits some no dmg area.  cause otherwise it will pen.

 

if HE is nerfed.

AP needs to be nerfed so that BB doesn't gain MORE average dmg than it already has

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20150805a/average_ship.html

 

 

 

AP on a BB isn't skill ammo.   cause they use it on everything.

 

only ships AP is skill ammo on is cruisers as AP isn't capable of doing much other than citadelling cruisers.   or hitting BBs at a VERY NARROW ANGLE(so narrow at a certain distance its not worth it.  BB don't have to worry about that)

 

 

 

[VTAdmiral]

 

tell me, how much armor do IJN Cruisers have?

think they can bounce a BB shell at ANY angle?

 

yes Cruisers AP bounces. crusier AP bounces BBs and even cruisers non stop.  but BB AP doesn't except on other BBs.

 

no.  the most a cruiser can hope for is it hits some no dmg area.  cause otherwise it will pen.

 

if HE is nerfed.

AP needs to be nerfed so that BB doesn't gain MORE average dmg than it already has

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20150805a/average_ship.html

 

 

 

AP on a BB isn't skill ammo.   cause they use it on everything.

 

only ships AP is skill ammo on is cruisers as AP isn't capable of doing much other than citadelling cruisers.   or hitting BBs at a VERY NARROW ANGLE(so narrow at a certain distance its not worth it.  BB don't have to worry about that)

 

 

 

 

IJN cruisers have enough ammo to bounce Battleship AP if angled appropriately. Furutaka's is the thinnest and her angling has to be severe, but they can all do it.

 

AP on battleships is a skill ammo because-- Yes, they do use it on everything, but unless you use it well it's not going to do anything. You need skill to aim it appropriately.

 

HE will do everything it does regardless of where it hits.

[Strike_Witch_Tomoko]

I'm pretty certain the answer will be "no change at all" but what would you do about HE's current state of being utterly broken, Tomoko?

 

i've addressed this in the HE feedback thread.

 

i'm not against changing fires from the scaled dmg(where it does dmg based on total hp of ship) to a fixed dmg (aka fire dmg from a cruiser does at most 4k dmg.   fire dmg from a BB does at most 10k.   so they are essentially mini citadel hits.....over the course of 45 secounds. so plenty of time to reduce dmg)

 

and i have said BBs need dispersion buff at close range(7km and less)

 

but in the end.  BBs (while frustrating) can't be buffed as they doing more dmg on average than the other classes.

so any buff they get needs a nerf. (aka rebalance)

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20150805a/average_ship.html

 

nerfing all other classes don't fix that as BBs are the top damaging class atm.   that just makes them do more and more dmg on average. (they still frustrating. but now they OP and frustrating.)

 

 

 

IJN cruisers have enough ammo to bounce Battleship AP if angled appropriately. Furutaka's is the thinnest and her angling has to be severe, but they can all do it.

 

AP on battleships is a skill ammo because-- Yes, they do use it on everything, but unless you use it well it's not going to do anything. You need skill to aim it appropriately.

 

HE will do everything it does regardless of where it hits.

 

BB aiming isn't skill. its RNG.   no ammount of "skill" will make more of the shots hit.    and this extreme RNG was put there because they can 2-3 shot cruisers.  in a single salvo. with high hp, armor, and usually range. 

 

IJN hull armor decreases after the Aoba(which is maxed at 76mm.  down to 30mm on Mogami)

which is why they take so much HE dmg.

 

but their citadels become more armored. you don't bounce on them, you hit no dmg zones.

 

and no.

HE does not do dmg anywhere it hits.

it does alot of 0 dmg hits when it hits armored areas.

which is why i put the Atlanta video in it to show you.

 

[DemonsofRazgriz]

 

IJN cruisers have enough ammo to bounce Battleship AP if angled appropriately. Furutaka's is the thinnest and her angling has to be severe, but they can all do it.

 

AP on battleships is a skill ammo because-- Yes, they do use it on everything, but unless you use it well it's not going to do anything. You need skill to aim it appropriately.

 

HE will do everything it does regardless of where it hits.

 

I can attest to this, My Furutaka has bounced New Yorks and Fusos before, but only aiming my bow right at them. I would argue AP is a skill based ammo type and here is why: while technically, you can use it against everything, the overpen mechanic means you have to know what to aim for. a BB player vs 2 DD players and he only uses AP? he would ouright lose as the DD players burn him to the waterline from a distance outside his secondaries range. Another example would be: Enemy BB angling? a bad BB player would fire anyways bouncing and wasting time. A good player would either choose another target or try to get shots to go in from his deck.