Questions on smoke and visibility

[zilvar]

Hoping someone can clarify how smoke and visibility work because in-game it can seem confusing.

 

I know that smoke pulses and that explains the in-and-out visibility effect when you're cruising parallel to an enemy at full speed.  I don't know the actual effect of smoke.  Does it reduce detection by (half/quarter/third/apples)?  Does it add to the concealment rating?  What is the actual effect if you're in the smoke?

 

How come when I fire my guns, while in smoke, I get detected by something for several seconds, but I can be shot at by things in smoke and never see them pop up?  What's the effect of having a smoke cloud completely between you and a target?  Do other team members with visibility allow you to see around smoke?

 

Frankly, I don't use it much unless I'm dropping it and running directly away from something that wants to eat me, so I'm really unclear on what it really does.

 

Also, does anyone deliberatly run with hydroacoustic when anti-air is available to select?

[CasualCat2001]

 

 

Also, does anyone deliberatly run with hydroacoustic when anti-air is available to select?

I found hydroacoustic underwhelming personally.  It is way too situational.  You have a better chance of needing to swat aircraft than finding yourself close enough to a smoking DD to make it worthwhile.   Of course there is the extended torpedo detection part which in theory has use if you're trying to hunt a DD, but unless the DD is already spotted, the ability didn't seem to have enough duration.

 

As a DD player I'm glad it isn't awesome, but as a CA player it is very meh.

 

edit:  I think I'd rather them have left smoke as it was in CBT and played around with making hydroacoustic viable rather than all the changes they made at once.  It (hyrdoacoustic) could probably use a buff, but only after they fix DDs.

[scruffycavetroll]

Most people are going to fast when they use it. 

[zilvar]

I found hydroacoustic underwhelming personally.  It is way too situational.  You have a better chance of needing to swat aircraft than finding yourself close enough to a smoking DD to make it worthwhile.   Of course there is the extended torpedo detection part which in theory has use if you're trying to hunt a DD, but unless the DD is already spotted, the ability didn't seem to have enough duration.

 

As a DD player I'm glad it isn't awesome, but as a CA player it is very meh.

 

edit:  I think I'd rather them have left smoke as it was in CBT and played around with making hydroacoustic viable rather than all the changes they made at once.  It (hyrdoacoustic) could probably use a buff, but only after they fix DDs.

I have to agree that it feels underwhelming when I'm driving my cruisers (and forget, constantly, to switch the consumable to AA).  If it extended detection by those amounts, it might be cool, but just flat 'you DEFINITELY see THIS far' doesn't really seem to matter much.  I think I used it to good effect once while a Minekazi was hunting me.

[Mayhem1]

Smoke works best while running away. Smoke trails off the rear of the ship when moving and only last for a few seconds. If you fire your guns or AA goes off while in the smoke, you become visible. They can counter that with CAs with the acoustic ping, but that's a 1 shot and done for a few minutes. Never drive a straight line if under fire even in smoke. I can't tell you how many blind shots I have hit while the DD runs into smoke, simply because they stay on the same course as they went into it.

[Rabbican]

You can stay in DD smoke (never be seen) if you full reverse and turn as soon as you pop smoke as long as your AA is off and no ship is with 2km (4km with acoustic search if cd up). You can fire from within the smoke without being spotted, but if they are zoomed in on you they can effectively guess where you are as the shell is visible from the second its fired.

[CasualCat2001]

You can stay in DD smoke (never be seen) if you full reverse and turn as soon as you pop smoke as long as your AA is off and no ship is with 2km (4km with acoustic search if cd up). You can fire from within the smoke without being spotted, but if they are zoomed in on you they can effectively guess where you are as the shell is visible from the second its fired.

 

It seems like you might even be able to use AA in smoke now once the smoke is established.  I know that used to not be the case.

 

Either that or the spotted indicator is broken/bugged.

[Lord_Arcadian]

Hoping someone can clarify how smoke and visibility work because in-game it can seem confusing.

 

I know that smoke pulses and that explains the in-and-out visibility effect when you're cruising parallel to an enemy at full speed.  I don't know the actual effect of smoke.  Does it reduce detection by (half/quarter/third/apples)?  Does it add to the concealment rating?  What is the actual effect if you're in the smoke?

 

How come when I fire my guns, while in smoke, I get detected by something for several seconds, but I can be shot at by things in smoke and never see them pop up?  What's the effect of having a smoke cloud completely between you and a target?  Do other team members with visibility allow you to see around smoke?

 

Frankly, I don't use it much unless I'm dropping it and running directly away from something that wants to eat me, so I'm really unclear on what it really does.

 

Also, does anyone deliberatly run with hydroacoustic when anti-air is available to select?

 

I've run it in my cruisers as my understanding of how the hydro-acoustic works is reveals torps at 2500 and reveals DDs at 3400  (EVEN IN SMOKE).  It's like there was no smoke put up whatsoever.  The problem lies in that most DDs aren't going to be in that range launching torps unless 1) they have a lot of balls and plan to take on the opponent at close quarters, 2.) they come around the corner face to face with an enemy ship or 3.) they are in a CAP and another ship has entered the cap.   I would recommend the AA item vs the Hydro at the moment as CVs are dominating the skies. 

 

Now for smoke - If you pop it, make sure to Press P to turn off your AA batteries.  You will automatically get spotted every time your gun goes off, even in smoke.   I've seen DDs pop their smoke and leave the AA on and the plane nearby gets shot at, revealing the DD.  Blam, one dead DD.   Smoke obstructs the view of every ship (unless enemy planes are positioned over it to reveal your position, making it easier for other ships to take shots).  Good players will fire into the smoke where they think you might be headed.   An awesome trick sometimes is to slow your speed, turn your rudder.  I've also seen DDs come to a full stop, wait for a couple of seconds and move on changing their angle away from the enemy.  Smoke was designed as a temporary way for you to drop detection and make a decisive decision - Whether its disengaging, firing torps at possible threats, evading detection, obstructing your enemies view and/or changing your course to avoid that instant death of gunfire.

 

Edited for the question - 

 

I know that smoke pulses and that explains the in-and-out visibility effect when you're cruising parallel to an enemy at full speed.  I don't know the actual effect of smoke.  Does it reduce detection by (half/quarter/third/apples)?  Does it add to the concealment rating?  What is the actual effect if you're in the smoke?

 

If you are running alongside another ship, their "detection" range is shorter, however this doesn't make you immune as their ship will reacquire you as a target depending on the detection range of the vessel.  DDs and Cruisers will have the best ability to make you "flicker" while you remain in their detection range.   Let's say the normal number is 6.  Your smoke might reduce that to 3.  If they are at 3, you will literally "flicker" in and out of detection.  This allows anyone to take a shot at you.  Here's the piece on it:

 

"Terrain can block LoS, so you can use islands or icebergs to avoid getting detected by enemy ships. However, aircraft ignores terrain (except catapult planes which only ignore it up to 4 km) and thus can detect ships that are behind islands or icebergs. Ships can also detect each other via proximity spotting, ignoring LoS. The detection range for proximity spotting is 2 km by default (this can be temporarily raised to 3.48 km by using the Hydroacoustic Search consumable on certain ships). Any ship within the proximity spotting range will be automatically detected even if it's hidden behind terrain or smoke.

 

Smoke screen works in a similar manner as terrain, in which it blocks LoS completely. A ship on one side of the screen will not be able to detect another ship on the other side of the screen unless an ally has an unbroken LoS to the ship on the other side. A ship sitting inside the smoke screen itself will have its LoS blocked in all directions, and can only see enemy ships outside the smoke that is spotted by its allies. Smoke works differently for aircraft, while it can spot ships that are on the other side of a smoke screen it cannot detect ships that are sitting inside the smoke itself even if it flew directly overhead the ship. The ship's AA can even fire on the aircraft (provided that another ally has spotted the aircraft for it) and still remain undetected within the smoke."

 

Their explanation says you can fire on aircraft without being detected.  Don't bet on this.  Play it safe and avoid firing your guns (or at least keep in mind, when you fire, you will be detected briefly allowing others to shoot you).

 

Hope that helps

[zilvar]

Now for smoke - If you pop it, make sure to Press P to turn off your AA batteries.  You will automatically get spotted every time your gun goes off, even in smoke.   

 

Thanks.  How do you explain the times where that doesn't happen?  So, I dunno, a week or so ago I'm zipping around a cap and someone drops smoke.  For the next 30 seconds, there are shots popping out of the smoke landing way too close to my dodging self to have been blind, but nobody was ever visible.

 

What combination of circumstances allow one-way visibility through a smoke cloud and perfect concealment when firing?  In my preemptive defense, I didn't just happen to be looking away when the shots were fired and miss the DD popping up.  I was staring at the smoke cloud hoping for a chance to retaliate and dodging as best I could when the shots showed up mid-flight.

[WarFalcon1]

 

Thanks.  How do you explain the times where that doesn't happen?  So, I dunno, a week or so ago I'm zipping around a cap and someone drops smoke.  For the next 30 seconds, there are shots popping out of the smoke landing way too close to my dodging self to have been blind, but nobody was ever visible.

 

What combination of circumstances allow one-way visibility through a smoke cloud and perfect concealment when firing?  In my preemptive defense, I didn't just happen to be looking away when the shots were fired and miss the DD popping up.  I was staring at the smoke cloud hoping for a chance to retaliate and dodging as best I could when the shots showed up mid-flight.

 

He was using shared vision to see you. Just like you can see a DD that is out of your detection range but is detected by planes or other ships, he can see you because you are detected by other ships. It was not his "vision" that saw you. It was another ship had you in detection range and the "team vision" that WoWs employs allowed him to see you.

[Lord_Arcadian]

 

Thanks.  How do you explain the times where that doesn't happen?  So, I dunno, a week or so ago I'm zipping around a cap and someone drops smoke.  For the next 30 seconds, there are shots popping out of the smoke landing way too close to my dodging self to have been blind, but nobody was ever visible.

 

What combination of circumstances allow one-way visibility through a smoke cloud and perfect concealment when firing?  In my preemptive defense, I didn't just happen to be looking away when the shots were fired and miss the DD popping up.  I was staring at the smoke cloud hoping for a chance to retaliate and dodging as best I could when the shots showed up mid-flight.

 

It's the detection range and LoS blocking from the smoke.  If you are close enough to detect them, when they fire they will get revealed and thus revealed to those around you.   Since WG is stating approximately 2K, then all your bonuses on that, that will determine whether you get the "flickering" of the target.  

[Lord_Arcadian]

 

He was using shared vision to see you. Just like you can see a DD that is out of your detection range but is detected by planes or other ships, he can see you because you are detected by other ships. It was not his "vision" that saw you. It was another ship had you in detection range and the "team vision" that WoWs employs allowed him to see you.

 

Correct, he can "see" you due to his teammates being able to "see" you.

[Rabbican]

 

Thanks.  How do you explain the times where that doesn't happen?  So, I dunno, a week or so ago I'm zipping around a cap and someone drops smoke.  For the next 30 seconds, there are shots popping out of the smoke landing way too close to my dodging self to have been blind, but nobody was ever visible.

 

What combination of circumstances allow one-way visibility through a smoke cloud and perfect concealment when firing?  In my preemptive defense, I didn't just happen to be looking away when the shots were fired and miss the DD popping up.  I was staring at the smoke cloud hoping for a chance to retaliate and dodging as best I could when the shots showed up mid-flight.

 

If you have an acquisition mod or captain skill there could be an instance where you are spotted in smoke at 2.4 or 2.8k or further with acouatic CD 3-4ish Km out.  You can be spotted in smoke without being able to see out.  I'm pretty sure that AA being on in smoke still makes you detected will have to test today after work.   

 

That situation you described in the first paragraph where the person in the smoke had vision out, happens when your allies ships or planes are spotting for you, and remember I'd you are on a gun fight with another DD your are very easy to see from a huge distance until you stop firing and even then it takes about 3-5 seconds to lose penalty.  Also good players can guess pretty well where another ship is for a few volleys.

[Lord_Arcadian]

 

He was using shared vision to see you. Just like you can see a DD that is out of your detection range but is detected by planes or other ships, he can see you because you are detected by other ships. It was not his "vision" that saw you. It was another ship had you in detection range and the "team vision" that WoWs employs allowed him to see you.

 

http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/37586-wows-vision-mechanics-explained/

 

Read their guide on the vision mechanics.  It will really help you understand what's going on.

[Lord_Arcadian]

 

If you have an acquisition mod or captain skill there could be an instance where you are spotted in smoke at 2.4 or 2.8k or further with acouatic CD 3-4ish Km out.  You can be spotted in smoke without being able to see out.  I'm pretty sure that AA being on in smoke still makes you detected will have to test today after work.   

 

That situation you described in the first paragraph where the person in the smoke had vision out, happens when your allies ships or planes are spotting for you, and remember I'd you are on a gun fight with another DD your are very easy to see from a huge distance until you stop firing and even then it takes about 3-5 seconds to lose penalty.  Also good players can guess pretty well where another ship is for a few volleys.

 

Aye, the guide says you won't be detected shooting your AA.  I'm pretty sure you do as well.  At least SA is telling me I'm detected.   lol

[Ov3rl0rd]

 

Aye, the guide says you won't be detected shooting your AA.  I'm pretty sure you do as well.  At least SA is telling me I'm detected.   lol

 

That is because you were outside the radius of the smoke. If you are directly inside smoke, you can't be spotted at all except for 2 km proxy spotting.

[CasualCat2001]

 

It seems like you might even be able to use AA in smoke now once the smoke is established.  I know that used to not be the case.

 

Either that or the spotted indicator is broken/bugged.

Above is what I thought.

 

 

I've run it in my cruisers as my understanding of how the hydro-acoustic works is reveals torps at 2500 and reveals DDs at 3400  (EVEN IN SMOKE).  It's like there was no smoke put up whatsoever.  The problem lies in that most DDs aren't going to be in that range launching torps unless 1) they have a lot of balls and plan to take on the opponent at close quarters, 2.) they come around the corner face to face with an enemy ship or 3.) they are in a CAP and another ship has entered the cap.   I would recommend the AA item vs the Hydro at the moment as CVs are dominating the skies. 

 

Now for smoke - If you pop it, make sure to Press P to turn off your AA batteries.  You will automatically get spotted every time your gun goes off, even in smoke.   I've seen DDs pop their smoke and leave the AA on and the plane nearby gets shot at, revealing the DD.  Blam, one dead DD.   Smoke obstructs the view of every ship (unless enemy planes are positioned over it to reveal your position, making it easier for other ships to take shots).  Good players will fire into the smoke where they think you might be headed.   An awesome trick sometimes is to slow your speed, turn your rudder.  I've also seen DDs come to a full stop, wait for a couple of seconds and move on changing their angle away from the enemy.  Smoke was designed as a temporary way for you to drop detection and make a decisive decision - Whether its disengaging, firing torps at possible threats, evading detection, obstructing your enemies view and/or changing your course to avoid that instant death of gunfire.

 

Edited for the question - 

 

I know that smoke pulses and that explains the in-and-out visibility effect when you're cruising parallel to an enemy at full speed.  I don't know the actual effect of smoke.  Does it reduce detection by (half/quarter/third/apples)?  Does it add to the concealment rating?  What is the actual effect if you're in the smoke?

 

If you are running alongside another ship, their "detection" range is shorter, however this doesn't make you immune as their ship will reacquire you as a target depending on the detection range of the vessel.  DDs and Cruisers will have the best ability to make you "flicker" while you remain in their detection range.   Let's say the normal number is 6.  Your smoke might reduce that to 3.  If they are at 3, you will literally "flicker" in and out of detection.  This allows anyone to take a shot at you.  Here's the piece on it:

 

"Terrain can block LoS, so you can use islands or icebergs to avoid getting detected by enemy ships. However, aircraft ignores terrain (except catapult planes which only ignore it up to 4 km) and thus can detect ships that are behind islands or icebergs. Ships can also detect each other via proximity spotting, ignoring LoS. The detection range for proximity spotting is 2 km by default (this can be temporarily raised to 3.48 km by using the Hydroacoustic Search consumable on certain ships). Any ship within the proximity spotting range will be automatically detected even if it's hidden behind terrain or smoke.

 

Smoke screen works in a similar manner as terrain, in which it blocks LoS completely. A ship on one side of the screen will not be able to detect another ship on the other side of the screen unless an ally has an unbroken LoS to the ship on the other side. A ship sitting inside the smoke screen itself will have its LoS blocked in all directions, and can only see enemy ships outside the smoke that is spotted by its allies. Smoke works differently for aircraft, while it can spot ships that are on the other side of a smoke screen it cannot detect ships that are sitting inside the smoke itself even if it flew directly overhead the ship. The ship's AA can even fire on the aircraft (provided that another ally has spotted the aircraft for it) and still remain undetected within the smoke."

 

Their explanation says you can fire on aircraft without being detected.  Don't bet on this.  Play it safe and avoid firing your guns (or at least keep in mind, when you fire, you will be detected briefly allowing others to shoot you).

 

Hope that helps

Vision mechanics guide supports it.

 

 

If you have an acquisition mod or captain skill there could be an instance where you are spotted in smoke at 2.4 or 2.8k or further with acouatic CD 3-4ish Km out.  You can be spotted in smoke without being able to see out.  I'm pretty sure that AA being on in smoke still makes you detected will have to test today after work.   

 

That situation you described in the first paragraph where the person in the smoke had vision out, happens when your allies ships or planes are spotting for you, and remember I'd you are on a gun fight with another DD your are very easy to see from a huge distance until you stop firing and even then it takes about 3-5 seconds to lose penalty.  Also good players can guess pretty well where another ship is for a few volleys.

I'm pretty sure it was that way once in CBT; not sure when they changed it.  Just tested it though:

Amusing side note, the bot CV in this video torpedoed itself shortly before the start of this clip.

[Lord_Arcadian]

 

That is because you were outside the radius of the smoke. If you are directly inside smoke, you can't be spotted at all except for 2 km proxy spotting.

 

Got it -  thanks!  I knew there was something going on, I just play it safe and don't turn it on.  No need to hand out a free shot to the enemy hehe

[Lord_Arcadian]

I'm pretty sure it was that way once in CBT; not sure when they changed it.  Just tested it though:

Amusing side note, the bot CV in this video torpedoed itself shortly before the start of this clip.

 

Thanks!  So it was changed from CBT to OBT.  I know in CBT you were detected all the time when firing. Gotta love bots lol

 

Edited:  saw the proximity detection there at the end.  Great demonstration of it too.

[zilvar]

That situation you described in the first paragraph where the person in the smoke had vision out, happens when your allies ships or planes are spotting for you, and remember I'd you are on a gun fight with another DD your are very easy to see from a huge distance until you stop firing and even then it takes about 3-5 seconds to lose penalty.  Also good players can guess pretty well where another ship is for a few volleys.

The vision guide (and my own experiences) suggest that when I'm spotted by another ship, I just show up as a map icon and not on the main display.  I find it...questionable that someone would be able to drop shots that are even remotely accurate on a dodging target from just the map display.

 

(Or, if they can, I don't want them on the other team...really.)

[Lord_Arcadian]

Then I would also add another question to the list:  Is there a best way to lay the smoke screen out?   In that video you are sitting in the smoke.  I think that may be where I'm getting detected by moving around too much within it and actually leaving the radius I've put down for the smoke.

[CasualCat2001]

Then I would also add another question to the list:  Is there a best way to lay the smoke screen out?   In that video you are sitting in the smoke.  I think that may be where I'm getting detected by moving around too much within it and actually leaving the radius I've put down for the smoke.

 

Well now given how it works there isn't a lot of room to move in smoke anymore.  If there aren't planes up you can move and turn very slowly and use it as sort of a concealment wall without staying in it.  If there are planes up though only inside the smoke will you be concealed, at least in my experience.

[Lord_Arcadian]

The vision guide (and my own experiences) suggest that when I'm spotted by another ship, I just show up as a map icon and not on the main display.  I find it...questionable that someone would be able to drop shots that are even remotely accurate on a dodging target from just the map display.

 

(Or, if they can, I don't want them on the other team...really.)

 

Yes, you immediately appear on everyone's map.   Let's say my BB can detect you at 6K.  Your skills are putting you at 5.2K   Another ship passes by at 2K and  "detects" you.  YOU automatically get detected by me even tho my range was being modified by your skill, the moment you are detected, those around you see you through their detection range (my case, 6K).  This is why when one ship sees you, all the other ones that couldn't normally see you, suddenly can.  There is no modifiers now.   If you move out of detection by the other ship, your skills will kick in and I will "lose" you from sight.

 

That is the best way for me to explain it.

 

 

 

[zilvar]

 

Yes, you immediately appear on everyone's map.   Let's say my BB can detect you at 6K.  Your skills are putting you at 5.2K   Another ship passes by at 2K and  "detects" you.  YOU automatically get detected by me even tho my range was being modified by your skill, the moment you are detected, those around you see you through their detection range (my case, 6K).  This is why when one ship sees you, all the other ones that couldn't normally see you, suddenly can.  There is no modifiers now.   If you move out of detection by the other ship, your skills will kick in and I will "lose" you from sight.

 

That is the best way for me to explain it.

 

I get that, I think.  Showing up on the map makes sense.  But people are suggesting that a ship that is able to shoot me and remain invisible in smoke can only see me because other ships have me spotted.  If that's the case, they should only be seeing my map image and nothing on the main display.  I cannot imagine that's correct because sustained accurate fire via map icon seems like the next best thing to impossible to achieve.

[Rabbican]

The vision guide (and my own experiences) suggest that when I'm spotted by another ship, I just show up as a map icon and not on the main display.  I find it...questionable that someone would be able to drop shots that are even remotely accurate on a dodging target from just the map display.

 

(Or, if they can, I don't want them on the other team...really.)

 

The way shared vision works is If the ship is in your gun range they show up just like you are spotting them, if they are outside your gun range they only show up on minimap and can't be targeted or seen while scoped or in regular view.