Suggesting BB48 as a lower mid-level premium

[Basilean]

I offer BB48 as a candidate to become a premium vessel. It was a most unique ship in the history of naval warfare. BB48 was the last "superdreadnaught", being completed in 1923. It was the last battleship built in the US for nearly two decades. The youngest sister of the Maryland and the Colorado embodied every advance over battleships commissioned or designed before the Battle of Jutland.  BB 48 was the most modern battleship in Pearl Harbor on 7 Dec 1941.

 

Sunk by 6 or 7 torpedoes and 2 heavy bombs in 40 feet of water, BB48 was raised, rebuilt, and returned to service in July 1944. Now looking like the Tennessee and California, except her 8 x 16" (410mm)/45 caliber guns in twin turrets instead of their 8 x 14"(360mm)/50 caliber guns; BB48 also sported massive increase in anti-aircraft/secondary armament. Her 12 x 5"/51 caliber guns were replace by 16 x 5"/38 caliber dual purpose guns. Her 4 x 3" guns and two torpedo mountings were replaced by 40 x Bofors 40 mm guns and 50 x Oerlikon 20 mm cannons. BB48 also had the newest Mark 8 fire control system and advanced air warning radar. BB48's only limitation was top speed of 20 knots.

 

On 25 Oct 1944 at 0304 hours, in the final battleship to battleship action in history, BB 48's SG-1radar spotted the Japanese fleet at 44,000 yards. The Mark 8 reported contact six minutes later. By 0333 hours, the Mark 8 had a firing plot at a range of 30,000 yards. At 0352, BB 48 fired a salvo of 8 AP shells at Japanese battleship Yamashiro still at 22,800 yards away, but well outside the famed Japanese night observation range.

 

By 0402 hours, BB 48 fired sixteen salvos. Intended for shore bombardment duty, only 25% of her ordinance was AP shells. Five of the first six salvos were direct hits and illuminated the target with fire. The first 13 broadsides were fired at the rate of every 41 seconds. 89 AP and 4 high capacity rounds were fired in the ten minute barrage.  Tennessee and California, both with Mark 8 radar, began firing their 14" guns between BB 48's second and third salvos. They fired 139 shells between them. Maryland, using a Mark 4 radar, fired at the waterspouts from the other three ship's shells around the target. Mississippi fired one salvo. Pennsylvania fired none.

 

While the Yamashiro and heavy cruiser Mogami tried to return fire, it was ineffectual. None of the US battleships were damaged. US destroyers and cruisers were continuing attacks begun before the battleships engaged and were probably nearer (and visible) the Japanese observers. Accounts though insist that the Japanese return fire was widely, and wildly, dispersed.

 

The Yamashiro's blip on the radar bloomed at 0411 hours and vanished by 0412 hours. The Japanese cruiser Mogami was heavily damaged but slipped away when the American ships ceased firing. Mogami was sunk aircraft the next morning. A second Japanese fleet of two heavy cruisers, a light cruiser, and 4 destroyers decided not to engage and retreated after witnessing the engagment.

 

My argument for BB 48 to become a premium ship is based upon its unique combination of Mark 8 fire control radar and 8 x 16" (410mm)/45 caliber guns; its unique place as the lead ship in the final battleship to battleship action in history; and the amount of damage delivered by its 16 broadsides within 10 minutes. Its status as a lower mid-tier level ship should be based upon its slow speed and revised primary purpose of shore bombardment and naval ambush tactics.

 

BB 48 was the USS West Virginia.

 

Thoughts?

[danredda1616]

I dont think it really fits low/mid tier. Seeing as the Colorado is a regular tier 7, I expect something like this to be along the lines of a t8 prem. Sounds cool though.

[HowitzerBlitzer]

Another great story.

[Basilean]

Thanks,

[Coldt]

Guys, if we wanted to make premiums out of every battleship that had a story there wouldn't be anything left to put in the tree.

[Basilean]

I agree Coldt, but how many battleships actually proved their hardware in battle?

[Noth]

Guys, if we wanted to make premiums out of every battleship that had a story there wouldn't be anything left to put in the tree.

 

What goes into the trees are the classes. What typically becomes premiums are specific ships (some exceptions apply). Then you can have the Colorado class in the tree, and West Virginia as a premium, Kongo in the main tree and Hiei as a premium, and so on.

[PotatoPeeler]

Like how  we have the Wyoming in the tree and the Arkansas as a Prem

[Fuzzyhead12]

would work as T8 or T7 depends on amor and speed, premium vessel, since the tirpitz is T8 prem

 

[donaldEpott]

I am one who would love to see the West Virginia as a Premium ship. I however think it would be fine at tier 7 or 8 depending on what they do to it. If They buff the hitpoints and Accuracy it would be a nice counter point for the Tirpitz at Tier 8

[Arcolin06]

As discussed in a previous thread on the same subject, I'm strongly in favor of BB48 (1944) as a tier VIII premium.  The Weevee could be made different from the North Carolina by giving it:

 

Better AA than North Carolina.  Weevee had absolutely absurd numbers of Bofors and Oerlikons after her post-Pearl rebuild.

 

Improved arty compared to the Colorado, but less than the North Carolina.  She had the same 8x16" main armament as Colorados, but her barbette secondaries were upgraded to 16x5" dual purpose guns in eight twin mounts.  That's still less than North Carolina's 9x16" and 20x5", so her raw firepower should be less than the Showboat.

 

Greater range and accuracy than the North Carolina.  Both had Mark 8 fire control systems for their main armament in 1944, but the North Carolina's secondaries were controlled by older Mark 3 and Mark 4 systems.  The WeeVee had a long history of gunnery excellence between the wars, repeatedly winning Navy gunnery trophies.  Finally, there's WeeVee's performance at Suriago Strait.  WeeVee was the first BB to pick up the Japanese on radar, the first to develop a firing solution and the first to fire.  She hit Yamashiro with her first salvo at over 20,000 meters, scoring hits on five of her first six salvos. 

 

In return I'd make WeeVee maneuver like a Colorado.  After her rebuild she was wider (she could no longer fit through the Panama Canal).  Even with totally rebuilt propulsion she was still a Standard Battleship when it came to speed and was known for riding low in the water (meaning she was heavy).

 

In game terms she'd be a long range gunnery platform, something the US line generally lacks.  It'd give her a unique role in the line without being overpowering, and being a premium it wouldn't steal the Japanese BB line's thunder.

 

While concerns about having every BB represented in game are valid, WeeVee's history was fairly unique and might justify making her a special case for a Premium vessel.  Consider:

 

She was under construction when the Washington Naval Treaty was signed, and was scheduled to be cancelled.  She was saved only because the Japanese insisted on retaining one of their own capital ships scheduled for cancellation.

 

WeeVee was a veteran of Pearl Harbor.  Her skipper earned the Medal of Honor for continuing to command while mortally wounded.  Famously, black Messman 3rd class Doris Miller carried the dying Captain from the bridge and manned an antiaircraft gun he was not trained to fire until it ran out of ammunition; some accounts credit him with shooting down a Japanese airplane.  Miller was awarded the Navy Cross, the Navy's second highest award.  The fact that Miller did not receive the Medal of Honor became a political cause afterwards.

 

WeeVee was fully modernized during her rebuild   Of her sister ships, Maryland wasn't heavily damaged at Pearl and Colorado wasn't present; both received partial refits and got back to sea quickly.  USS Tennessee and USS California received refits similar to the West Virginia.

 

Not only did West Virgina perform well at Suriago Strait, she was Rear Admiral Jesse Oldendorf's flagship.  It's worth noting that Suriago Strait was the world's last battleship versus battleship fight.

 

She was the only BB veteran of Pearl Harbor present at the Japanese surrender at Tokyo Bay.

 

I think that's enough history to make WeeVee stand out from the crowd as a Premium.

 

For the record, I would not support BB48 as a mid tier BB.  The Colorado adequately represents the WeeVee in her pre-Pearl Harbor configuration.

 

Some have suggested the WeeVee configuration could be a final hull and radar upgrade for the Colorado Class.  While certainly possible (and heaven knows the Colorados need help) I think the premium proposal would let WeeVee provide the US BB line with a unique capability.  A Colorado upgrade version would never be an effective long range gunnery platform.  WG would have to keep her less accurate than her Japanese counterparts to keep the national flavor of the two BB lines intact.

 

My two cents.

[PcolaTy_1]

My two cents on this subject would be to have both:

 

1) West Virginia be a premium ship like the Arkansas Beta is.

2) Have the West Virginia hull be a final upgrade for the Colorado Class

[Basilean]

Thank you everyone for your comments. I appreciate all the positive feedback and support for the proposal. I've been wanting to offer it early in the process of this game so that those who have such decisions have time to consider the idea and do it justice if they accept it.

 

I appreciate the caution that Coldt tossed in. I would never want one of my ideas to turn out to be a turkey because it wasn't vetted properly. He's right that premium status shouldn't be handed out like candy. I don't want the USS West Virginia to be anything but meaningful in history or in this game.

 

I truly appreciate Arcolin06's response specifically. His added comments on the techinical side are spot on. His rational for the WeeVee's unique position in history appeal to my 30-some years as a historian. The added mention of the captain's final actions and Doris Miller's several actions during the battle of Pearl Harbor honors my original post. Thank you so much.

[donaldEpott]

Like how  we have the Wyoming in the tree and the Arkansas as a Prem

 

Yes just what CV players need. A stock BB at tier 7 or 8 with no AA.

[Basilean]

Some further thoughts on how unusual battleship to battleship combat was. Only 9 such battles were fought in WWII. Five of those were between the British and Germans in 1940 and 1941, before the US entered the war. The earliest actually involved the longest hit by one battleship on another that was moving (estimated at 26,000 yds). Two engagements involved the Bismarck. The US navy fought three BB v BB engagements: one in the Atlantic and two in the Pacific. Interestingly, the Battle for Casablanca and the Naval Battle for Guadalcanal took place one week apart. These two battles were fought with three new US battleships only months after their commissionings.

 

The Battle of Surigao Strait occured almost 2 years after the previous American actions. Obviously the lessons learned in the earlier battles with Bismarck and Hood, Kirishima and South Dakota, and Washington's assault on Kirishima were taken to heart by Admiral Oldendorf. Using the superior Mark 8 firing control radar and longer range ant-aircraft SG-1 radars on the West Virginia, Tennessee, and California the US Fleet had an answer to Japanese mastery of night engagements at close quarters.

 

Hood and Bismarck attacked almost as soon as they spotted one another at nearly 26,000 yds. In the following minutes the range between ships fell from 26,500 to 15,300 yards. A total of 38 salvos were fired, netting 7 hits. The Bismarck connected on only its 3rd and 5th shots. The third destroyed Hood's fire control tower and rendered the Hood competely incapable of hitting anything. The Prince of Wales hit the Bismarck 3 times. Prinz Eugen hit Hood twice.

 

While the wounded South Dakota was blinded by searchlights from cruiser, silhouetted against the flames of 5 burning US destroyers, and being pounded my the Kirishima and Japanese cruisers, Washington slipped to within 9,000 yards of Kirisima before unleashing salvos of 16" shells. Of 39 fired, 9 scored hits according to Japanese records (US estimated 8 hits). The Japanese used their advantage of a superb visual observation range finding system to great effect when the South Dakota lost electrical power and therefore communication and fire control.

 

At Surigao Strait, the Americans knew where the Japanese fleet was long enough to have exact fire plots. This meant the Americans could pick their time of attack, unlike the encounter between Bismarck and Hood. Like the battle between the Kirishima and the South Dakota and Washington, cruisers and destroyers did much of the damage before the battleships became involved. Half the Japanese force in the Strait had been harassed by torpedoes and shelling by smaller American warships. Finally, the Americans engaged before the Japanese night fighting capability could be employed. The combination of accurate, long-range radar and long-range, heavy caliber guns achieved a ratio of hits upon Japanese battleships that none of the earlier battles had managed.

[Gasboy]

If they are going to do a premium of the Colorado, they will at minimum put it at the Colorado's tier.

 

With the Arkansas Beta as a yardstick, chances are a Colorado premium will be at one of the first two set hull levels.

[Gasboy]

At Surigao Strait, the Americans knew where the Japanese fleet was long enough to have exact fire plots. This meant the Americans could pick their time of attack, unlike the encounter between Bismarck and Hood. Like the battle between the Kirishima and the South Dakota and Washington, cruisers and destroyers did much of the damage before the battleships became involved. Half the Japanese force in the Strait had been harassed by torpedoes and shelling by smaller American warships. Finally, the Americans engaged before the Japanese night fighting capability could be employed. The combination of accurate, long-range radar and long-range, heavy caliber guns achieved a ratio of hits upon Japanese battleships that none of the earlier battles had managed.

 

You leave out an important bit.  Of the six battleships present on the US side, 1 never fired during the engagement.  The Pennsylvania could not achieve a firing solution.  Another only fired one salvo right at the end of the battle.  A third was only able to fire after she had resolved splashes from the first three battleships to fire.  Those first three battleships were all damaged/sunk at Pearl Harbour, and had received all sorts of updates/upgrades.  That info kind of muddles the tiers up a bit.

[donaldEpott]

If they are going to do a premium of the Colorado, they will at minimum put it at the Colorado's tier.

 

With the Arkansas Beta as a yardstick, chances are a Colorado premium will be at one of the first two set hull levels.

 

The Tirpitz is an upgrade to the Bismarck and its the premium so I wouldn't say that is the path that WG is going to take with all premium ships.

[Basilean]

Gasboy,

 

Iit is the upgrades that I'm promoting to make West Virginia uniquely suited to become a premium ship. After her 1944 rebirth, there wasn't another ship like her. BB 48 no longer looked like a Colorado class ship. It, and the two Tennessee class ships which were rebuilt after Pearl Harbor, benefitted from what was learned during the rapid progress through the North Carolina and South Dakota classes and from those improvements which were being incorporated into the Iowa class.

 

The West Virginia returned to duty in July 1944; after the last of the Iowa class (Missouri, BB 63) was commissioned in June 1944. The West Virginia was being repaired as those four were being constructed. West Virginia, as well as the Tennessee and California were rebuilt in the image of the Iowa class. The major difference between West Virginia and the other two is in the composition of their main armaments. West Virginia carried 8 x 16" guns while the other two carried 12 x 14" guns.

 

The most important gleanings from the Iowa's construction were the radar and fire control systems. Only ships built/refitted in 1943 or later had the SK air search radar. This is what actually picked up the Yamashiro at 42,000 yards, as an SK could actually detect an aircraft at 100 miles. Further, only those three and the Iowa's were fitted with the Mark 8 fire control system. The Mark 8's remarkable accuracy and bearing was possible because the system cycled 10 times per second through a 30 degree arc. Its range of 40,000 yards was identical to the range of 16" guns.

 

So my premise that the 1944 version of the West Virginia be a premium vessel is based on the fact that it alone had both 16" guns, the SK search radar, and the Mark 8 fire control system in any of the 9 WWII battleship on battleship actions.

[Tricericon]

Unfortunately, having WeeVee as premium doesn't make a lot of sense. She's too weak for tier 8, and too strong for a tier 7 premium - she would need to be worse than "tree" Colorado, which seems unlikely.

 

Just replace Colorado's current C hull with WeeVee's, and use it as an excuse to give Colorado another 8000 hp and a dispersion buff.

[Zampy]

So many premiums and I'll go broke

[Destroyer_Atlanta]

 

Yes just what CV players need. A stock BB at tier 7 or 8 with no AA.

yes plz, moar vulnerable BBs , jk that would actually suck lol.

[Basilean]

Tricerion wrote "She's too weak for tier 8, and too strong for a tier 7 premium".

My whole point was that BB 48 was the only pre-Washington Treaty warship of her gun caliber (16") and level of radar sophistication (1944 installation - Mark 8 firing control) to engage an enemy battleship. Her sisters from Pearl Harbor both had 14" guns paired with the same radar. The only other ships with the same radar for the same caliber guns were the North Carolina class who were 18 years younger. Although initially a Colorado by design and a Tennessee look-alike after her rebuild, BB-48 became a smaller, slower North Carolina.